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Opinions are tense. What is the rating of perpetua?
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Perpetua Downgrade
- Thread starter Deagonx
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I think that you make sense, and would greatly appreciate your help with this. @Firestorm808 , @Sandman31 , and @LuciferDC099 are also knowledgeable enough to help you out with this task.
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Amen.
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Then is the downgrade going to happen? Will perpetua still retain her 1A key?
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What was the problem with the previous one? I don't know much about dc "experts" on this site other than Hyku who left.
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The problem with the previous one was that she was inconsistent and too many retcons so applying an old cosmology to it doesn't make tons of sense imo
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What Retcons exactly? There's literally almost none. Only the 5th dimension is changed
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Different writers contradict each other to an extreme degree regarding the scale of the characters and the cosmology. Even the bureaucrat in charge of the DC Comics wiki agreed with me about that.
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That dosen't answer my question.
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Retcons to monitors and source for example. That is the big ones, but if we include everything then that's to much to name. From Plastic Man to hour man (or was he named starman, kinda forgot it), the lanterns shenanigans, the lex sheningans, etc.
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First of all the monitors existed from coie and they were indeed part of mar novu, plus the crisis events are directly mentioned and it dosen't affect the cosmology either. The source as well was never retconed, the source was consistently shown top dog of DC and it's just expanded further that source is above the source judges and perpetua.
I don't really know about the others.
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The Crisis, Zero Hour and Flashpoint were the big official continuity resets, but the DC writers writers still contradict each other a lot more than what is justified by that.
I have almost stopped reading Marvel and DC Comics though, due to my disinterest in the current stories, given how morbid, disrespectful, or/and incoherent they are nowadays, and am extremely distracted by many other tasks, so I am not able to give you a long list of examples from the top of my head anymore, even though I would have been a few years ago.
However, I have talked with various experts over the years, including in this wiki, and they tend to agree with me.
Morrison, Snyder, Gaiman/Carey, and DeMatteis are the main big DC cosmology writers though, and they have very different takes on the mechanics of how it works.
I have almost stopped reading Marvel and DC Comics though, due to my disinterest in the current stories, given how morbid, disrespectful, or/and incoherent they are nowadays, and am extremely distracted by many other tasks, so I am not able to give you a long list of examples from the top of my head anymore, even though I would have been a few years ago.
However, I have talked with various experts over the years, including in this wiki, and they tend to agree with me.
Morrison, Snyder, Gaiman/Carey, and DeMatteis are the main big DC cosmology writers though, and they have very different takes on the mechanics of how it works.
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Not really? It was never really explicitly shown it was the top dog. One of? Sure, but the main one? I cannot remember that at all. Do you have the source for where it says Source > Overvoid? Last I remember they were considered on equal level... Because the way I read it in Snyder cosmology, the source seen higher in comparison to Overvoid.
Also...
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- Thread starter
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Okay. I'll wait.
This is handwaving. You can't write off a logical error in your interpretation by saying "well it's fiction."
Lucifer 2018 hasn't finished yet. Issues 19-24 aren't yet published.
Are you talking about when it was published or when it takes place in universe? Those two are different. Likewise, Lucifer created his own multiverse.
Okay, I appreciate it.
2-C makes the most sense to me. Further, it is in line with Perpetua's own description of her power. Perpetua has never shown the ability to affect 1000 universes or more in a combat related way, or even a non-combat related way without an amp.
The origin of the Monitors changed several times. First, until Brave New World there were no "Monitors" in the plural, that was their initial introduction in 2006. Their first origin was offered in Countdown, where it was said they were the result of seed programming that activated with Alexander Luthor found Anti-Monitor's body. This was retconned by Final Crisis, which said they were a result of Dax Novu interacting with "story" for the first time, which then "became this history of a once mighty race of Hyper Gods." This was retconned once again in Justice League, when World Forger explained that they were fragments of Mar Novu who split after COIE.
The current origin makes the most sense. Prior to this, it was never really explained why they looked like and were named after the Monitor from COIE. The Final Crisis retcon never accounted for that aspect of them at all.
The Source was also very much retconned. First, the Source never, until this storyline, was connected to an "omniverse" and was primarily considered the "god" of the New Gods. In Death of the New Gods, Darkseid was able to fight the Source 1v1. This is obviously no longer the case, since the Source has been placed several cosmological tiers above Darkseid.
Agreed. Snyder tried to adhere to some aspects of Morrison's cosmology and worked with him on it, but some of the more abstract aspects were ignored entirely. Particularly the idea that the Overvoid is sentient has been ignored, and of course Snyder expanded far above Nil which was previously the highest point in DC's cosmology.
