- 10,398
- 4,564
She is explicitly superior to Mr. Mxyzptlk. She ain’t getting down from tier 1 at full power or whatever. The OP also proved she was practically at full power during the comic, meaning her low-end should probably be removed.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Perpetua Downgrade
- Thread starter Deagonx
- Start date
- Status
- 7,889
- 14,936
- Thread starter
- #42
What? What evidence do you have of this? She literally explained several times she was going to destroy all the universes. Why would this apply to "known" universes, and how would Perpetua not know about the other universes in her local multiverse that she created? Why would Perpetua's goal of resetting the multiverse only apply to a subsection of her multiverse? This is nonsensical.
Provide evidence for the claim that Perpetua was only referring to a subsection of the multiverse rather than the entire thing, and that Perpetua would only care about those universes for some undisclosed reason.
During her fight with TDK, there were only six universes, this was sourced in the OP. That is a multi-universal feat at best, which would only be 2-C at best.
- 922
- 961
I mean, the 52 Universe thing has been compared to flat Earth and said scan also confirms there being Infinite Worlds (Justice League: The New Frontier Special), so I have to disagree with that part.
- 10,398
- 4,564
You see the multiverse shatter and it was not unstable. It was already made, just needed a strike to replace the current one so the only way it would get destroyed would be if someone destroyed it.
- 7,889
- 14,936
- Thread starter
- #45
That scan is a tie-in comic for a cartoon movie, not something that was printed as part of a proper DC story. Nonetheless, one throwaway joke from a cartoon's tie-in comic would not override 52, Final Crisis, Countdown, Justice League, and Death Metal.
The editor explicitly said otherwise.
- 10,398
- 4,564
I’d say death of the author if implied otherwise although you may have a point. Stability has been brought up in the original Superman upgrade thread but I do not know if we accounted for the Twitter statement back then.
- 10,398
- 4,564
You’re right. Mr. Mxyzptlk sees the entire multiverse map under himself. Which contains 1-A realms such as Heaven (and I’ve gotten pretty much confirmation from someone knowledgeable that even with the new standards DC would still be outerversal) and the Monitor Sphere. So his 5th dimension would be 1-A actually and the 6th dimension transcends that. (And you could also argue High 1-A but I don’t have the scans for that)
So Perpetua would be 1-A via mere existence and you pretty much proved she was at full power during the comic. You could maybe argue in-universe vs true state but I don’t think that’s ever stated to be a thing for herself but rather her sons.
- 7,889
- 14,936
- Thread starter
- #48
What makes Heaven 1-A exactly?
- 10,398
- 4,564
- 1,304
- 1,041
Because that's what we see her destroying before she fights the BWL. As literally shown in your scans she's destroying the 52 universes. So that's what said feat would scale to.
First of all. Perpetua only destroyed universes before her fight with the TDK. Unless you have proof that she destroyed other structures than those structures still exist. However just by reading the comic, we're already introduced to more things that still exist right before there fight such as the Sphere of Gods, time, and Bleed Space. So Perpetua did not destroy everything in the cosmology but six earths. And if she did, you'd be now supporting her getting an upgrade and not a downgrade.
First of all. Perpetua only destroyed universes before her fight with the TDK. Unless you have proof that she destroyed other structures than those structures still exist. However just by reading the comic, we're already introduced to more things that still exist right before there fight such as the Sphere of Gods, time, and Bleed Space. So Perpetua did not destroy everything in the cosmology but six earths. And if she did, you'd be now supporting her getting an upgrade and not a downgrade.
Last edited:
- 7,889
- 14,936
- Thread starter
- #51
What are you talking about? Where is this delineation made that she's only destroying the "known worlds" rather than all of them? Where is the evidence that there are any more than the 52 she says exist in her multiverse?
She destroys them one by one, she explains this explicitly as well as BWL.
I never referenced any other structures. The scan literally says "tear down the Orrery of Worlds." and "there are only six universes left in the multiverse."
Okay? I was obviously referring to the 52 universes in the multiverse.
- 5,554
- 2,329
Just pointing it out there, that one of the main characters involved in the whole arc comes from Earth-53.
- 7,889
- 14,936
- 10,398
- 4,564
- 7,889
- 14,936
- Thread starter
- #55
Each earth doesn't only have one speedster. Jay, Barry, Wally, Bart, and thats just the main Flashes.
- 5,554
- 2,329
That has nothing to do with naming conventions. There's more than 52 universes. That's all I'm pointing out.
- 1,304
- 1,041
It's shown to us in the scan you posted. She destroyed 1 of the 52 known worlds.
I also never disagreed with her destroying them 1 by 1. And I never disagreed with her objective being tearing down the Orrery of Worlds. What I'm saying is that's all she was doing prior to fighting the Batman Who Laughs. Meaning the rest of the cosmology should have still existed and during which she was going to collapse as it's directly said she was going to collapse entire system of the Multiverse in a battle that raged across every facet of reality. Which is what we she scales to in her lower state.
