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Pokemon God Revision- Yes its Arceus (And minor stuff for Unown)

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Sniper670

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The purpose of this thread is to deal with the pokedex and non-Pokémon powers, as the Arceus CRT focused way more in the moves themselves rather than those topics, so we decided to organize the arguments in the OP alongside new ones, rather than relying on people finding all of them across 9 pages and dozens of comments, especially since they are directly connected, so they need to be compiled.

Because of that, simply bringing up the CRT will not suffice as those topics were not focused enough, new arguments came and one of the rejected points is being brought up in a different way, so please focus on the OP rather than the last thread

Going off here, and quote:
Something like the idea itself is acceptable but the actually giving someone all the powers in the verse would require a personalized CRT.
So this thread is being made for that purpose

FOUNDATION OF THE UNIVERSE AND ESSENCE / CONCEPT OF TYPES
Let's look at the definition of Essence;

"Essence is the property or set of properties that make an entity or object what it fundamentally is, and without it, ceases to exist as that entity or object."

So, at once we know it's the fundamental building block of something. Alright

Each Plate Contains the Essence of a Type. The Fundamental building blocks of every power that has been shown in the series, or everything at all in the series. The Plates represents aspects of reality, and Pokemon are born to control them. From Essence of Water, Earth, Fire, all the way to Soul, Mind, Normalcy, Darkness and even Fighting Spirit. With this power, Pokemon are able to summon the sun, rain, comets, borrow power from the celestial bodies, create mental worlds, access spiritual worlds amongst many other supernatural things.

I visited several Japanese websites to get the actual context/semantics/nuances behind a statement that was left vague in the English version. This one: “The power of plates is shared amongst Pokemon”. Here is the actual context from Native Japanese Speakers using the Japanese version of that statement. I'm using Deepl, since it’s the accepted translator app on the wiki:

a. みどりのプレート

「うまれてくる ポケモン プレートの ちから わけあたえられる」

⇒アルセウスが他のポケモン達にタイプを与えている描写だと思われます。

Green Plate

"Pokémon that are born can be assigned to any type of Pokémon plate."


This is supposed to be a depiction of Arceus giving types to other Pokémon. (https://3secondsgameover.com/e/pokekousatsu05)

b. その次の生まれてくるポケモンのくだりで分け与えられた力は、ポケモンのタイプであると考えられる

The power shared by the Pokémon born after that is considered to be the Pokémon's type. (https://deoxi.at.webry.info/200705/article_11.html)

c. プレートの力(=タイプ)はすべてアルセウスからの授け物と記した神話の内容。真実は定かではない。

The myth states that all the power (=type) of the plate is a gift from Arceus. The truth is not certain. https://monsterya.com/archives/2022_02_07_28611264/.html8)


d. 昔の人々は、ポケモンが持つタイプの起源がプレートにあると考えたのだろう。

People in the past would have thought that the types that Pokémon have originated in the plate. (https://shirotama.xyz/rfm/pokemon12.html)



e. アルセウスは宇宙そのものを作り出した神(ポケモンや人間よりも高次の存在)であり、ミュウがポケモン世界の舞台となる惑星に最初に産まれた始祖のポケモンという解釈が可能となっている。

ポケモンの力=タイプは、アルセウスが宇宙を生み出した際に結晶化したプレートから分け与えられたものとされている点も、この解釈を肯定している。

It is possible to interpret Arceus as the god who created the universe itself (a higher being than Pokémon and humans) and Mew as the first Pokémon born on the planet where the Pokémon world is set. This interpretation is also supported by the fact that Pokémon's power = type is said to be shared from the plate that crystallized when Arceus created the universe. (https://dic.pixiv.net/a/アルセウス)



f. 続く文章はアルセウスの特性「マルチタイプ」と、ポケモンのタイプについての言及になる。全てのポケモンは、必ずタイプを持っている。ポケモン達の火や水を使う力はプレートが与えたもの……アルセウスの特性を通じて、人はポケモンのタイプの起源がプレートにあると考えるようになったのだろう。

The following sentence will be a reference to Arceus' characteristic "multi-type" and the Pokémon's type. All Pokémon always have a type. The Pokémon's power to use fire and water was given to them by the plate. ...... Through Arceus' characteristic, people may have come to believe that the origin of Pokémon types is in the plate.

And so with that we can understand what the English version is trying to say, which is more explicit;
"The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon."

NB: Under the power bestowal page, bestowing powers to other doesn't mean you can grant it to yourself, but here, the plates already possess all said powers, it is rather simply sharing it's own powers.


And it gets more interesting because also finally got a translator to translate what the Japanese version had to say about the Legend Plate, to back up the official English version

Credits go to @ExecutorN0 for the translation


Legend Plate

“A slate that holds the power of all things/all creation. When used on a Pokemon, it gains the power of all Types/every Type's powers.”


Some important keywords:

First from "万物の力" (Power of All Things/All Creation/Everything)

万物 (banbutsu), means everything as all of creation, all that exists, the entire universe.


