Re Zero Speed is Messy

[Celestial_Pegasus]

1 step forward, 2 steps backward....

I'm more and more in favor of just using the ex 2 feat to scale Juliua and everyone comparable to her (including the upper divine generals). Then Wilhelm, Kurgan, Theresia, and ex 4 Cecilus would be roughly 1.5–2x that or so.

Wilhelm from memory at the beginning of Ex Novel 3 faces all the knights of the kingdoms and beats them by himself, with only the likes of Grimm being able to somewhat react to him, so i guess it's an option, though this wasn't too long after his fight with Theresia, so idk if it was Peak or not.

I am strongly against Emilia being relativistic, though. It's far too great of an outlier. Especially when she couldn't even track kid Cecilus’ movements when he was at a great distance away up in the sky. The fact that we are even debating if Elsa would still scale to her just goes to show how great of an outlier it would be. There has been no indication she has grown physically stronger as far as I'm aware, just magically. Frederica should have comparable physical stats.

I thought we went over this, perception speed isn't equal to reaction speed. Priscilla was also able to react to Sphinx, but would have to re-look if that if she was under Yorna's Soul Marriage there, and also it was Eugard's Yang Sword which reacted to the attack, who at that point, grew strong enough to threaten Halibel, so probably not a feat worth considering for Emila tier people now that I think about it.

As for the topic of Cecilus’ keys, I believe he should have one for ex 4, one for arc 7 (kid Cecilus up until his buff in his named chapter), and one for arc 8 after his named chapter and after he turns back into an adult.

Topic for another thread.

Anyway now we are back to square 1. I agree there is consistency with the Ex Novel cast being around the Julia feat, as light dodging feats aren't always Relativistic, Sub-Relativistic happens too, so we could take all those feats, as being comparable to Julia's, and I can see why Emilia could be an outlier. So yea I can see this being a valid option too.

Idk if this option considers Ceci having combat speed separate from travel speed though. Would Olbart be Sub-Relativistic?

Side note, now that I think about it, presuming this option goes through, if Marcos is on the level of the Ex Novel/Battle Ballard cast, how does it make sense Roswaal can fight him? He losses to Garfiel at close range, but still have yet to read Once Upon a Time in Lugunica.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

1 step forward, 2 steps backward....


Wilhelm from memory at the beginning of Ex Novel 3 faces all the knights of the kingdoms and beats them by himself, with only the likes of Grimm being able to somewhat react to him, so i guess it's an option, though this wasn't too long after his fight with Theresia, so idk if it was Peak or not.

He wasn’t peak, I think he was in prison for a small amount of time after his duel with Theresia, he’d be the “young Wilhelm” version that we later see fight Kurgan I assume. Yeah only the likes of Grimm could barely react to him somewhat (he blocked 3 blows before going down).

I thought we went over this, perception speed isn't equal to reaction speed. Priscilla was also able to react to Sphinx, but would have to re-look if that if she was under Yorna's Soul Marriage there, and also it was Eugard's Yang Sword which reacted to the attack, who at that point, grew strong enough to threaten Halibel, so probably not a feat worth considering for Emila tier people now that I think about it.


Topic for another thread.

Anyway now we are back to square 1. I agree there is consistency with the Ex Novel cast being around the Julia feat, as light dodging feats aren't always Relativistic, Sub-Relativistic happens too, so we could take all those feats, as being comparable to Julia's, and I can see why Emilia could be an outlier. So yea I can see this being a valid option too.

Idk if this option considers Ceci having combat speed seperate from travel speed though. Would Olbart be Sub-Relativistic?

Side note, if Marcos is on the level of the Ex Novel/Battle Ballard cast, how does it make sense Roswaal can fight him?

I’d always assumed there wasn’t a big stat difference between Roswaal J and Roswaal L so imo Marcos being on that lvl (during this time period) makes sense.

 

[Zabazab]

Side note, now that I think about it, presuming this option goes through, if Marcos is on the level of the Ex Novel/Battle Ballard cast, how does it make sense Roswaal can fight him? He losses to Garfiel at close range, but still have yet to read Once Upon a Time in Lugunica.

