Perpetua Downgrade

[Deagonx]

Actually it still would be, the structure still transcends the multiverse.

It's outside of the multiverse, certainly. But "transcend" is a rather nebulous term that often doesn't have a specific meaning in-verse nor does it necessitate being 2-A. Beings from the multiverse have defeated beings from the Sphere pretty regularly and vice versa.

There are also infinite timelines though so destroying the multiverse would still be 2-A.

I don't necessarily agree. Most fictional universes have variant timelines, if you destroy the universe it would subsequently erase all of that universes timelines.

For example, we know there are alternate timelines in Dragon Ball, yet we have Grand Zeno at 2-C because he only destroys one universe to a handful of universes at a time. He doesn't become 2-A just because those universes have alt-timelines.

The idea that timeline = universe is kind of iffy and would need direct substantiation in the fictional work itself, rather than a gut assumption or a crossover assumption from a different fiction.

I am showing the insanity of some posts and hatred towards DC and Marvel and wank and favoritism towards anime.

DC is my favorite fictional verse, but my love for DC does not equate to wanking them on battleboards. Likewise, this isn't the venue for your concerns with battleboarding culture. Please take this discussion elsewhere.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree that the off-topic derailing needs to stop.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Your help with figuring out what they should rationally be downgraded to and why would be extremely appreciated.

Well there's ultimately two ways of doing this. We either use a composite cosmology like with Marvel or our current DC system or we separate cosmology by general trends and authors. If it's the former nothing changes about her. The latter would have us use the Snyder-Morrison cosmology, where she would be 2-C or being generous with Hypertime scaling, 2-B.

 

[Amakasu]

Oh boy. Why can't people see this Universal thing is very inconsistent. She arguably scales above myx and others who themselves have set of multiversal feats. I may elaborate later if I got the time to gather my scans

 

[Greenshifter]

It's outside of the multiverse, certainly. But "transcend" is a rather nebulous term that often doesn't have a specific meaning in-verse nor does it necessitate being 2-A. Beings from the multiverse have defeated beings from the Sphere pretty regularly and vice versa.

Low Complex Multiverse level (Exists in the Sphere of the Gods, a metaphysical reality which is a higher plane of existence than the Orrery of Worlds, which contains the 5-dimensional Bleed). This is from Hecate's page, I don't agree with the 5D Bleed thing (I have the Bleed higher and it shouldn't scale to the 5th dimension since that's even higher). This is what I describe as transcending. Beings from the sphere use avatars who only have 3D or 4D power, hence they get defeated by mortals.

I don't necessarily agree. Most fictional universes have variant timelines, if you destroy the universe it would subsequently erase all of that universes timelines.

For example, we know there are alternate timelines in Dragon Ball, yet we have Grand Zeno at 2-C because he only destroys one universe to a handful of universes at a time. He doesn't become 2-A just because those universes have alt-timelines.

The idea that timeline = universe is kind of iffy and would need direct substantiation in the fictional work itself, rather than a gut assumption or a crossover assumption from a different fiction.

I've never seen anyone claim that destroying a single universe would cause a chain reaction where all of it's timelines get destroyed.

Actually in DB 1 timeline contains several universes and Zen'o only destroyed 1 timeline, DB also tends to be an exception. DB Xenoverse/Heroes however is in fact 2-A for destroying infinite timelines, each containing 12 universes.

Destroying a timeline is equal to destroying a space-time continuum which is what low 2-C and all other tier 2 tiers are based on. Someone saying they'll destroy a timeline is seen as a better statement or feat than someone saying they'll destroy a universe on VSBW. Because universe could also mean all physical matter in the universe, but not it's space-time.

 

[Greenshifter]

Well there's ultimately two ways of doing this. We either use a composite cosmology like with Marvel or our current DC system or we separate cosmology by general trends and authors. If it's the former nothing changes about her. The latter would have us use the Snyder-Morrison cosmology, where she would be 2-C or being generous with Hypertime scaling, 2-B.

Due to Hypertime and Convergence all previous cosmologies still exist though. There's also no proof that higher realms such as the Sphere of the Gods got retconned I think.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Due to Hypertime and Convergence all previous cosmologies still exist though. There's also no proof that higher realms such as the Sphere of the Gods got retconned I think.