力 (Chikara). I know this one is the source of the discussion because some people say it means only "energy" or vaguely "power", but it can also include special abilities and similar things. It's one of those terms that can be used in various ways in fiction and can how it's used in tropes can give specific meanings you don't find in dictionaries. For example, in Digimon Tamers the process where Digimon absorb each other (Load) and gain their special abilities is referred to by Konaka as "能力を継承" (Inherit Ability) and is defined as "Can use their powers yourself" (その力を自分で使えるんだ). So yes, Chikara (Power, Strength) can also be used to refer to special abilities and similar things, it's a vague word and isn't always going to be used with that meaning, but it can be used if the context is there.


And finally


あらゆる タイプ の 力 (Power of Every Type/ Every Type's power)


あらゆる (arayuru) means "Every, all"


タイプ is literally Type as written in Katakana and finally 力 is the same one I mentioned before.


With "の" as the possessive particle, you could understand "The Power/s of Every Type" or "Every Type's Power".



Let’s piece this together

1. Each Plate Contains the Essense of a Type. Essence being the set of properties that makes something what it fundamentally is.

2. The Typing of Pokemon originates from the Plates, which, as mentioned above, holds the essence of the Type, and allows Pokemon to use supernatural powers

3. The Legend Plate has the power of everything, a broad statement encompassing the capabilities of everything in the universe. This allows its users to gain every type’s powers for logical reasons as listed in points 1 and 2.



ADDITIONAL SUPPORT

1. The Plates are fragments of Arceus. And it’s from using said powers of plates that he used to create the universe.

2. Arceus is an Almighty/Omnipotent God. Omnipotence meaning having unlimited power. At least in the context of the verse that is. In fact ‘Almighty’ was mentioned more than a 100 times in PLA. Almighty being having the power to do everything. Something that lends itself to the Legend Plate having all powers.

3. Arceus can infinitely create Pokemon at varying levels/moveset in the reverie to fight the player, using the same plates powers that holds the essence of each type



CONSEQUENCES OF THIS

The restriction to only moves doesn’t work once you factor in what I mentioned above. Now it goes like this:

a. ‘ Power of all things’ only means possessing the type and thats it' ie. Game mechanics depiction of Multitype, which is to change his type and the type of his “Judgement” move. If we go with game mechanics then you're right, untrue outside of it. Arceus has shown spamming various moves after accessing the various plates. Something that was also shown in the anime, nothing that happened here is something Arceus can canonically do in gameplay with his ability. Neither is this, yes canonically he cannot use light to bless Pokemon, with more power. God being restrained by game mechanics doesn’t make him limited outside of it, going by lore, showings, cutscenes and interviews surrounding him. There is a page made specifically for game mechanics.

b. 'Power of all things‘ only means all moves and nothing else’. Basically what you're saying is that power of all things only allows him to do some things, with you deciding that it only means moves and nothing else. This is purely headcannon against what the source material has said and I'm not even sure why it was allowed to get through at all. Arceus has used these same plates for many, many feats beyond just moves. Let's take a history lesson on some of the things Arceus has done. Erasing things out of existence and bringing things back into existence, creating a copy of himself for the player to use, Making Nobel Pokémon more powerful by blessing them, Arc Phone, Sending player back in time in PLA, time stop, halting history/Causality manipulation, dream Manipulation/subject reality, the space globe that has the ability to pass through space and time, Origin Ore containing Arceus power and used to make a Pokeball to capture Dialga/Palkia, the existence of the multiverse as a whole, the whole thing about eternal battle reverie, recreating Pokémon to fight the player at various levels , nullifying all attacks, using the attacks of the plate he assumes, the whole thing about omnipotent which gives him several abilities, Creating and sealing Giratina in the Distortion well as well as giving humans the power to seal Hoopa, causing unstoppable space-time distortion, nullifying time paradoxes in pmd, Creating The CT, everything about the red chain, is implied to have made the Destiny Tower which removes all items and money, and reduces one to their lowest levels and reverts all skills, moves, stats, and abilities upon entering, Everything that happened in JOL. The Flame Plate has its own respect thread. Everything here is something he canonically cannot do under game mechanics.

c. Finally, the million-dollar question. How is Arceus using many powers beyond just moves? And the answer is very simple. It’s written on the Legend Plate and supports his status as the omnipotent/almighty being of his verse. Also supported by the fact that all Pokémon literally downscale from the plates, which is the source of their powers.

“A Slate that holds the power of all things. When used on a Pokémon, it gains every Type’s powers”



POKEDEX

Firstly, what people may not know, is that the elements of the type are built into the Genetic structure of Pokemon:

1. For instance, traces of Dragon Cells in Magikarp's cells<https://pokemonthenovel.dreamwidth.org/380.html>, hinting at its evolutionary Draconic nature and usage of several Dragon Moves

2. Mew having the DNA of every Pokémon, allowing it to use all types of moves.

<Because it is able to use every move, there are many scientists who believe that it is the ancestor of all Pokémon.>

<Its DNA is said to contain the genetic codes of all Pokémon, so it can use all kinds of techniques.>

3. Vaporeon cells have a composition that is similar to water molecules, Jolteon cells emit electric charges that allow it to use electric moves, Leafeon has cells similar to plants and its because of Eevee's unstable genetic makeup that allows it to have diverse Typings

4.Beldum's cell composition is magnetic

5.Chinchou cells generate electricity as well

6.Ditto can change it’s molecular structure to transform into a perfect copy of an opponent, with their powers and all

7.Heleoptile cells generate electricity

8.Castform cells are exactly like those of water Molecules


And that's not all, Pokémon can be born from anything at all: negative emotions, particles in the air, rocks, poison, energy and so on. A Pokémon dies and can choose to return as a Ghost Type . Humans are responsible for many inorganic Pokémon as well. In fact a deep attachment to an inanimate object can bring them to life as Pokémon:

<But why would it turn up once you had forgotten it?

