One Piece: Wano Arc Part 2.5: AP and Lifting Revisions; The Shogun

[Damage3245]

But it did fall when Kaido's clouds disappeared, that's the thing.

Okay, I was referring to a different scene.

The thing is, it's odd that it's going UP if we see it lower. Why would it have a straight forward or upwards course if we don't see it go higher UNTIL Momonosuke starts pulling on it?

Because the upwards force being applied to it is less than the force required to stave off its potential energy.

When Kaido first lifted Onigashima, he used Z amount of upwards force to raise it in altitude. When he guided it towards the mainland he used Y amounts of upward force to counteract its potential energy and keep it stable. When he began lowering it towards the Flower Capital, in order not to have an uncontrolled fall that would kill all his men, he lowered the amount of Y force so that Onigashima would descend via gravity but at less than terminal velocity.

Kaido applying upwards force is the reason why the people inside don't comment that they fell like they're falling until his flames disappear completely.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Finally read all of the thread and personally I do see the argument behind the criticisms

Calculating Momo pulling Onigashima is honestly better for scaling IMO

Stopping Onigashima from falling is iffy cause Flame Clouds make things float, that’s just how I see it in my mind

 

[Damage3245]

Finally read all of the thread and personally I do see the argument behind the criticisms

Calculating Momo pulling Onigashima is honestly better for scaling IMO

Stopping Onigashima from falling is iffy cause Flame Clouds make things float, that’s just how I see it in my mind

That's pretty much my thinking.

We could find distance between Onigashima and Flower Capital, and we have a timeframe of 5 mins at most from the manga.

 

[SnookB]

Kaido applying upwards force is the reason why the people inside don't comment that they fell like they're falling until his flames disappear completely.

They have no reason to feel like they are falling if his island was going down gradually and not instantly up until the flames went out.
Even if it started descending those last few seconds then everyone was either drowning or floating in water and wouldn't know until it washed out. We're assuming his flame clouds work by regular physics, which is a little iffy to begin with. The point is, Momo managed to counteract the force of the cloud's pull and main course, and actively drag the island higher.

Calculating Momo pulling Onigashima is honestly better for scaling IMO

Stopping Onigashima from falling is iffy cause Flame Clouds make things float, that’s just how I see it in my mind

Which pull is the question- The whole reason this is seeming like an AP feat and not a lifting only is because of how quickly Momo managed to pull it while mitigating the fall, no?

 

[Damage3245]

They have no reason to feel like they are falling if his island was going down gradually and not instantly up until the flames went out.

Isn't that what I am saying?

Which pull is the question- The whole reason this is seeming like an AP feat and not a lifting only is because of how quickly Momo managed to pull it while mitigating the fall, no?

But that isn't what the calc is for.

 

[SnookB]

Isn't that what I am saying?

Yes- but if it's going down gradually, then it's still going DOWN. Momo still has to pull it UP, which requires opposing force.

But that isn't what the calc is for.

"I'm calculating pretty much the KE of the drop of Onigashima." The calc is for Onigashima falling.
Momo didn't allow it to fall at its full speed, and at the very end basically slowed it entirely with his clouds. His flames scale to its fall because they absorbed the entirely of the impact by the end of it. That's what I understood it as at least

 

[Damage3245]

Yes- but if it's going down gradually, then it's still going DOWN. Momo still has to pull it UP, which requires opposing force.

But not the full opposing force.

"I'm calculating pretty much the KE of the drop of Onigashima." The calc is for Onigashima falling.
Momo didn't allow it to fall at its full speed, and at the very end basically slowed it entirely with his clouds. His flames scale to its fall because they absorbed the entirely of the impact by the end of it. That's what I understood it as at least

That is partly what is in dispute, the assumption that he only slowed it at the very end.

But that's also not the feat you were referring to earlier which is Momonosuke's pulling feat.

 

[SnookB]

That is partly what is in dispute, the assumption that he only slowed it at the very end.

But that's exactly what he did.
It was continuously falling after the clouds went out, and if it continued falling at that speed the bombs would've went off. The only logical reason as to why they didn't is if the island's fall got cancelled out by the clouds at the very end.
We literally see the clouds gathered in a massive amount at the very bottom of the island, which is even further proof that they absorbed the impact. If they couldn't, the island would just fall through them and the gunpowder/bombs would detonate, or at the very least we'd see the base of it break apart. Anything that shows it being not fully stopped.