The issue isn't that they're retconned as much as they're treated differently under different people. Morrison's 5th dimension is different from Snyder's. Hypertime under Alex Ross operates differently than how Grsnt writes it in small ways.

If we're keeping everything in one bundle then she likely just keeps her rating. But if we're doing it by author/storyline she's scaling much lower.

 

[Amakasu]

It's outside of the multiverse, certainly. But "transcend" is a rather nebulous term that often doesn't have a specific meaning in-verse nor does it necessitate being 2-A. Beings from the multiverse have defeated beings from the Sphere pretty regularly and vice versa.

first of all, bleed is atleast 5th dimensional due to one particular scan of bleed rotating around the 5th dimension but I do have scaling that puts it above low 1c. Also regarding them loosing, first of all dc in itself will have inconsistency because how massive the verse is and decades of story writing and such, therefore you have to see what's the most consistent scaling and not one outlier. Plus new gods and such uses avatars. So trying to scale new gods to their Avatars is not applicable. Plus when in a lower plane they do get weaker.

 

[Greenshifter]

I might be mixing up the exact names but Snyder is the one with 5D defined as imagination right, but he's also the one who has Mxy hold Morrison's multiverse map and essentially has Mxy as superior to the entire map?

Hypertime from Grant also has references to previous cosmologies (the one from Flash War?) and Morrison also backs this up in his interview.

There's also the Gods essentially being living concepts, something which is hard to "treat differently". In every cosmology there will be at least 1 level of transcendence between the Sphere of the Gods and the regular multiverse.

I’m not necessarily opposed to splicing between writers. It’s just that we need to be sure that higher-dimensional structures actually got retconned since it’s quite hard to do given their function doesn’t really work if you put them at levels that do not transcend the multiverse anymore.

 

[San-Kakarot]

Perpetua Weakened High 3-A - Low 2-C At Peak
The Anti-Monitor High 3-A At Peak
The Monitor High 3-A
The World Forger High 3-A
Cosmic Armor Superman High 1-B
Mandrakk High 1-B
Doctor Manhattan Base Low 2-C - Low 1-C While Amped
The Batman Who Laughs Low 2-C
Wonder Woman Low 2-C

 

[Amakasu]

Perpetua Weakened High 3-A - Low 2-C At Peak
The Anti-Monitor High 3-A At Peak
The Monitor High 3-A
The World Forger High 3-A
Cosmic Armor Superman High 1-B
Mandrakk High 1-B
Doctor Manhattan Base Low 2-C - Low 1-C While Amped
The Batman Who Laughs Low 2-C
Wonder Woman Low 2-C

Why is cas high 1b? Dc dosent have infinte Dimensions. Plus they are outerversal anyway

 

[San-Kakarot]

Why is cas high 1b? Dc dosent have infinte Dimensions. Plus they are outerversal anyway

My mistake I meant 1-B. I was typing to fast.

 

[Greenshifter]

Why is cas high 1b? Dc dosent have infinte Dimensions. Plus they are outerversal anyway

It does have infinite dimensions.

 

[Amakasu]

It does have infinite dimensions.

Yes, dc does have infinte dimensions but in vsb due to a certain downgrade the infinte dimensions are removed.

 

[Greenshifter]

Ah bleed doesn’t count for infinite superiority? You’d think being in a completely unrecognizable realm by only going up one level of transcendence would count as infinite superiority... apparently not.

 

[Greenshifter]

Also for everyone’s reference: This (and episode 2) might be a good starting point for DC cosmology, without having to go through mind-breaking blogs. It’s not really what I know some people believe the cosmology to be but I think it’s a good compromise and definitely better than what we currently have on VSBW.

 

[San-Kakarot]

Also for everyone’s reference: This (and episode 2) might be a good starting point for DC cosmology, without having to go through mind-breaking blogs. It’s not really what I know some people believe the cosmology to be but I think it’s a good compromise and definitely better than what we currently have on VSBW.

It is too late. CAS will be downgraded to High 1-B/1-B

 

[Amakasu]

It is too late. CAS will be downgraded to High 1-B/1-B

You literally make no sense. Monitor sphere is 1A, cas is above that. He is also related to the overvoid, so one more 1A scaling.