Spoiler: Marcos yap

Roswaal says in OUATIL that the last time he witnessed someone as strong as Marcos was during the Demi-Human War. His glancing blows seriously damage Roswaal, and ultimately he gives up instead of being defeated. It's yet another case of "If it's 5m start-distance, Marcos wins. If it's 10m start-distance, Roswaal wins."

Marcos defended against Roswaal’s barrage of attacks head-on, striking with erratic violence. His abilities were excellent— better than anyone he’d come across in the last few decades. You’d have to trace back to the Demi-Human War to find someone as powerful as he was.

I have no scans or confirmation of this next part– @VortechsTG may have the quote– but in the brand-new OUATIL II, Theresia can supposedly behead Marcos with ease, and Wilhelm even near 50 years old hasn't become any weaker since his youth. Again, this is only something I heard.

Anyways, Tappei said during his livewatch of Season 1 that Marcos and Roswaal are equal in strength.

The one speaking with Priscilla is a person known as Marcos Gildark, the captain of the royal guard. His strength is second in the kingdom, after Reinhard. In a regular fight, he's about as strong as Roswaal.

Also, uh, Roswaal blocking attacks from Olbart is maybe(?) an issue? I don't even know at this point.

 

[VortechsTG]

I thought we went over this, perception speed isn't equal to reaction speed.

That is simply not an explaination at all. Let me get this straight, you think she can't perceive these attacks, she's not predicting them by reading Sphinx, and she's not reacting to them on instinct either? Yet she can just magically react despite not even knowing about the attacks? Make it make sense.

 

[Zabazab]

That is simply not an explaination at all. Let me get this straight, you think she can't perceive these attacks, she's not predicting them by reading Sphinx, and she's not reacting to them on instinct either? Yet she can just magically react despite not even knowing about the attacks? Make it make sense.

Having higher reactions than perceptions isn't that crazy. PNS responses 'n all that, given it's a spinal reflex, she just instinctively responded before she understood what was happening.

 

[VortechsTG]

Wilhelm from memory at the beginning of Ex Novel 3 faces all the knights of the kingdoms and beats them by himself, with only the likes of Grimm being able to somewhat react to him, so i guess it's an option, though this wasn't too long after his fight with Theresia, so idk if it was Peak or not.

He should at the very least be comparable to when he fought Kurgan at that point. Not when he dealt the finishing blow but he was already beyond his base state before that.

Topic for another thread.

I wasn't even the one who brought it up.

Would Olbart be Sub-Relativistic?

Absolutely.

Side note, now that I think about it, presuming this option goes through, if Marcos is on the level of the Ex Novel/Battle Ballard cast, how does it make sense Roswaal can fight him? He losses to Garfiel at close range, but still have yet to read Once Upon a Time in Lugunica.

Roswaal is explicitly nerfed right now and Sphinx was trouble for Cecilus despite it being debateable whether she even reached Echidna's level. Imo Roswaal only loses to Garf at close range if he uses his full transformation, which he hasn't used since arc 4 (until arc 8, that is)

Golden fur covered his exposed flesh, his sharp fangs creaked as they began to lengthen, and his body, which Subaru had guessed was on death’s door, was instinctively urging him to transfigure in order to avert that death.
If he transformed into a giant tiger, it might well save his own life. However, if that happened, his healing would be interrupted. Ram would die. His rational mind rejected that, clashing ferociously with his survival instincts.
If he stopped healing their wounds before he transfigured, there still existed some chance both of them might survi—
“—It would be troublesome to let you transfigure, yes?”

 

[VortechsTG]

Having higher reactions than perceptions isn't that crazy. PNS responses 'n all that, given it's a spinal reflex, she just instinctively responded before she understood what was happening.

So it is instinct like you all insisted it wasn't.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Zabazab I honestly just shrug at this point

If Olbart is like 500x faster than Roswaal, even if he know the moves of shinobi's, he would still have to be fast enough to react to it.

