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Pokemon God Revision- Yes its Arceus (And minor stuff for Unown)

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Well, I do not remember anymore, so it would be good if you and @Moritzva both write an explanation post each, after which I can call for the other staff members who have evaluated these threads.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, I do not remember anymore, so it would be good if you and @Moritzva both write an explanation post each, after which I can call for the other staff members who have evaluated these threads.
Click to expand...
I'll put @Executor_N0 explanation here:

"So, the way I see it the relationship between Arceus, the plates and Pokémon, in general, can be very vague.

First of all, I agree that Arceus as the original Heart that is all-encompassing should have all abilities as that version of Arceus is collectively all of existence combined and every single being is just a manifestation of a possibility that it already encompassed. So when talking about myths and similar things, I think that Arceus could include every possibility in the Pokémon world because Arceus is everything.

In regards to the avatars and plates in general, it's strange because the lore is strange. A lot of times when they are discussed it's talked about as if there was a single set of Plates. Of course, in the 12th Arceus recovering the plates was a big thing, the same with the HG/SS manga and in a way even Legends Arceus... and yet the plates still exist somewhere else and multiple of them are confirmed to exist at the same time.

For the anime, while the Draco and Splash Plates were being used in the Jewel of Life, it was also being used by Team Galatic in order to get the Spear Key. While the Jewel of Life was still a thing and Arceus was mad at humans, Arceus still should have helped the people at the Arche Valley not only sharing part of its power but directly leading the power of the Plates, including the Splash Plate, to seal Hoopa. And this isn't even counting that now Arceus showed the Fairy Plate and for some reason, Team Galatic was in control over the Flame Plate in the recent Arceus' special.

And this isn't even considering the games that showed multiple plates existing at the same time and even being acknowledged, with the ones in the Abyssal Ruins
being directly mentioned not only in gameplay but also in the Pokémon Mystery Files on the "I Love Pokémon Club".

The truth is that the physical manifestations of Arceus and the Plates are full of vagueness and sometimes clear plotholes that not only contradict the settings but even the story itself. Because for some reason Arceus was mad at the Jewel of Life and couldn't use their powers... yet Arceus still was using it to seal Hoopa and Team Galatic used the same plates in the Jewel of Life. Even not considering the anime, the games themselves also make a lot of use of "there are multiple plates", even with that being illogical with all the lore and whole propose for the Legend Arceus post-game.

In the end, I feel that anything in regards to the physical manifestation of Arceus is only there as a plot excuse from the eyes of Arceus itself, as in the Arceus' special they showed how easily Arceus could get the Flame Plate, and yet Arceus allowed the humans to work on that because Arceus "doesn't act and only wants the better for humanity and Pokémon", the same feeling given in the manga.

So, I can definitely see Arceus as a whole being able to use every power and the Plates having something to do with the creation of the universe and the powers every Pokémon has, although the physical manifestation and the plates sometimes have contradictory depictions even inside the same media, so if necessary I wouldn't be totally against a note acknowledging the contradictions even if we address that the contradictions and limitations seems to now be explained as "Arceus just wanted to test mankind and the Pokémon"
 
Unavailable since Monday. But judging by last discussion, she believes this is a rehash and she more or less won't buy any other discussion so I dunno

We can wait for her I guess, it's up to you
 
It seems best to wait for a summary from her as well.
 
Antvasima said:
Thank you.
Click to expand...

Btw @Antvasima how long is too long before we close the thread and call it a day? Unless it was some miracle, then in that case I thank the stars, there's no amount of threads you'd make that will make 5 staff agree with you, if the evidence does not suffice. And this isn't even particularly a repeat( proving she didn't even read the thread), just providing evidence that all powers are intertwined and one should not be excluded from another.

Especially when there was a thread very recently addressing the exact same thing

This is just in case I'm gone and Moritzva never returns. She seems more interested in getting me banned than actually addressing anything here

I particularly dont mind any sort of ban, but I don't fancy the idea of coming back to wiki to meet an incomplete thread because someone refused to comment 2 + months.

The only staff that agrees with Moritzva is herself and at this point, I'm not sure why we should be keeping this open at all if she chooses not to help to move this forward (it's already concluded)
 
It's approaching Christmas for me and I've been spending lots of time with family; this is why these types of threads are problematic. By repeatedly reposting the same thread and never actually explaining why it is different, Sniper is simply rerolling the previous thread until the opposition isn't around anymore.
 
Moritzva said:
It's approaching Christmas for me and I've been spending lots of time with family; this is why these types of threads are problematic. By repeatedly reposting the same thread and never actually explaining why it is different, Sniper is simply rerolling the previous thread until the opposition isn't around anymore.
Click to expand...
Sniper recently wrote another post explaining what he changed better, in case you missed it while typing it. If it still doesn't change anything, that's fine.
 
He also admitted that it was "sort of" a repeat of the past thread, and I am being asked to reiterate my points from the last thread. If I am being asked to reiterate the arguments from the past thread (which went on for an unholy amount of time, and I'd need to spend quite a lot of effort going through it again), then it is definitely a repeat.
 