Dr. Watson had a hypothesis. It wasn't a case of you finding it, but the forgotten item wanting to be found.

You had loved it once and treated it well and it had come out wanting to meet you again.

Basically, inanimate objects, though lacking a soul, had the potential to develop something similar to one. >


Each plate corresponds to an aspect of the Pokémon reality, and these powers are built into Pokémon DNA. In other words, everything a Pokémon can do is all thanks to the power of plates, whether abilities/moves or others. Result? Psychic Pokémon using psychic powers are all originating from the mind plate, Ghost Types using Spiritual powers are all Originating from spooky plate, Dark Types using darkness related powers are all originating from dread plate, each plate holding the blueprint of the type. There’s no “new techniques learned outside the plates”, its rather limitations built into the genes of each Pokémon that is born. For instance, Mewtwo and Unown are both psychic Pokémon who use psychic powers, but Unown can warp reality on a huge scale, while mewtwo can’t really do that, and can never learn to do that. Pikachu cannot produce infinite electricity but Zapdos can, and Pika cannot learn to because its genetic structure does not support that. Pokemon are limited by how much power, as well as the nature of power they are given from the source, being the plates.
Pokemon manipulate psychic energy to use their powers, lets use pokedex entries of some psychic Pokemon, who use psychic energy for stuff.
Armarogue
Armarouge’s set of armor belonged to a distinguished warrior, and is the source of the energy used for its Psychic-type moves. It also uses the psychic capabilities of this armor to control the fire energy within its body and unleash attacks.
Gardevoir
Gardevoir has the ability to read the future. If it senses impending danger to its Trainer, this Pokémon is said to unleash its psychokinetic energy at full power.
And yes, that psychic energy can be traced back to the mind plate which has the essence of Psychic energy.

To conclude, everything a Pokémon does is attributed to their molecular structures, being composed of at least 1 of the 18 elements, and as such, there’s no power/ability/move they're using that is independent of it. All these 18 elements is traced back to the fragments of Arceus, which holds the essence of these powers and as shown in several media, he’s used these powers to achieve many feats outside just moves.

By examining the chemical properties of unearthed fossils, we can determine the era they lived in.
However this method does not work with Pokémon.
This isn't common knowledge, but it's impossible to detect the chemical make up of a Pokémon's body.
As such, when a Pokémon fossil is discovered on occasion, we are unable to determine the time period it lived in, unlike other fossils.
This isn't the only difference between Pokémon and other creatures. The molecular geometry of a Pokémon's body is also different to that of other creatures.
Basically, Pokémon are highly mysterious creatures.
In regards to the origins of Pokémon, researchers can only say one thing for certain.


NON POKEMON

"But Arceus didn't create Dark Matter”. Ah, yes, Arceus also didn’t create most Pokémon either. In fact, Arceus directly created only 6 Pokémon. Still doesn’t change the fact that the source/origin of their powers is from the plates. Arceus did not directly create Porygon but it uses Psychic powers, and the Essence of Psychic Energy is in The Mind Plate

The Universe Created Dark Matter. And even as the Pokémon said, everything is born in the universe. And what is the Origin of It all?

In the same game Dark Matter appeared, it's mentioned at the very beginning that everything Originates from A source, whether stars, skies or Pokémon, everything is connected. And who is that Source? Well, at the Top of Destiny Tower, the same game Dark Matter appeared, is a Statue of Arceus, and on it its mentioned that he created everything

"Humans are clearly exempt because they’re not Pokémon". There’s this misconception that Arceus didn’t directly create something so he doesn’t have their powers. This is completely false. Arceus has the essence of the powers that everyone users, literally the blueprint of every power in the universe. He already has your powers before, now and forever, is it psychic powers, spiritual or even magical? He has them, that’s just Mind, Spooky and Pixie Plate. Sabrina, arguably the best human Psychic in the series, directly says that all humans have Psychic powers, they just don't realize it. Armarouge's psychic powers come from the Armor of a warrior, manipulating the psychic energy and fire energy for moves, both of which Arceus has the essence of as well. Arceus directly gave humans psychic powers powerful enough to seal Hoopa. Yes, they’re not Pokémon. In the episode hocus pocus, a girl can cast magic spells with spell books. Humans can read and control the same aura power as Lucario in Lucario and the mystery of mew, Olympia can see the future. The plates are the foundation of everything. It just so happens that Pokémon are the widely known users of these supernatural powers. Case in point, the plates are not restricted to just Pokémon. Psychic powers, magical, spiritual, elemental based powers, the plates have the essence of it all, and anyone and everyone could use it, granted they have the means to do

Which is why the plates never limits itself to Pokémon. Let’s take the Mind Plate, and every plate follows this formula:

“A stone tablet imbued with the essence of psychic energy. When used on a certain Pokémon, it allows that Pokémon to gain the power of the Psychic Type.”