@VortechsTG Wasn't Roswaal nerfed because he can't use his normal tactics, of fly high into the sky, and blast from distance, instead was forced to act like a warrior or is there something else I am missing? Transformed Garfiel also is slow compared to 2nd shackle Ram, which apparently is a 2x boost, her base stats aren't drastically different from the mid tiers, which would also mean transforming is not that big of an amp for Garf either.

Rai/Ley from memory went up against 2nd shackle Ram from memory too.

Yea this thread is a mess...

 

[VortechsTG]

If Olbart is like 500x faster than Roswaal, even if he know the moves of shinobi's, he would still have to be fast enough to react to it.

Couldn't it just be only his movement speed that is slower? Echidna and Sphinx also have greater perception speed than their movements.

Wasn't Roswaal nerfed because he can't use his normal tactics, of fly high into the sky, and blast from distance, instead was forced to act like a warrior or is there something else I am missing?

He was forced to give four of his "magics" to Clind, which I interpret as him being reduced to a state where he can only use two-fold magic. That last part is just my opinion, but it is important to note that we know he is nerfed somehow.

Transformed Garfiel also is slow compared to 2nd shackle Ram, which apparently is a 2x boost, her normal stats aren't drastically different from the mid tiers, which would also mean transforming is not that big of an amp for Garf either.

Ram's shackles clearly aren't actually percentages of her full power imo. I do not buy at all that 10% of someone significantly stronger than Puck, and stronger than Sekhmet and Regulus is only Rem tier. Even just her second shackle seems way more than 2x. Julius and Emilia couldn't even scratch the walls of the watchtower and together were completely bodied by Ley but Ram sent cracks up and down the walls with a punch and was a pretty close match for Ley.

 

[Zabazab]

So it is instinct like you all insisted it wasn't.

You suggested it was precog at first, and then warning instinct. We are suggesting it was reflexive instinct, i.e she unconsciously acted to defend herself rather than receiving an "alarm" from her instincts. No matter what, she acted after the light was fired, since a reflex requires stimulus.


Regarding the Julia calc, I don't think it's strange to suggest that the current main combatants, like Emilia, are around the level of mid-Ex2 Grimm, Carol, or Julia. Them & Wilhelm still trained for 3 more years to the start of Ex3, and then grew more during BB.

Transformed Garfiel also is slow compared to 2nd shackle Ram, which apparently is a 2x boost, her normal stats aren't drastically different from the mid tiers

2nd Shackle is described as "Being able to [defeat Beast Garfiel] even with half of her strength." Either way, I think base Garfiel still beats Roswaal in cqc, given he's >= Old Wilhelm who also is stated to beat Roswaal in cqc.


The thread is rapidly making me realize there's A Lot of Re:Zero with so many potential cases of scaling, outliers, changes... I think we need to be very decisive. Purely my opinion here, but I'd suggest taking Roswaal's calc, and having the majority of competent fighters (Julius, Emilia, etc.) scale to that, we have everyone in Arc 8 fighting a faster Sphinx, who could already react to faster versions of the Ex2 cast while on-guard, after all.

I am indifferent to relativistic reactions for mid tiers. If it's preferred, I'll support it, and vice-versa. Superhuman travel speed would also be the case scaling around ground dragons.

Cecilus tier would get MHS+ travel speed and anywhere from relativistic to even FTL combat speed, I don't particularly mind which one, but Cecilus objectively made a joke out of light beams and light danmaku (mist of light, anyone?)

I can only be glad the beautiful god tiers don't need alterations until Season 3 Part II.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

We kinda have to come to an agreement here, cause this thread is rapidly going nowhere. We are already 2 pages in, the longer this goes, the less likely staff will care to follow. If even the fans are still debating this, don't see how it goes well.

Maybe we have to make some sort of compromise with Possibly/Likely ratings somehow. Either that or fall hard on one of the options. Maybe even an option which accepts Sub-Relativistic Ex Novel Cast, and Relativistic reaction for mid tiers? Idk.

 

[Zabazab]

Purely my opinion here

To write it down plainly;

Emilia Tier and up. The relativistic reaction is up to popular vote.