Moritzva said:
He also admitted that it was "sort of" a repeat of the past thread,
Click to expand...
Now don't go around removing context

Yes, I'll admit it's more or less a repeat of last thread... Sort of. The main argument, which people missed was basically that I was connecting moves and abilities and showing why they're intertwined and should not be excluded from moves. That was the purpose of this thread.
Click to expand...

Moritzva said:
and I am being asked to reiterate my points from the last thread. If I am being asked to reiterate the arguments from the past thread (which went on for an unholy amount of time, and I'd need to spend quite a lot of effort going through it again), then it is definitely a repeat.
Click to expand...
I'm not concerned.

Feel free to explain to staff as to why you believe what you believe.

Just do that please. I need to get this done and move on to other things and this thread has gone on for far too long
 
I believe this is a repeat of the previous thread, yes, in large part because I'm being asked to use past arguments in this thread. I don't particularly feel like wasting my time doing something that's already been done a few dozen times.
 
Well, it would greatly simplify for other staff members in their evaluations if each side present their arguments in easily overviewed manners.
 
I've presented mine. Please, she's not going to change her mind and it's clear I'd be wasting my time. She's also not particularly convincing any staff.. The very first sentence in the thread was about the last thread, everyone knows about that. I mean the staff

As I keep saying, there's no way I can use multiversal feats to get outerversal even if I make the thread 10 times.

I believe this thread should be closed.
 
So what are the staff conclusions, and what still needs to be applied, here then?
 
The changes were applied about a month ago. 5 staff agreed to it, only Moritzva disagrees.
 
Repeating a thread over and over until you get a conclusion you want is a horrible idea. This is a ridiculous precedent to allow, and all changes should be reverted on these grounds.

I was literally not even made aware of this thread until after it already passed. It only passed because the people who voted on the previous thread aren't all entirely around. This is the problem with repeat threads.
 
Moritzva said:
Repeating a thread over and over until you get a conclusion you want is a horrible idea. This is a ridiculous precedent to allow, and all changes should be reverted on these grounds.
Click to expand...
Nah ah. We'll not reverse changes 5 staff agreed to just to satisfy 1 staff.

As I mentioned you'll never get outerversal level accepted by multiple staff if your scans show Multiverse level feats, whether you made the thread 20 times will not change any minds
 
None of that counters my points in the slightest.

I disagree with these underhanded tactics and I refuse to engage with them. Simple as that.
 
Moritzva said:
None of that counters my points in the slightest.

I disagree with these underhanded tactics and I refuse to engage with them. Simple as that.
Click to expand...
I explained, you ignored, you kept repeating the same thing. A thread that should've been concluded a month ago is still alive.
As I mentioned you'll never get outerversal level accepted by multiple staff if your scans show Multiverse level feats, whether you made the thread 20 times will not change the fact that it just don't qualify
Click to expand...
Underhanded?

When the first sentence in the thread was about the last thread

When we called many staff. I especially liked the fact that there was a recent staff thread about this topic, giving staff great ideas about how to approach these things.
 
Well, can somebody remind me which staff members rejected the previous thread and which ones accepted this one please? If several reliable staff members think that this one is reliable it seems inappropriate to just suddenly overrule them.
 
Wait a minute. If DontTalk, who is our most intelligent and levelheaded staff member, thinks that this revision is acceptable to apply, that seems very reliable.

However, didn't somebody say that five staff members accepted this thread rather than five?
 
Oh, my apologies then. And which staff members are that exactly?
 
ShivaShakti said:
I personally believe this thread should be closed and rejected, if it is merely a repetition of previously rejected points.
Click to expand...
In fact, Iamunanimousinthat lost the last thread.

The existence of this thread is to link all powers as usable by Arceus.

The last thread, under Iamunanimousinthat authority, limited it to moves only, which is questionable imo, especially when the lore never made such claims. Which is why this thread exists
 
Antvasima said:
Wait a minute. If DontTalk, who is our most intelligent and levelheaded staff member, thinks that this revision is acceptable to apply, that seems very reliable.

However, didn't somebody say that five staff members accepted this thread rather than five?
Click to expand...
The previous thread was made by Iam, and was concerning this same topic, except with Iam as the OP and Sniper presenting these same points against it.

It is also worth noting that a lot of people ended up disagreeing with Iam (including me), but not because of Sniper's reasoning, as Cal also disagreed but for different reasons. So, there are going to be more people who disagreed with Sniper, but agreed with Cal.

These confusing issues are why repeat threads are bad form.
 
Moritzva said:
The previous thread was made by Iam, and was concerning this same topic, except with Iam as the OP and Sniper presenting these same points against it.

It is also worth noting that a lot of people ended up disagreeing with Iam (including me), but not because of Sniper's reasoning, as Cal also disagreed but for different reasons. So, there are going to be more people who disagreed with Sniper, but agreed with Cal.
Click to expand...
Moritzva said:
These confusing issues are why repeat threads are bad form.
Click to expand...
You keep missing the point

The existence of this thread is to link all powers as usable by Arceus.