It never says he gains the power of Psychic Type Pokémon, which would have limited him to just Pokémon, but rather it’s the power of the psychic type, encompassing any power with psychic properties. And this is for logical reasons as its not just Pokémon who use these supernatural powers, but humans, robots, data beings, amongst other things. Arceus wouldn’t be able to give humans the ability to use supernatural powers if the Plates were only restricted to Pokemon.

I made a sandbox encompassing the powers that i came across in the series. This would be linked to his page. You can go through it

UNOWN​

Immersion and Limited Abstract Existence (Type 1. To escape Team Rocket's attack, Unown merged with Larvitars mind, sent Ash and friends into it and created a mindscape out of it.)

Justification Subjective Reality (With Unown's power, one can make anything and can be anything. They're capable of making new realities, altering the world using thoughts and dreams of others. Amongst them being able to recreate landscapes from picture books, making breathable water, and generally manifest the dreams of Hale. Made it night time for an entire week in a town)

Duplication and Power Mimicry ( Could create Pokémon with the same exact power, stats and skills although they're not as smart as the original. They could recreate the exact same Pokemon except stronger than the original)




Arceus


Elemental Intangibility (Appeared to the player as light throughout the opening sequence of PLA)


Dream Manipulation And Subjective Reality
(Eternal Battle Reverie is accessed by going to sleep and meeting Arceus in a dream, with Pokemon being able to gain exp, evolve and players wake up with items they won in the dream. Every Dream in Pokemon another reality, and characters can physically enter the dreams of others if they have the means to do so. Also seen when Drowzee sent two Pokemon into Azurill's dream. The Dream world, where dreams manifest is its own plane of reality and is separated from the main reality by Interdream Zone. Evidence to this was when Palkia's spatial distortion caused Pokemon dreams to manifest in reality )


Creation (Can create Pokémon to fight the Trainers. This includes powerful Pokémon like Origin Form Dialga /Palkia, and even Unown )

Durability Negation (One of the wishes the player can choose is to sacrifice HP of Pokemon)

Healing (Can heal HP and PP to max under player request in Eternal Battle Reverie)

Resistance Negation (Can inflict status condition on Pokemon regardless of whether its Type makes them Immune to them in Eternal Battle Reverie.)

Existence Erasure (Volo was planning to subjugate Arceus power in order to erase the universe and only failed when the player defeated him. Upscaled from the Creation Trio who are parts of him and could erase the concept of spirit)

Technology Manipulation (Created the Arc Phone for the player, which can mark locations the player has to visit, materialize caves out of nowhere, amongst others)

Power Bestowal ( Nobel Pokemon are blessed by Arceus, and are under his protection, hence they cannot be caught, and they're larger and stronger than their species )

Acausality(Type 1. Unaffected by changes in history unless he allows them)

Stamina Justification: Limitless (Arceus tells the player that they can fight for as long as they wish it. This is also supported by the name of the challenge, being the Eternal Battle Reverie)



ORIGINAL SPIRIT

Omnipresence
(It exists in everything and nowhere at once, and observes all creation from all creation)

Intelligence ( Omniscient. It sees everything due to his nature of omnipresence. The concept of knowledge, Uxie, one of the 3 that make Spirit, is an extension of his Avatar)

Abstract Existence (Type 1. It exists purely as a Heart; 心, Primordial Consciousness that is both immanent within the multiverse as well as beyond its boundaries. Arceus is a manifestation of it)

NB: The word for Heart "kokoro", is used mostly to refer to the metaphysical existence that represents a human being, that is, what you would call a soul, or a mind. In the context of Pokemon, Heart is used Interchangeably with Mind or Spirit and it means the same thing, Awareness/Perception

Agree: (11) @Thelastmlg, @theultimate5105, @Arceus0x , @y3p_owo, @Nanashi, @GyroNutz, @LephyrTheRevanchist, @Elizhaa, @FinePoint, @Zencha9 , @Executor_N0

Disagree: (2) @Iamunanimousinthat (Agrees with Unown stuff, Agrees with the rests besides all verse powers, resistance to causality hax and infinite Stamina), @InfiniteDay (Agrees with everything else)

Neutral: @Everything12
 
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FOUNDATION OF THE UNIVERSE AND ESSENCE / CONCEPT OF TYPES
Just put me as Neutral for all this.

Arceus


Elemental Intangibility (Appeared to the player as light throughout the opening sequence of PLA)
Personally, I believe this wasn't avatar Arceus, but the form the Original Spirit Arceus takes to appear to others. So Neutral on this.

Pretty sure Type Immunity isn't what the Wiki considers Immunity and is just a form of Resistance. So Resistance Negation.

Yes, I know some Pokémon profiles have Immunity for Abilities and Type stuff, but the Pokémon profiles on general have poor quality on average so that doesn't mean much.

Immunity is a big NLF and requires something on the level of lacking a soul which obviously means Soul Manipulation can not possibly function on you.