Superhuman travel speed, Sub-Relativistic combat speed, likely Relativistic reaction speed

Olbart/Young Wilhelm Tier (let's ignore Roswaal L. :3). Again, relativistic reactions can stay or go.

Massively Hypersonic+ travel speed, Sub-Relativistic+ combat speed, likely Relativistic reaction speed

Cecilus tier

Massively Hypersonic+ travel speed, Relativistic(+) combat speed, higher reactions + far higher perceptions etc.

 

[VortechsTG]

Maybe we have to make some sort of compromise with Possibly/Likely ratings somehow. Either that or fall hard on one of the options. Maybe even an option which accepts Sub-Relativistic Ex Novel Cast, and Relativistic reaction for mid tiers? Idk.

I would be fine with "possibly sub-relativistic reaction speed" for Emilia. Definitely not for any other mid tier characters like Elsa or Old Wilhelm though.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

That honestly seems pretty good (Zab’s idea)

 

[VortechsTG]

I am strongly opposed to giving Cecilus significantly higher combat speed than Wilhelm. I would be fine with 2x or so. I also don't think we should ignore Roswaal completely. At the very least can't we all agree he can perceive and react to characters like Olbart, Marcos, and Echidna?

 

[Zabazab]

I am strongly opposed to giving Cecilus significantly higher combat speed than Wilhelm. I would be fine with 2x or so.

PoL Wilhelm scales to Cecilus already. Young Wilhelm is inferior.

Also, can I ask why you oppose characters like Emilia scaling to Julia? Sphinx is a fairly good link in the scaling chain to connect Ex2 to the main story.

 

[VortechsTG]

Also, can I ask why you oppose characters like Emilia scaling to Julia? Sphinx is a fairly good link in the scaling chain to connect Ex2 to the main story.

Because Emilia is far below the rest of the cast who fight Sphinx. The only reason Emilia was even able to fight her is because she was low on mana at that point. She would have been trying to use as little as possible.

 

[Zabazab]

Because Emilia is far below the rest of the cast who fight Sphinx. The only reason Emilia was even able to fight her is because she was low on mana at that point. She would have been trying to use as little as possible.

This has no reason to impact her speed. Hell, Spica can 1v1 Sphinx, and Vincent is faster than Sphinx (Vincent can only really be scaled to Priscilla given their positions), and Priscilla of course is comparable to Emilia.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

snip

idk how many times i need to repeat myself here.
Tappei is retconning his old scaling and creating a new one which is Explicitly stated to be "Unrealistic" by his standards
Emilia's feat wouldnt be an outlier anymore if its Tappei's direct intentions

 

[VortechsTG]

idk how many times i need to repeat myself here.
Tappei is retconning his old scaling and creating a new one which is Explicitly stated to be "Unrealistic" by his standards
Emilia's feat wouldnt be an outlier anymore if its Tappei's direct intentions

Can you stop repeating the same arguments over and over? I'm not going to change my mind on this. The characters haven't even become any stronger at all. The fights just had a shift in vibe. Garfiel could shatter mountains back in arc 4. Wilhelm and Valgren cleared the sky. Julia and Carol dodged Jiwald. Just because Tappei has changed his mind on how to write fights does not mean every character suddenly became stronger. Nor does it suddenly mean mid tiers are able to fight extremely high tiers because of this.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

To write it down plainly;

Emilia Tier and up. The relativistic reaction is up to popular vote.


Olbart/Young Wilhelm Tier (let's ignore Roswaal L. :3). Again, relativistic reactions can stay or go.


Cecilus tier

This makes sense, although I think Cecilus should have FTL combat and reaction speed
(Mists of light feat)

 

[VortechsTG]

Snip

In any case I can agree with the Olbart and Cecilus parts of this.

 

[VortechsTG]

In any case I can agree with the Olbart and Cecilus parts of this.

And as I said earlier I am willing to compromise and agree to giving Emilia sub-relativistic reaction speeds. I just want to add that I would be in favor of giving this to Roswaal L. as well.