I also never disagreed with her destroying them 1 by 1. And I never disagreed with her objective being tearing down the Orrery of Worlds. What I'm saying is that's all she was doing prior to fighting the Batman Who Laughs. Meaning the rest of the cosmology should have still existed and during which she was going to collapse as it's directly said she was going to collapse entire system of the Multiverse in a battle that raged across every facet of reality. Which is what we she scales to in her lower state.
- 7,889
- 14,936
- Thread starter
- #58
Why are you willfully altering what the text says? She does not say "known worlds." She says "there were 52 universes in this perversion of my multiverse."
No "known." She explains quite clearly in that very scan you posted that her multiverse only has 52.
The term "multiverse" has been used at different times to refer to the entire structure or the collection of universes in different contexts.
- 1,304
- 1,041
Because that's the context for what those worlds are. There's no need to even delve into semantics because that's what the context literally is for those 52 universes.
And as I already said, their battle raged across every facet of reality and was going to collapse the entire system which is what we scaled her lower state to.
And as I already said, their battle raged across every facet of reality and was going to collapse the entire system which is what we scaled her lower state to.
- 7,889
- 14,936
- Thread starter
- #60
You are inserting your own words into the comic and calling it context lmao. Perpetua said it definitively, there's no room for "known worlds" in the way that she said it. Even less so with the way Flash said it:
"Fifty-two universes make up the multiverse."
It's that simple, there's no room for known or unknown there. The very fact that a secret 53rd universe was a surprise to the Justice League proves that there are not infinite universes during this storyline.
Further, the Multiverse becomes infinite at the end of the event, and that would make no sense if it were already infinite. So again, where is your proof that she meant "known worlds" rather than what she actually said? You're rewriting the comic, so you surely have a good reason?
Yes, because destroying all of the universes would destroy everything else. Without mortals to believe in Gods, they would disappear.
- 1,304
- 1,041
I'm talking about the context surrounding the idea, not just within a specific statement. The 52 universes are the known worlds. This has been established in DC's history. There really is no, if, ands, or buts about it.
I like how you cut the image of the scan where it mentions The Source existing due to Gods believing in it. Perpetua and TDK fighting was not going to indirectly kill The Source. It was going to destroy reality as a whole.
I like how you cut the image of the scan where it mentions The Source existing due to Gods believing in it. Perpetua and TDK fighting was not going to indirectly kill The Source. It was going to destroy reality as a whole.
- 15,441
- 5,031
The people wanting this closed is clearly on the wrong. If there is stuff to be argued against about our stats that is solid at glance then we are doing something wrong, "it turns out we already talked about this" or "it turns out I have scans and info that supports our stats as they are" are no reasons to silence something like this. If we were mature enough about this we would just figure we aren't being as competent as we could.
- 7,889
- 14,936
- Thread starter
- #63
Again, you have failed to substantiate this claim in a way that does not blatantly conflict with the information we have from Death Metal. There are many unanswered questions in the interpretation you are offering.
1) How and why wouldn't Perpetua know about the other worlds? If she knows them, why are only 52 "known?"
2) Why would Perpetua focus on the "known worlds" of her multiverse?
3) How come this concept went entirely unmentioned in the entire storyline?
4) If there are infinite universes outside of the 52, how can Perpetua threaten them given that she has to destroy universes one by one?
Because it's entirely irrelevant to the discussion. The point is, the belief of mortals is the lifeline of the Sphere. Without any universes, there is no belief to sustain it.
So, again, per the comic, Perpetua and TDK's battle was threatening a finite six universes. You've repeatedly failed to substantiate claims otherwise.
- 1,304
- 1,041
Last comment because this discussion has peaked.
You really haven't proven how it conflicts with anything. Your only example was to say it was never mentioned within a statement as if that matters when it was already said in the past.
1) Why would we assume she doesn't know them? I don't recall there being an explanation for why the 52 known worlds are the only known worlds but you can ask a writer if you want.
2) Why not?
3) Why would it have to be mentioned again to be substantiated if it was already mentioned in the past?
4) In terms of universes after she wiped out the 52 known universes she would reshape the universe or something like that.
Belief shapes the Gods but The Sphere itself can exist without Gods. As it literally predates the inhabitants within it anyway.
Also once again, we're directly shown that the DC Multiverse contained more than just six spared universes during this time. The Sphere of Gods, Bleed space, etc all still existed.
You really haven't proven how it conflicts with anything. Your only example was to say it was never mentioned within a statement as if that matters when it was already said in the past.
1) Why would we assume she doesn't know them? I don't recall there being an explanation for why the 52 known worlds are the only known worlds but you can ask a writer if you want.
2) Why not?
3) Why would it have to be mentioned again to be substantiated if it was already mentioned in the past?
4) In terms of universes after she wiped out the 52 known universes she would reshape the universe or something like that.
Belief shapes the Gods but The Sphere itself can exist without Gods. As it literally predates the inhabitants within it anyway.