Existence Erasure (Volo was planning to subjugate Arceus power in order to erase the universe.)
Probably get better evidence for Existence Erasure from upscaling from the Creation Trio remaking the world of something. Personally fine with scaling Arceus to the Creation Trio regardless of the plate stuff because how much more connected Arceus is to them then it is everything else.

Power Bestowal ( Nobel Pokemon are blessed by Arceus, and are under his protection, hence they cannot be caught, and they're larger and stronger than their species )
Also bestowed it's power to that guy from the Hoopa movie and giving the Lake Trio their ability to calm Palkia and Dialga (Should give Arceus Mind Manipulation and all that for it as well.)

That's Acausality.

Everything else seems fine by me.

Edit: Also, I don't think that avatar Arceus and Original Spirit Arceus have different minds and the avatar is just the physical form that Arceus uses to interact with the world more closely. (At least based off all the stuff I've seen from the main Canon, the movie makes this stuff questionable but we all know how that movie treats Arceus)
 
Pretty sure Type Immunity isn't what the Wiki considers Immunity and is just a form of Resistance. So Resistance Negation.

Yes, I know some Pokémon profiles have Immunity for Abilities and Type stuff, but the Pokémon profiles on general have poor quality on average so that doesn't mean much.

Immunity is a big NLF and requires something on the level of lacking a soul which obviously means Soul Manipulation can not possibly function on you.
fair nuff
Probably get better evidence for Existence Erasure from upscaling from the Creation Trio remaking the world of something. Personally fine with scaling Arceus to the Creation Trio regardless of the plate stuff because how much more connected Arceus is to them then it is everything else.
tbh yeah they are literally him. he should get their conceptual EE.
 
First I will start off with everything else other then the major part

UNOWN​

Immersion and Limited Abstract Existence (Type 1. To escape Team Rocket's attack, Unown merged with Larvitars mind, sent Ash and friends into it and created a mindscape out of it.)
Justification Subjective Reality (With Unown's power, one can make anything and can be anything. They're capable of making new realities, altering the world using thoughts and dreams of others. Amongst them being able to recreate landscapes from picture books, making breathable water, and generally manifest the dreams of Hale. Made it night time for an entire week in a town)

Duplication and Power Mimicry ( Could create Pokémon with the same exact power, stats and skills although they're not as smart as the original. They could recreate the exact same Pokemon except stronger than the original)
Agree with all of this
Arceus

Elemental Intangibility (Appeared to the player as light throughout the opening sequence of PLA)

Dream Manipulation And Subjective Reality
(Eternal Battle Reverie is accessed by going to sleep and meeting Arceus in a dream, with Pokemon being able to gain exp, evolve and players wake up with items they won in the dream. Every Dream in Pokemon another reality, and characters can physically enter the dreams of others if they have the means to do so. Also seen when Drowzee sent two Pokemon into Azurill's dream. The Dream world, where dreams manifest is its own plane of reality and is separated from the main reality by Interdream Zone. Evidence to this was when Palkia's spatial distortion caused Pokemon dreams to manifest in reality )

Power mimicry And Duplication (Can create Pokémon to fight the Trainers. This includes powerful Pokémon like Origin Form Dialga /Palkia, and even Unown )

Durability Negation (One of the wishes the player can choose is to sacrifice HP of Pokemon)

Healing (Can heal HP and PP to max under player request in Eternal Battle Reverie)
Agree with all of this
Types aren't really immune to status effects, see Body Slam Paralyising electric types. If this works on Poison types though with poison (or other ones which are immune to status effects from this type) then I agree with resistence negation
Existence Erasure (Volo was planning to subjugate Arceus power in order to erase the universe.)

Technology Manipulation (Created the Arc Phone for the player, which can mark locations the player has to visit, materialize caves out of nowhere, amongst others)

Power Bestowal ( Nobel Pokemon are blessed by Arceus, and are under his protection, hence they cannot be caught, and they're larger and stronger than their species )
Agree with everything here, EE for different reasons then provided
Resistance to Causality Manipulation (Ash going back in time to change history didn't change anything until Arceus accepted it)

Stamina Justification: Limitless (Arceus tells the player that they can fight for as long as they wish it. This is also supported by the name of the challenge, being the Eternal Battle Reverie)
Agree with this here, Stamina also gets upscaled from the Creation Trio keeping the Universe around forever
ORIGINAL SPIRIT

Omnipresence
(It exists in everything and nowhere at once, and observes all creation from all creation)

Intelligence ( Omniscient. It sees everything due to his nature of omnipresence. The concept of knowledge, Uxie, one of the 3 that make Spirit, is an extension of his Avatar)

Abstract Existence (Type 1. It exists purely as a Heart; 心, Primordial Consciousness that is both immanent within the multiverse as well as beyond its boundaries. Arceus is a manifestation of it)

NB: The word for Heart "kokoro", is used mostly to refer to the metaphysical existence that represents a human being, that is, what you would call a soul, or a mind. In the context of Pokemon, Heart (Or Mind in Legends Arceus) is that of Awareness.
Obviously I agree with everything here




So reading the first part in Depth I agree with it
 
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Just put me as Neutral for all this.
Alright
Personally, I believe this wasn't avatar Arceus, but the form the Original Spirit Arceus takes to appear to others. So Neutral on this.
Maybe. But if Original Spirit can take any form at all, then why would it need arceus to create and maintain the universe. The only form that it can take to appear to others is that of the Pokémon Arceus, which we can even see by the shape of the light. He wouldn't need that if he can just show parts of himself to others. For lack of better evidence, I say we go with it being Arceus, he's the one who was interacting with the player through the phone that light arceus gave to player
Pretty sure Type Immunity isn't what the Wiki considers Immunity and is just a form of Resistance. So Resistance Negation.