 

[Zabazab]

And as I said earlier I am willing to compromise and agree to giving Emilia sub-relativistic reaction speeds. I just want to add that I would be in favor of giving this to Roswaal L. as well.

I'm glad we agree on Olbart & Ceci tier. Roswaal would still scale to sub-relativistic I believe.

As for Emilia tier, I think outright Subrel combat speed is perfectly acceptable, she keeps up with Sphinx and even characters like Spica are explicitly equal to Sphinx. This is a Sphinx who has learned the Flow Method, but even in Ex2 she could dodge blows from Julia. I just don't think mid-Ex2 cast is that much better than the Arc 8 main cast at all.

 

[VortechsTG]

As for Emilia tier, I think outright Subrel combat speed is perfectly acceptable, she keeps up with Sphinx and even characters like Spica are explicitly equal to Sphinx.

Sphinx literally bodied Spica and that was before she completed her transformation.

This is a Sphinx who has learned the Flow Method, but even in Ex2 she could dodge blows from Julia.

ok

I just don't think mid-Ex2 cast is that much better than the Arc 8 main cast at all.

They aren't. Emilia is just objectively below most of them.

I'm not going to completely agree to your side. This is already a compromise.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I mean Spica was exchanging blows with Sphinx, of course Sphinx was clearly more skilled, and had the upper hand, but imo there isn't a massive difference between them ie like Supersonic vs Sub-Relativistic

Spoiler: Spica vs Sphnix

Sphinx: [I am surprised. It seems that you have specialties that lie outside the realm of meddling with souls.]


Spica: [Aaau~!?]


Sphinx’s quiet analysis overlapped with Spica’s high-pitched voice of astonishment.


Spica’s astonishment was natural. The blow containing all of her might had indeed been delivered to Sphinx. However, with the single arm Sphinx had raised, she had skillfully parried it.


With her blue eyes wide-open, Spica stared into the golden eyes of the Witch,


Sphinx: [Were you taken aback? My defeat in the Demi-Human War was partly because of my inexperience in martial arts. Taking that into account, I began learning from square one. But then again――]


Spica: [Uu!?]


Sphinx: [There is a limit to the enhancement of abilities that can be yielded through the Flow Method for this replicant body.]


While speaking, Sphinx used the momentum from her parry, and threw Spica down headfirst.


That elegant movement and technique were not something that had been acquired through half-hearted training. As the Witch had confessed herself, she had used her former defeat as a resource to learn from.


It would make anyone think that it was unnecessary to mention the person who had beat the Witch in a fist fight in the past.


Subaru: [Spicaaa!]


Spica: [――Uu~, au!]


As Subaru raised his voice, Spica firmly clenched her teeth.


That moment before her head hit the ground, Spica twisted her body around, and used her body like a cat once more. Gently landing on her knees, Spica nimbly distanced herself from Sphinx.


Spica: [Au!?]


However, Spica’s movements were stopped as she tried to fall back.


Sphinx had caught the sleeve of Spica’s right arm, preventing the latter’s withdrawal. ――Immediately after, the girl and the Witch exchanged glances, and an extremely close-quarters bout of combat commenced.


Spica: [Uu! Au! Aaau~! Aau!]


Each grappling with one arm, Spica and Sphinx engaged in high-level combat with minimal movement.


As Spica desperately swung around blows, Sphinx utilized smooth technique as if to say “the soft controls the hard”, and sometimes, she would interweave magic fired from her fingertips into her counteroffensive.-Arc 8, Chapter 59

If Sphinx was vastly superior there wouldn't even be an exchange of blows, just a blitz and beat down by Sphinx, so personally I am also in agreement with Zab's ratings, though we can get into discussing FTL for Ceci.

Overall I think I probably will redo this whole thread when we have at least a majority consensus here, will have to wait till the Julia calc is evaluated though.