 

[San-Kakarot]

You literally make no sense. Monitor sphere is 1A, cas is above that. He is also related to the overvoid, so one more 1A scaling.

@Antvasima He is an expert on DC cosmology and can tell wank from downplaying. You should ask him on that matter since he will say "1-A is wank".

 

[Amakasu]

@Antvasima He is an expert on DC cosmology and can tell wank from downplaying. You should ask him on that matter since he will say "1-A is wank".

I don't care about him saying it's wank or downplay. I only care what's given.

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

Isn't 6dimension outside monitor sphere?
If perpetua is not 1-A, isn't monitor sphere not 1-A?

 

[San-Kakarot]

I don't care about him saying it's wank or downplay. I only care what's given.

What is your view on the current tiers of the characters? Is it too high, low or is it spot on?

 

[Deagonx]

Low Complex Multiverse level (Exists in the Sphere of the Gods, a metaphysical reality which is a higher plane of existence than the Orrery of Worlds, which contains the 5-dimensional Bleed).

To be clear, most realms in the Sphere of the Gods are not metaphysical.

Apokolips: The planet of the elder gods was described as dwarfing galaxies, which is only possible if it is physical.

New Genesis: The cities are described as a thousand miles wide.

Apokolips: Supergirl went to Apokolips without a boom tube and was smaller than Granny Goodness as a result, maintaining her original physical size.

Heaven: A lilim drops a block of marble on an angel, killing him, showing physical properties like gravity and impact.

I've never seen anyone claim that destroying a single universe would cause a chain reaction where all of it's timelines get destroyed.

Actually in DB 1 timeline contains several universes and Zen'o only destroyed 1 timeline, DB also tends to be an exception. DB Xenoverse/Heroes however is in fact 2-A for destroying infinite timelines, each containing 12 universes.

Destroying a timeline is equal to destroying a space-time continuum which is what low 2-C and all other tier 2 tiers are based on. Someone saying they'll destroy a timeline is seen as a better statement or feat than someone saying they'll destroy a universe on VSBW. Because universe could also mean all physical matter in the universe, but not it's space-time.

It's not a chain reaction. Alternate timelines are temporal variances in the 4th dimension -- time. All of the timelines exist within a single spacetime continuum, AKA a universe. There's no hard/fast rule about what a timeline constitutes because the notion is purely fictional, which means it's up to the author. I've never seen any evidence from DC that suggests infinite timelines of a single universe are tantamount to an infinite number of universes.

So again, destroying the universe includes its timelines, in a single spacetime continuum.

Beings from the sphere use avatars who only have 3D or 4D power, hence they get defeated by mortals.

Darkseid and some other New Gods are the only beings who used avatars, but even they have been defeated inside of the Sphere themselves, which means they weren't using avatars.

Due to Hypertime and Convergence all previous cosmologies still exist though. There's also no proof that higher realms such as the Sphere of the Gods got retconned

Hypertime doesn't mean all cosmologies exist. World Forger created Hypertime thus he is above it entirely, and Hypertime is only for the Orrery and below, not the Sphere, Nil, or the 6th Dimension.

We either use a composite cosmology like with Marvel or our current DC system or we separate cosmology by general trends and authors. If it's the former nothing changes about her.

I don't necessarily think this is the case. A composite cosmology shouldn't necessarily lean towards the highest showings. Different eras of DC in verse, not just by author, have had different cosmology sizes. World Forger actually goes over the changes, showing that the cosmology isn't composite for the highest beings, they witness the changes in real time. Perpetua never tried to destroy the multiverse when it was infinite and we don't know if she would be capable of doing so.

 

[Deagonx]

It does have infinite dimensions.

DC does not have infinite spatial dimensions.

 

[Antvasima]

Qawsedf234 is correct about that different DC authors use very different takes on the scale of the cosmology, which creates insane inconsistencies with our character statistics.

I would appreciate input from @Firestorm808, @Sandman31, and @LuciferDC099 here.

 

[San-Kakarot]

What it is going to be?

 

[Antvasima]

Deagonx:

Do you have any workable suggestions for how we can fix our DC Comics scaling?

 

[Catalyst75]

Why does Perpetua and her children have 2A/1A rating when she said she cannot even destroy more than one universe at a time... Confusing.