At this point it seems most likely that the Overvoid is literally just a void. None of the other cosmic beings seem to acknowledge the Overvoid as a god of any kind rather than just a void.
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Sorry for the late reply. Let's organize what we have so far of what's above the Sphere of the Gods.
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Honestly, this whole thread is super interesting.
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From the sphere up:
Limbo:
This is a realm of forgotten comic book characters, literally a play on words of the phrase "comic book limbo." Limbo has relatively little battleboarding significance in terms of cosmology scaling.
Nil A.K.A. Monitor Sphere:
Introduced in Final Crisis and formed with the universal structure put in place by Perpetua when she made the multiverse, this was the home of the Monitors before the final crisis, the Monitors themselves being described as fragments of the original Monitor, Mar Novu which occurred after Crisis on Infinite Earths, where Anti-Monitor used the special properties of the Antimatter wave to collapse the entire infinite multiverse, with each universe increasing it's power.
Characters here include the Monitor races (Nix, Mandrakk, Zillo, etc) and Cosmic Armor Superman. The direct feats here are quite vague, no character from this level has been directly implicated in a universal feat or above. Though Mandrakk was said to be capable of "feeding" on all 52 universes present in the Orrery at the time, it is impossible to conclude from available evidence that he could actually destroy the universes outright. Characters here scale below Mar Novu, since they are all fragments of him. 3-A is likely appropriate for the highest beings here (CAS and Mandrakk), but below them the average Monitor is far far weaker, having been defeated in battle by average heroes in Countdown. According to the cosmic map, the Monitor ships are anywhere from 10-40 miles long, and are considered "microscopic" in the Monitor Sphere. It's not clear if the average Monitor is even capable of destroying a galaxy.
Sixth Dimension
This is described by Mxy as the "Multiverse's contrrol room" reserved for only the most powerful beings. The author, Scott Snyder, describes it as a realm for the highest beings in the multiverse. The only 4 people capable of entering it prior to the Source Wall falling were Perpetua and her sons, Monitor, Anti-Monitor, and World Forger.As far as power is concerned, the OP is pretty thorough but I'll repeat the information. Perpetua stated herself that whilst at nearly full power, she was only capable of destroying one universe at a time, needing to recharge her energy in between. Once she finally regained the totality (the Seven Energies of the Universe entrusted to her), she was capable of defeating the Ultra Monitor, a Megazord style combination of all three of her sons.
Even after winning this battle, and having the totality, she was still destroying universes one by one. During her final battle with TDK, even amped on Crisis energy, she was only threatening (with TDK's contribution) a total of six universes that remained in the multiverse.
She has creation feats beyond this, but it was explained that the power and materials to create the multiverse were given to her by the Presence/Source and aren't a part of her base power once she used them up to create the multiverse in the first place.
This is why even under the best of circumstances, Perpetua is 2-C and her sons scale to that, since most of them have shown they can affect individual universes in a meaningful way.
Omniverse/Overvoid/Void
Home to beings like the Chronicler, the Cosmic Raptor, the Judges of the Source, the Presence and the Source, his sons Lucifer and Michael (who created another multiverse here in the void). This is the end of the line for realms in DC. It's vague, nebulous, unexplored, and spoken about mostly in off-panel references. This is where the highest beings of all DC live, dispatching Super Celestials such as Perpetua like servants to create trillions of multiverses. This would be where the Tier 1-A and Tier 0 characters of DC exist, the all-encompassing conceptual abstracts and the god that creates them, and an army of Super Celestials whose sole purpose is to create multiverses akin to the DC Multiverse, and then die, and allow their energy to return to the Source/Presence.
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@Firestorm808 Are you going to respond?
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give him time to respond he’s a busy guy.
I’ll also respond to some arguments here but I am a bit busy for the moment myself.
I’ll also respond to some arguments here but I am a bit busy for the moment myself.
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Why does the take the lowest interpretation of the cosmology?
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Prior to the Source Wall being formed by the Judges, was the "Sixth Dimension" already part of the Overvoid?
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I don't think that was clarified.
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We'll put that as "possibly" then.
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Possibly what?
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What will their current tier be?
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That's what we're sorting out.
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What are the main issues?
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We're working from the bottom up of the comic descriptions and applying it to our tiering system.
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That might be a waste of time. What, if it changes again and again?
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The comic descriptions or the Tiering system?
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The comic descriptions.
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We go by what's most consistent.
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Which cosmology would that be? Wouldn't it be better to take the cosmology that has been most used? Otherwise, you have to constantly change the tier, because different writers have different views.
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We're examining the Grant Morrison Cosmology at the moment.
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He seems to have fled the conversation.
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What do you mean?
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I mean can we do this fast as possible? It's getting tedious seeing threads going all way over five hundred comments.
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