The last thread, under Iamunanimousinthat authority, limited it to moves only, which is questionable imo, especially when the lore never made such restrictions
Click to expand...
 
Moritzva said:
The previous thread was made by Iam, and was concerning this same topic, except with Iam as the OP and Sniper presenting these same points against it.

It is also worth noting that a lot of people ended up disagreeing with Iam (including me), but not because of Sniper's reasoning, as Cal also disagreed but for different reasons. So, there are going to be more people who disagreed with Sniper, but agreed with Cal.

These confusing issues are why repeat threads are bad form.
Click to expand...
Okay. I will ask all of the involved staff members for input help in lack of better options.
Sniper670 said:
I'll put @Executor_N0 explanation here:

"So, the way I see it the relationship between Arceus, the plates and Pokémon, in general, can be very vague.

First of all, I agree that Arceus as the original Heart that is all-encompassing should have all abilities as that version of Arceus is collectively all of existence combined and every single being is just a manifestation of a possibility that it already encompassed. So when talking about myths and similar things, I think that Arceus could include every possibility in the Pokémon world because Arceus is everything.

In regards to the avatars and plates in general, it's strange because the lore is strange. A lot of times when they are discussed it's talked about as if there was a single set of Plates. Of course, in the 12th Arceus recovering the plates was a big thing, the same with the HG/SS manga and in a way even Legends Arceus... and yet the plates still exist somewhere else and multiple of them are confirmed to exist at the same time.

For the anime, while the Draco and Splash Plates were being used in the Jewel of Life, it was also being used by Team Galatic in order to get the Spear Key. While the Jewel of Life was still a thing and Arceus was mad at humans, Arceus still should have helped the people at the Arche Valley not only sharing part of its power but directly leading the power of the Plates, including the Splash Plate, to seal Hoopa. And this isn't even counting that now Arceus showed the Fairy Plate and for some reason, Team Galatic was in control over the Flame Plate in the recent Arceus' special.

And this isn't even considering the games that showed multiple plates existing at the same time and even being acknowledged, with the ones in the Abyssal Ruins
being directly mentioned not only in gameplay but also in the Pokémon Mystery Files on the "I Love Pokémon Club".

The truth is that the physical manifestations of Arceus and the Plates are full of vagueness and sometimes clear plotholes that not only contradict the settings but even the story itself. Because for some reason Arceus was mad at the Jewel of Life and couldn't use their powers... yet Arceus still was using it to seal Hoopa and Team Galatic used the same plates in the Jewel of Life. Even not considering the anime, the games themselves also make a lot of use of "there are multiple plates", even with that being illogical with all the lore and whole propose for the Legend Arceus post-game.

In the end, I feel that anything in regards to the physical manifestation of Arceus is only there as a plot excuse from the eyes of Arceus itself, as in the Arceus' special they showed how easily Arceus could get the Flame Plate, and yet Arceus allowed the humans to work on that because Arceus "doesn't act and only wants the better for humanity and Pokémon", the same feeling given in the manga.

So, I can definitely see Arceus as a whole being able to use every power and the Plates having something to do with the creation of the universe and the powers every Pokémon has, although the physical manifestation and the plates sometimes have contradictory depictions even inside the same media, so if necessary I wouldn't be totally against a note acknowledging the contradictions even if we address that the contradictions and limitations seems to now be explained as "Arceus just wanted to test mankind and the Pokémon"
Click to expand...
@DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @GyroNutz @Elizhaa @Maverick_Zero_X @Executor_N0 @FinePoint @The_real_cal_howard

Does the above post make logical sense to you? I would greatly appreciate if as many of you as possible help us to finally reach a conclusion here.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
@DontTalkDT
@Moritzva
@Maverick_Zero_X
@Dereck03
@SamanPatou (though he said he didn't want spoilers from Legends Arceus before, not sure if he has played it yet to be able to comment)
@CloverDragon03 (was called to the thread but didn't comment)
@Everything12 (has already expressed to be neutral)
@LordGriffin1000 (though he didn't comment on the thread itself and was moderating it mainly)
Click to expand...
GyroNutz said:
@DontTalkDT @Moritzva @Maverick_Zero_X @Dereck03 @CloverDragon03 @LordGriffin1000 @Elizhaa @Agnaa Your help here in evaluating this thread would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
Sniper670 said:
@DontTalkDT , @Moritzva , @Agnaa


Moritzva and Agnaa are unavailable atm

I'll recommend those who participated in the creator gods thread.

Also try getting @Elizhaa too.
Click to expand...
 
Yes, because I was busy with exams, as I said. It isn't the fault of anyone here, but the trend of retrying threads will lead to scenarios where some relevant voices won't have the time to attend. I've said as much.
 
What about the voices of the new staff? Who couldn't also participate in the original for myriad of reasons, are they not important voices as well?
 
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