The same way a Darkseid Avatar can exist within a Universe, but his true form can collapse the Multiverse if it falls upon it. It's even explained within his run. The Monitors' power is limited within the Multiverse but is greater in the higher dimensions, particularly the ones they are native to. It is why the World Forger had the potential to explore and create trillions of possible future multiverses within the Sixth Dimension and replace the current Multiverse with one of them through a Crisis.

Perpetua is the same. Her power within the Multiverse has a certain limit, but in her natural form, she created the Multiverse and all its domains: the Positive Matter Multiverse, the Sphere of the Gods, the Anti-Matter Universe, and the World Forge/Dark Multiverse.

 

[Confluctor]

I remember a few months ago it was 1A for both keys. I had forgotten they had changed the rating.

Even then, they don't deserve the rating given.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Qawsedf234 is correct about that different DC authors use very different takes on the scale of the cosmology, which creates insane inconsistencies with our character statistics.

I remember a few months ago it was 1A for both keys. I had forgotten they had changed the rating.

Even then, they don't deserve the rating given.

Yeah, when different writers handle cosmology differently, it leads to mad inconsistencies.

Where's Jim Shooter when you need him?

 

[Ionliosite]

Do you have any workable suggestions for how we can fix our DC Comics scaling?

Pretty much the only logical suggestion is not compositing the obviously different cosmologies DC has had. The DC Universe as currently written by Snyder is clearly not structured the same as back when Morrison did his cosmology. If we apply Morrison's stuff to Snyder's, then 1-A Perpetua is perfectly accurate; the issue is that Morrison's cosmology has been retconned, which can be seen as simply looking how different the 5th Dimension is between both, so putting up a thread (preferably staff only so it doesn't suffer from as much derailment as this one does) to separate the current cosmology from Morrison's is the logical way to go.

 

[Amakasu]

Wait, what? Are people really going to say different cosmology for different writers? How does that work exactly? It's not Morrison comics or synder comics but dc comics. If that's the case then lucifer morningstar or the Presence should not be 1A because different writers have different interpretation, like in 2000 the Presence is one who created the Universe and not perpetua. Like are people going to retcon all of the consistency of the previous dc Cosmology because just one writer is stupid?

 

[Eficiente]

Just adding in that yes, that is entirely within what can happen. Without a writer being stupid and all.

 

[Amakasu]

Just adding in that yes, that is entirely within what can happen. Without a writer being stupid and all.

I don't really care

 

[Deagonx]

Deagonx:

Do you have any workable suggestions for how we can fix our DC Comics scaling?

I think it's important to examine the cosmologies in context. DC might be a mess of retcons, but thankfully many of those changes to the multiverse happened in real time, or can be worked into previous stories. The change from an infinite multiverse, to a single universe, to 52 universes, back to a full infinite multiverse were all actual events and changes that the cosmic beings observed. Now when we look at older vertigo characters like Lucifer, the Presence, the Endless, etc, their main feats take place during a period of infinite universes, and beings like the Presence have had their role upgraded in recent times (the Presence and the Source being described as the top beings above Super Celestials) and bring their associated scaling with them (the Presence's sons Lucifer and Michael)

I think particularly in the case of Perpetua, ignoring the numerous descriptions of her destroying universes one by one and saying that her multiverse has 52 universes would be exaggerating her power. Her sons scale to her, the Monitors scale to her son Mar Novu, so on and so forth. If you want I can provide what I think would be appropriate scaling in context for various characters, but it will take me some time to make sure it's airtight and substantiated by scans.

I think for characters in multiple cosmologies or who have had a consistent role (such as the Source) it's best to use the most recent cosmology, adding in older cosmology if it doesn't conflict directly with new information (for example, the Presence once created the multiverse, but now his role is supervisory, but since he's still present in the current canon he should scale to the newest information)

The same way a Darkseid Avatar can exist within a Universe, but his true form can collapse the Multiverse if it falls upon it.

The collapse of the multiverse was due to a singularity/black hole at the center, not because of the presence of Darkseid's true form. That was damaging the multiverse and he was trying to pull the multiverse into the black hole, but it wasn't simply that the Multiverse couldn't handle his truee form.