Also once again, we're directly shown that the DC Multiverse contained more than just six spared universes during this time. The Sphere of Gods, Bleed space, etc all still existed.
Last edited:
- 7,889
- 14,936
- Thread starter
- #65
This is a blatant misrepresentation of the discussion. There are many serious conflicts that I brought up, and you didn't manage to address a single one, you resorted to simply repeating yourself.
These are the main conflicts:
1. The sentence structure of many of the 52 universe scans leave no room for extra universes. Someone saying "the multiverse is made up of 52 universes" does not allow for this willful insertion of "known." Likewise for Perpetua saying "this multiverse has 52 universes."
2. Perpetua's goals and methodology fall apart in consideration of your interpretation. BWL tracked her progress by the 52 universes in the multiverse, if there were infinite universes the reality would be that she was making no progress whatsoever. This makes your interpretation incoherent.
3. If there are indeed infinite universes, why is it that they were never mentioned anywhere in this storyline? Did it escape the notice of every cosmic being involved?
4. If there are infinite universes, why would the return to an infinite multiverse at the end of the event have any significance? That would just be business as usual, yet it was clearly presented as a definite change from the former arrangement (52 universes only), which makes your interpretation, again, incoherent.
This isn't answering the question.
She said "this perversion of my multiverse has 52 universes, now it has 51." This line makes no sense if the true number is infinity, and Perpetua is aware of all of them. The statement becomes nonsensical.
This isn't answering the question. Likewise, her goals as she explains them are explicitly centered around wiping out all life in the multiverse and recreating it. This, again, becomes incoherent if there are truly infinity and she only destroys 52 of them.
This isn't answering the question. The mention in the past was in a different storyline by a different author, before Perpetua was even written in DC. So if there are truly infinite universes, why was it never mentioned again?
This is functionally the same as saying "it makes no sense and I have no explanation."
Therefore, you admit that your interpretation doesn't fit within the context of Perpetua's goals and abilities.
The Sphere always had an inhabitant, Hecate, the Collective Unconscious which depends on the belief of mortals for her power. Likewise, even if we assume that the Sphere can exist without mortals, theres no evidence that destroying an empty Sphere of the Gods would be more difficult than destroying a universe.
There's no evidence any of those things qualitatively change the challenge of destroying the multiverse beyond the remaining six universes.
- 47
- 20
I agree, much like what Antvasima says, DC Comics statistics are severely exaggerated. Hope the rest realizes this
- 277
- 93
Perpetua doesn't look more than Low 2-C to me.
- 10,398
- 4,564
That might be fair.
Actually it still would be, the structure still transcends the multiverse. You may have a point on there just being 52 earths Post-Flashpoint though, I thought this got retconned but if it did it seems to not have gotten retconned hard enough. There are also infinite timelines though so destroying the multiverse would still be 2-A.
Last edited:
- 12,671
- 9,623
Quick Question: do you have the scan for infinite timelines? (In the current continuity). I cannot seem to find it/remember it.
- 10,398
- 4,564
I know Oliver kinda abandoned his blog but the scans there should still be valid and I think there’s also post-flashpoint stuff there.Here's a blog explaining the magnitude of the DC multiverse
DC Infinity x infinity above baseline
vsbattles.fandom.com
- 431
- 73
Anime fanboy logic: Anime character destroys a galaxy he is multiversal. When DC or Marvel character destroys a multiverse he is galaxy level.
- 431
- 73
Ca
Tage some staffs.
- 12,304
- 11,259
As an anime fan, I laughed at the joke lol
As an anime fan who powerscales, I disagree with you there, broski...
- 167,857
- 76,474
I also think that Perpetua, The Anti-Monitor, The Monitor, The World Forger, Cosmic Armor Superman, Mandrakk, Doctor Manhattan, The Batman Who Laughs, and Wonder Woman are insanely wanked and should be significantly downgraded.
@C2_of_Omegon @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Tllmbrg
Your help with figuring out what they should rationally be downgraded to and why would be extremely appreciated.
@C2_of_Omegon @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Tllmbrg
Your help with figuring out what they should rationally be downgraded to and why would be extremely appreciated.
- 12,304
- 11,259
Quick derail: I hate this character. His storylines straight up insult my intelligence. I don't care what happens in terms of the scaling, mainly because I'm not super knowledgeable on DC. But I will say that this character is just... I'm not touching anything BWL with a 39 and a half foot pole.
- 12,304
- 11,259
Bro, if you don't like Bleach and/or disagree with how it's scaled, that's cool. But you shouldn't feel the need to bash anime you don't like. It kind of seems like you're legitimately going out of your way to do that, since no one brought up Bleach in this thread at all.
- 431
- 73
I am showing the insanity of some posts and hatred towards DC and Marvel and wank and favoritism towards anime.
- 12,304
- 11,259
Naw, I'd say it really depends on what verse. We can take this to a convo or to a profile post, since I kind of don't want to derail more than I already have.
- Status