 

[VortechsTG]

I mean Spica was exchanging blows with Sphinx, of course Sphinx was clearly more skilled, and had the upper hand, but imo there isn't a massive difference between them ie like Supersonic vs Sub-Relativistic

If Sphinx was vastly superior there wouldn't even be an exchange of blows, just a blitz and beat down by Sphinx, so personally I am also in agreement with Zab's ratings, though we can get into discussing FTL for Ceci.

I can't deny you do have a point here but this just makes me realize that Sphinx clearly isn't as physically strong or fast as the others are. She said she tried to train because of her defeat but lamented that the body has a limit to what she can do with it. Olbart, on the other hand, did blitz Spica.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Yea, that's kind of a major thing to Sphinx's character, what takes others a short time, takes her a while, pretty sure it took decades if not centuries for her to be able to use decent magic, her base specs aren't that good compared to the cast.

Still there are indeed feats of her reacting to the Ex Novel cast.

Olbart blitzing Spica would be consistent I think, if you think Olbart>Twin Asura, who can keep up with the Battle Ballard cast, who have undergone a timeskip/training. That's what I think Zab's ratings are going for.

In short Spica is somewhere below mach 36000(Julia's feat from ex novel 2, Sub-Relativistic), while Battle Ballard cast with training would have to be above mach 43,000 (Sub-Relativistic+), which is less than a 2x gap, probably like a 1.2 gap.

 

[Zabazab]

Pegasus basically summed up my thoughts on Spica.

As for Emilia, none of this reads to me like she's vastly inferior to Sphinx or the mid-Ex2 characters.

Emilia: “Yeah, true! You know, I fought Madelyn and Mezoreia that time, too, and I made it back without a hitch!”

Otto: “This situation is different from that. What is required is a surprise attack by a small number of elites, and Emilia-sama’s over-the-top… bold fighting style is not suited for that.”

Roswaal: “She has more than enough to make up for that. And if Emilia-sama is there, even if the operation fails, then rebuilding can be incorporated into the operation. She could freeze half of the city, wouldn’t you agree?”

This was an outrageous statement by Roswaal, who held up one finger, but it was not surprisingly over the top.

Emilia’s abilities as a unit were hard to replace, she had a ridiculous amount of Mana that she could provide on her own, and super long-range skills that she could make full use of.

In short, Emilia could turn the battlefield into a snowy landscape all by herself and run around in the extreme cold, all while being cute and energetic. In order to make ideal use of her overwhelming fighting ability, Subaru had devised Ice Brand Arts, which was also recognized by Roswaal.

In fact, there was no doubt that Emilia was one of the Camp’s strongest fighting assets.

After being one of the major participants in the events surrounding Pleiades Watchtower and the decisive battle at the Imperial Capital, keeping Emilia out of harm’s way was not a convincing argument at the moment.

The white light had not been released as a singular shot; rather, chasing after Emilia, as her silver hair danced, was a hot beam of light that sliced through the world, and with it the battle had begun.

Her opponent looked exactly like Echidna, and like Echidna, she seemed to be good at magic as well.

But, the same was true of Emilia.

Emilia: “If that’s what you want to do, then I’m going to give it my all too! After making sure you can’t move, I’m taking you to Subaru and the others!”

Sphinx: “I do not wish to meet them ever again. Hence, I shall take your life here, and ascertain the type of expression Pricilla Barielle would have.”

Emilia: “――! Do you know where Priscilla is?”

As she sliced away the attacks of light released from all directions with a sword of ice that shone like a mirror, Emilia’s amethyst eyes sparkled in response to Sphinx’s words.

She had a feeling that Priscilla would have wanted to head for the Crystal Palace for some reason and would thus be found there, but getting Sphinx to reveal her exact location would be the best.

All the more, Emilia was determined not to lose. Sphinx, who had the same face as Echidna, narrowed her eyes at Emilia’s enthusiasm, and with slight irritation,

Sphinx: “It would be problematic if I failed to secure this area―― Repulsion: Required.”

That, was what she had quietly muttered.

――Let us assert one thing here.
It was a fact that without Emilia’s decisive action, the plan of the Witch, Sphinx, would have come to fruition and the downfall of the Vollachian Empire would have been unavoidable.