Yes, I know some Pokémon profiles have Immunity for Abilities and Type stuff, but the Pokémon profiles on general have poor quality on average so that doesn't mean much.

Immunity is a big NLF and requires something on the level of lacking a soul which obviously means Soul Manipulation can not possibly function on you.
I'll change that
Probably get better evidence for Existence Erasure from upscaling from the Creation Trio remaking the world of something. Personally fine with scaling Arceus to the Creation Trio regardless of the plate stuff because how much more connected Arceus is to them then it is everything else.
I'll fix that
Also bestowed it's power to that guy from the Hoopa movie and giving the Lake Trio their ability to calm Palkia and Dialga (Should give Arceus Mind Manipulation and all that for it as well.)


That's Acausality.
Yes. Type 1? Is it really Acausality when history begins to fix itself after accepting them. The cause ie. Ash going back to change things, only begins to take effect once arceus accepts them. Doesn't fit any sort of Acausality for the second part. What do you think
Everything else seems fine by me.

Edit: Also, I don't think that avatar Arceus and Original Spirit Arceus have different minds and the avatar is just the physical form that Arceus uses to interact with the world more closely. (At least based off all the stuff I've seen from the main Canon, the movie makes this stuff questionable but we all know how that movie treats Arceus)
Well yes, to me there's nothing like 'Original Spirit Arceus'. Its Original Spirit, separate from his manifestation(Arceus, any appearance of it)
 
First I will start off with everything else other then the major part


Agree with all of this

Agree with all of this

Types aren't really immune to status effects, see Body Slam Paralyising electric types. If this works on Poison types though with poison (or other ones which are immune to status effects from this type) then I agree with resistence negation

Agree with everything here, EE for different reasons then provided

Agree with this here, Stamina also gets upscaled from the Creation Trio keeping the Universe around forever

Obviously I agree with everything here




So reading the first part in Depth I agree with it
Thanks for participating. I'll make the suggested changes
 
Maybe. But if Original Spirit can take any form at all, then why would it need arceus to create and maintain the universe. The only form that it can take to appear to others is that of the Pokémon Arceus, which we can even see by the shape of the light. He wouldn't need that if he can just show parts of himself to others. For lack of better evidence, I say we go with it being Arceus, he's the one who was interacting with the player through the phone that light arceus gave to player
A bunch of glowing lights in the shape of it's avatar might not be the right type of 'form' it wants for it's interaction. Might want something a bit more solid and physical.

As for why did it need a physical form, I'm guessing it 'needed' to as much as it 'needed' the player to take care of the Creation Trio during Legends: Arceus. It's just one of the many options it could take with it's almighty power and it choose that specific way because it matches it's vision of how it wishes to interact with the world.

Personally reading through the blog speaking about the Sinnoh legends, I don't think their is anything that supports your interpretation more then mine. The only thing that does is that the side materials; such as the movie, have a habit of portraying Arceus as very fallible and so goes against the almightyness of the Original Spirit. But that I just treat as secondary canon funkyness and not really important, like a certain meteor.

Yes. Type 1? Is it really Acausality when history begins to fix itself after accepting them. The cause ie. Ash going back to change things, only begins to take effect once arceus accepts them. Doesn't fit any sort of Acausality for the second part. What do you think
Certainly isn't Resistance to Causality Manipulation if nothing else.

Well yes, to me there's nothing like 'Original Spirit Arceus'. Its Original Spirit, separate from his manifestation(Arceus, any appearance of it)
I fully believe that the Original Spirit is the Arceus that speaks to the player in the beginning of the game and throughout it, and that the avatar Arceus has no will of it's own and is just a physical puppet made to interact with the world.
 
A bunch of glowing lights in the shape of it's avatar might not be the right type of 'form' it wants for it's interaction. Might want something a bit more solid and physical.

As for why did it need a physical form, I'm guessing it 'needed' to as much as it 'needed' the player to take care of the Creation Trio during Legends: Arceus. It's just one of the many options it could take with it's almighty power and it choose that specific way because it matches it's vision of how it wishes to interact with the world.

Personally reading through the blog speaking about the Sinnoh legends, I don't think their is anything that supports your interpretation more then mine. The only thing that does is that the side materials; such as the movie, have a habit of portraying Arceus as very fallible and so goes against the almightyness of the Original Spirit. But that I just treat as secondary canon funkyness and not really important, like a certain meteor.


i think this may support Yemma's claim
 


i think this may support Yemma's claim

Not really, theirs nothing saying that is avatar Arceus or Original Spirit Arceus. I think this is just a case of the Wiki having an idea; that avatar Arceus is a seperate mind to the Original Spirit, and said idea has been around so long that it becomes too hard to part with it and look back and realise the evidence for said idea wasn't as solid as they thought.
 