Perpetua is the same. Her power within the Multiverse has a certain limit, but in her natural form, she created the Multiverse and all its domains: the Positive Matter Multiverse, the Sphere of the Gods, the Anti-Matter Universe, and the World Forge/Dark Multiverse.

Her ability to create the multiverse was due to an endowment of creation given to her by the Presence/Sourrce, even the energies such as the Sphere of the Gods were entrusted to her, it's not an innate quality of her power.

If we apply Morrison's stuff to Snyder's, then 1-A Perpetua is perfectly accurate; the issue is that Morrison's cosmology has been retconned, which can be seen as simply looking how different the 5th Dimension is between both, so putting up a thread (preferably staff only so it doesn't suffer from as much derailment as this one does) to separate the current cosmology from Morrison's is the logical way to go.

This is most logical, in my opinion. I think characters who are brought into new canon and should scale to the newest cosmology. For example, the Presence and Source were still mentioned and implicated in current canon, so we don't necessarily need to confine them to storylines they were more prominent in.

Wait, what? Are people really going to say different cosmology for different writers? How does that work exactly? It's not Morrison comics or synder comics but dc comics. If that's the case then lucifer morningstar or the Presence should not be 1A because different writers have different interpretation, like in 2000 the Presence is one who created the Universe and not perpetua. Like are people going to retcon all of the consistency of the previous dc Cosmology because just one writer is stupid?

The cosmology changes in the comic itself, it's not simply retcons. But the writer isn't being stupid by changing the cosmology. The newest cosmology updates the old and changes it. There have been innumerous changed to the cosmology over the years. The creation of "The Endless" in Sandman is changing the cosmology. The creation of the Monitors in Brave New World changed the Cosmology. It's the nature of the verse.

 

[Amakasu]

The cosmology changes in the comic itself, it's not simply retcons. But the writer isn't being stupid by changing the cosmology. The newest cosmology updates the old and changes it. There have been innumerous changed to the cosmology over the years. The creation of "The Endless" in Sandman is changing the cosmology. The creation of the Monitors in Brave New World changed the Cosmology. It's the nature of the verse.

No, nothing major has been contradicted in death metal but just elaborated further. Bleed, the sphere of the gods, limbo, the monitor sphere, the source wall, the source itself and others are still present. The only thing that changed was myx and his dimension which even previously was sometimes said to be imagination in the old comics. There's no major contradiction to dc cosmology just expanded further.

I'll also elaborate to your sphere of the gods statement that it's "physical" for some reason despite the comic directly saying it's metaphysical.

 

[Amakasu]

Also lucifer is around the time of post crisis which has 52 Universes. Lol

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

No, nothing major has been contradicted in death metal but just elaborated further. Bleed, the sphere of the gods, limbo, the monitor sphere, the source wall, the source itself and others are still present. The only thing that changed was myx and his dimension which even previously was sometimes said to be imagination in the old comics. There's no major contradiction to dc cosmology just expanded further.

I'll also elaborate to your sphere of the gods statement that it's "physical" for some reason despite the comic directly saying it's metaphysical.

I'd honestly consider Death Metal a different cosmology and a contradiction. Then again, that's just me. It's BWL related, so naturally I wouldn't touch it to make sure.

 

[Deagonx]

I'll also elaborate to your sphere of the gods statement that it's "physical" for some reason despite the comic directly saying it's metaphysical.

I provided ample evidence for this in the comment I said it in.

Also lucifer is around the time of post crisis which has 52 Universes. Lol

Lucifer is ongoing. There are still Lucifer comics being published currently.

 

[Amakasu]

I provided ample evidence for this in the comment I said it in.


Lucifer is ongoing. There are still Lucifer comics being published currently.

Ok? I'll bring more scans that support my argument. And also it's Fiction, you can't have a full scope of the philosophy or system they are based upon because they are stories. Just because an angel got killed by a bolder dosen't mean the realm isn't metaphysical. It's just Fictional and I'll later address my other problems with your argument if I got the chance.

Lucifer 2018 finished recently which dosen't even matter. Lucifer 2000 takes place in around spectre volume 4 which is in post crisis the time when 52 Universes were a thing. 2016 is a follow-up but not sure how much time which dosen't even matter, and 2018 is before 2000.