Moreover, it was something that no one other than Emilia could have stopped.

Emilia: “――Yah!”

Releasing a sharp exhale, straining her cheeks, Emilia stood firm against the heat rays of light and the balls of light that came in from all directions, repelling all with her polished ice armaments.

The magic of the replica of Echidna before her, Sphinx, was all too astonishing, and the only way she withstood her difficult-to-deflect attacks was by blocking them with ice that shined like a mirror.

Emilia would often be told by Subaru that “Creativity is important!” as well, so she was always particular about the details in her ice-borne weapons, and this time, they were used to their fullest extent.

Thanks to the fact that she always did this, she was able to quickly create weapons that dealt with Sphinx’s magic.

Facing Emilia, Sphinx kept her distance while unleashing her magic. And as she was exposed to said onslaught, Emilia did not feel the impatience of her opponent, the latter devoid of any visible expression.

Originally, Sphinx had sneaked into this deserted place to accomplish something. Emilia had somehow sensed this and rushed in, which was when the battle began.

That had halted Sphinx from accomplishing whatever she had been planning to.

With this in mind, Emilia, though it not being her forte, was focusing intensely on thoroughly obstructing her opponent.

――Here again, Emilia was making the best of a situation that no one else at the Imperial Capital could.

Had Emilia taken Sphinx’s life, the Witch would have taken that memory back to her soul, recognized the threat Emilia posed, and manifested a new body prepared with countermeasures.

However, Emilia had no intention of killing Sphinx, but only of stopping her.

Therefore, the situation Subaru had named Escape by Death did not occur, and Sphinx would not send a new version of herself as reinforcements against the unshared threat of Emilia.

This situation would not have been possible if anyone else had been present, whether it be someone powerful like Cecilus or Halibel, someone wise like Vincent or Roswaal, or even a cheater like Subaru or Al.

No one other than Emilia could have pinned down Sphinx here.

Emilia: “HIYAAA!”

Emilia, who had managed such miraculous meshing by relying on her intuition, nevertheless kicked the light ball away with her ice shoes without being aware of it――

Sphinx clearly isn't as physically strong

Amputated by base Vincent lmao

 

[VortechsTG]

Yea, that's kind of a major thing to Sphinx's character, what takes others a short time, takes her a while, pretty sure it took decades if not centuries for her to be able to use decent magic, her base specs aren't that good.

Still there are indeed feats of reacting to the Ex Novel cast.

Olbart blitzing Spica would be consistent I think, if you think Olbart>Twin Asura, who can keep up with the Battle Ballard cast, who have undergone a timeskip/training. That's what I think Zab's ratings are going for.

In short Spica is somewhere below mach 36000(Julia's feat from ex novel 2), while Battle Ballard cast with training would have to be above mach 43,000, which is less than a 2x gap.

Ah, I see. Well, I used to think that the ex 2 cast grew stronger before BB too but I don't anymore. Garfiel dealt similar damage to Sphinx to Julia, implying they are relatively comparable and I just no longer buy that the strongest demi human from the war would get bodied by Grimm, Carol, or Bordeaux later on. I think they just hit their limit. Wilhelm's training was supposed to push him past his limit after all.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So, what are we doing here?

 

[Zabazab]

So, what are we doing here?

There seems to be general agreement on 1) Rela(+) combat speed Awakened Wil/Ceci-tiers w/MHS+ travel speed, 2) Sub-Rela+ combat speed for Young Wil/Olbart-tiers w/MHS+ (slower) travel speed, and 3) Three agrees and one disagree on Sub-Rela Emilia/Sphinx-tiers w/Superhuman travel.

Basically, Cecilus tiers reacting to light is valid, lightning speed is valid for normal Young Wilhelm tiers and above, and Julia's calc is popular (so it being evaluated is necessary). A scaling chain from Ex2 to the main cast exists through a faster Sphinx, too.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I will post the Julia calc to be evaluated, and then remake this thread when it happens, based on what's agreed here.

In the meantime I guess I will post my next arc 7-8 thread soon, this time focused on ability revisions.