Not really, theirs nothing saying that is avatar Arceus or Original Spirit Arceus. I think this is just a case of the Wiki having an idea; that avatar Arceus is a seperate mind to the Original Spirit, and said idea has been around so long that it becomes too hard to part with it and look back and realise the evidence for said idea wasn't as solid as they thought.
i mean i never thought of that. Arceus' llama body is just an avatar and the true arceus is the original spirit.
 
A bunch of glowing lights in the shape of it's avatar might not be the right type of 'form' it wants for it's interaction. Might want something a bit more solid and physical.

As for why did it need a physical form, I'm guessing it 'needed' to as much as it 'needed' the player to take care of the Creation Trio during Legends: Arceus. It's just one of the many options it could take with it's almighty power and it choose that specific way because it matches it's vision of how it wishes to interact with the world.

Personally reading through the blog speaking about the Sinnoh legends, I don't think their is anything that supports your interpretation more then mine. The only thing that does is that the side materials; such as the movie, have a habit of portraying Arceus as very fallible and so goes against the almightyness of the Original Spirit. But that I just treat as secondary canon funkyness and not really important, like a certain meteor.
I don't understand you. If OS made his Avatar appear as light to the player, isn't that a feat for the Avatar? As you said, the Avatar is a puppet afterall
Certainly isn't Resistance to Causality Manipulation if nothing else.
Then what is it ? Because the changes overwrote the present. This is causality related if nothing else. And it can't be type 1 if the changes did happen under his approval
I fully believe that the Original Spirit is the Arceus that speaks to the player in the beginning of the game and throughout it, and that the avatar Arceus has no will of it's own and is just a physical puppet made to interact with the world.
The entire idea about making an avatar is if you're
1. Abstract
2. Higher Dimensional
3. Too large for the cosmology
4. Something restricting you from entering an area

OS falls under 1, it literally used an avatar to create the entire universe and being able to appear in any way shape or form will defeat that purpose. I fully believe we'll never see the Original Spirit, being everywhere and nowhere, being Consciousness that pervades everything and beyond, the thing is literally larger than the cosmology. That appearance of Llama is the physical form, that is called Arceus, as mentioned in the opening.
 
Not really, theirs nothing saying that is avatar Arceus or Original Spirit Arceus. I think this is just a case of the Wiki having an idea; that avatar Arceus is a seperate mind to the Original Spirit, and said idea has been around so long that it becomes too hard to part with it and look back and realise the evidence for said idea wasn't as solid as they thought.
Yes they're the same mind. One exists purely as Consciousness and has no forrm, and the other is the Pokémon who created and manages the world. Anything that can be perceived by others is Arceus. So the feat is his, no?
 
I disagree with Arceus getting all Pokemon powers.

True Form arceus should get the intangibility, and everything else is fine.
 
I disagree with Arceus getting all Pokemon powers.
Explain why you disagree. And why Arceus must have only all moves and nothing else with the same elemental types that make up their genes that Arceus Plates hold the essence of
True Form arceus should get the intangibility, and everything else is fine.
Why intangibility ?

You're not elaborating on your points
 
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Already has Abstract Existence, it's Incorporeality it should gain.
Well, AE on his page is pretty sus. It says he's the Embodiement of the Pokémon reality. Which is false.

That's basically what I want to change
 
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Disagree with Arceus getting all the abilities of pokemon and non-pokemon.

Agree with the abilities of Unown.

Agree with the abilities for the Original Spirt.

For the abilities of Arceus:

Elemental Intangibility: Agree

Dream Manipulation And Subjective Reality: Agree

Power mimicry And Duplication:
Disagree. Arceus is just creating the pokemon. He himself isn't duplicating and copying their abiltieis and using it to fight the player character nor is he transforming himself into them.

Durability Negation: Disagree. That's not Durability Negation.

Healing: Agree

Resistance Negation: Agree

Existence Erasure: Agree

Technology Manipulation: Agree

Power Bestowal: Agree


Resistance to Causality Manipulation: Disagree. This is Acausality type 1.

Stamina Justification: Disagree. Not enough evidence. Arceus referring to the battles, not to fighting him directly indefinitely.
 
alright, now the elaboration on why you disagree on all abilities.

we treat dragon rage as dura neg for dealing set damage, removing hp directly should be the same

eeeh, yeah i agree with the justif not being great, on one hand, to command his pokemon to fight forever you'd need stamina, on another hand, yeah he ain't fighting you directly, plus there is the fact that the trainer ain't living forever to begin with
 
Disagree with Arceus getting all the abilities of pokemon and non-pokemon.
You do realise your move only headcannon is debunked by every single showing of Arceus using the plates outside game mechanics ?

Nvm, explain why you disagree


Power mimicry And Duplication: Disagree. Arceus is just creating the pokemon. He himself isn't duplicating and copying their abiltieis and using it to fight the player character nor is he transforming himself into them.
It's literally the same thing anyway
Durability Negation: Disagree. That's not Durability Negation.
He can faint the player if HP is reduced to 0. So it's considered Durability Negation.

You're free to let me know what it is then
Resistance to Causality Manipulation: Disagree. This is Acausality type 1.
Acausality type 1 doesn't make changes overwrite the present when you accept them.
Stamina Justification: Disagree. Not enough evidence. Arceus referring to the battles, not to fighting him directly indefinitely.
Eternal battle Reverie. It's even in the name and backs up his statement about it going on for as long as the player wants. It's a dream of sorts, a reverie(kinda like a daydream)

Well here's the thing, Arceus is the one managing that fight throughout, plus he actually fights you. Depends on what the player chooses
 
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Agree
eeeh, yeah i agree with the justif not being great, on one hand, to command his pokemon to fight forever you'd need stamina, on another hand, yeah he ain't fighting you directly, plus there is the fact that the trainer ain't living forever to begin with
The player also fell from the sky unharmed. It's all Arceus doing. Afterall, EBR has you going to his personal dimension through dreams
 
alright, now the elaboration on why you disagree on all abilities.
The reasoning given is contrived and round about and requires several assumptions. Arceus having access to the essence or energy of types via the plates, doesn't mean he can do what other individual Pokémon can do with the same essence or energy types without direct statements or showings.

we treat dragon rage as dura neg for dealing set damage, removing hp directly should be the same

I changed my mind. I agree with the durability negation. Arceus reduces the HP by a percentage. That's battle applicable. OP needs to explain it better such as, "Arceus can reduce a pokemon's HP by half".
 
The reasoning given is contrived and round about and requires several assumptions. Arceus having access to the essence or energy of types via the plates, doesn't mean he can do what other individual Pokémon can do with the same essence or energy types without direct statements or showings.
Well, we're not making any assumptions. We're only going off what the source material gave us

1. Arceus is the source of the powers the Pokémon use
2. With every Pokémon being composed of at least one of the elements.
3. The Legend plate supports point 1 by saying it allows Arceus to use every types powers, for logical reasons as its the Origin. And is definetely not only moves going off all Plate showings outside game mechanics
 
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Neither does resistance to causality manipulation.
So Causality manipulation then? It's Causality related no matter how you slice it. And definitely not Acausality type 1
no it's not.
Explain
He's not physically fighting you endlessly without stopping.
Arceus is mostly a trainer just like the player.

Both can command their Pokémon to fight endlessly

Don't forget that the player Pokémon can fight endlessly as well in the Reverie

The entire thing is Arceus doing, and if he says it can go on forever, then that's that. You need infinite stamina for that. Being a trainer and the Pokémon themselves doing the fighting. They just can't get tired in the Reverie.
 
So Causality manipulation then? It's Causality related no matter how you slice it. And definitely not Acausality type 1
A very limited version. "allowed changes to the timeline to be done".

These are two different scenarios:

A. Arceus Summons/Creates Machamp to use Focus Punch.
B. Arceus copies Machamps's ability to use Focus Punch.

The entire thing is Arceus doing, and if he says it can go on forever, then that's that. You need infinite stamina for that. Being a trainer and the Pokémon themselves doing the fighting. They just can't get tired in the Reverie.
Limitless Stamina is for characters who can fight indefinitely. By your example, anyone with Self-sustenance type 3 and Immortality Type 1 would have Limitless Stamina.
 
A very limited version. "allowed changes to the timeline to be done".
Limited because?
These are two different scenarios:

A. Arceus Summons/Creates Machamp to use Focus Punch.
B. Arceus copies Machamps's ability to use Focus Punch.
You're right about this. I'll change it to Creation

Limitless Stamina is for characters who can fight indefinitely. By your example, anyone with Self-sustenance type 3 and Immortality Type 1 would have Limitless Stamina.
You didn't read the scans did you? .
"This challenge shall continue for as long as thou wouldst wish it"

It's called the Eternal Battle Reverie for a reason. Yes, you can bring those, he still qualifies for Infinite stamina tho.

"By your example " doesn't explain why it isn't infinite stamina

Characters with inexhaustible sources of energy at their disposal, allowing them to fight indefinitely, although not necessarily allowing them to ignore crippling pain or fight on through critical injuries.
 
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Well, we're not making any assumptions. We're only going off what the source material gave us

1. Arceus is the source of the powers the Pokémon use
2. With every Pokémon being composed of at least one of the elements.
3. The Legend plate supports point 1 by saying it allows Arceus to use every types powers, for logical reasons as its the Origin. And is definetely not only moves going off all Plate showings outside game mechanics
@Iamunanimousinthat You missed this. Explain why it requires assumptions.
 
It is.

If causality literally has to wait for you to accept the changes before it changes, it is Resistances to causality hax.
 
Btw I'm counting votes based on agreements /disagreement with main CRT(Getting Arceus all verse powers).

But please, elaborate on why you disagree.
 
Btw I'm counting votes based on agreements /disagreement with main CRT(Getting Arceus all verse powers).

But please, elaborate on why you disagree.
I do agree with everything but the Arceus getting all powers stuff, so I should be in "Agree" not "Disagree".
 
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