 

[Damage3245]

It was continuously falling after the clouds went out, and if it continued falling at that speed the bombs would've went off. The only logical reason as to why they didn't is if the island's fall got cancelled out by the clouds at the very end.

Continuously descending is not continuously falling. Not in that sense.

We literally see the clouds gathered in a massive amount at the very bottom of the island, which is even further proof that they absorbed the impact. If they couldn't, the island would just fall through them and the gunpowder/bombs would detonate, or at the very least we'd see the base of it break apart. Anything that shows it being not fully stopped.

I'm in agreement that the clouds worked to absorb the impact. That bit is not in dispute.

 

[KingTempest]

Are we forgetting the fact that it was Momo’s clouds falling that directly caused that calculation?

 

[Damage3245]

Are we forgetting the fact that it was Momo’s clouds falling that directly caused that calculation?

That's not being forgotten about. That is part of what is in dispute here.

 

[KingTempest]

Here’s my question then

If it’s been proven that Momo’s clouds caused that
And Momo himself caused that by pulling his clouds

Wouldn’t that still scale to Momo regardless?

 

[SnookB]

The clouds literally scale to the character's endurance anyway. Just like Doflamingo's bird cage scales to him. Kaido's clouds scale to him while carrying Onigashima and would stop doing their job if Kaido himself gets knocked out. His very existence sustains them.
Momo's clouds have no reason to not be like Kaido's in that regard. It's literally the exact same fruit

 

[KingTempest]

The clouds literally scale to the character's endurance anyway. Just like Doflamingo's bird cage scales to him. Kaido's clouds scale to him while carrying Onigashima and would stop doing their job if Kaido himself gets knocked out. His very existence sustains them.
Momo's clouds have no reason to not be like Kaido's in that regard. It's literally the exact same fruit

No I mean that basically Momo did all the work with his pure physicals

 

[Damage3245]

@SnookB; sorry if I've misunderstood you but that seems like a very weird tangent that doesn't have anything to do with the feat.

 

[SnookB]

No I mean that basically Momo did all the work with his pure physicals

That too.

 

[SnookB]

@SnookB; sorry if I've misunderstood you but that seems like a very weird tangent that doesn't have anything to do with the feat.

Characters' abilities that require their consciousness (at least in One Piece) usually scale to their strength directly.

 

[Damage3245]

Characters' abilities that require their consciousness (at least in One Piece) usually directly scale to their strength directly.

Well, that's a whole other discussion. I don't think that's really a thing on our profiles.

 

[SnookB]

Well, that's a whole other discussion. I don't think that's really a thing on our profiles.

That's the whole shtick behind sustaining an ability. If Kaido couldn't support the island with his clouds then he wouldn't be able to carry it to begin with.

But that aside, like KT said. Momo plays a direct physical role in moving the island by pulling the clouds with his body strength.

 

[Damage3245]

That's the whole shtick behind sustaining an ability. If Kaido couldn't support the island with his clouds then he wouldn't be able to carry it to begin with.

But that aside, like KT said. Momo plays a direct physical role in moving the island by pulling the clouds with his body strength.

Isn't that more of a topic for stamina?

And yeah; I'm not denying that Momonosuke has played a role throughout the sequence I've written up above in pulling the clouds, but that's not what the calc is for.

Mitch said up above that a different calc can be made for that.

 

[KingTempest]

And yeah; I'm not denying that Momonosuke has played a role throughout the sequence I've written up above in pulling the clouds, but that's not what the calc is for.

Mitch said up above that a different calc can be made for that.

No

I mean the calculation in the OP is Momonosuke's physicals pulling the clouds

 

[Damage3245]

No

I mean the calculation in the OP is Momonosuke's physicals pulling the clouds

Okay, then I think we have different interpretations of the feat.

Which reminds me that Therefir's idea to wait for the anime depiction of what exactly is happening isn't so bad after all.

 

[SnookB]

Which reminds me that Therefir's idea to wait for the anime depiction of what exactly is happening isn't so bad after all.

Or Mitch misunderstood that the calc was for Momo's physicals?
Waiting a year and then some is a little much for something this trivial. It can always get changed/taken off when the anime rolls around and the timeframe isn't cinematically stretched to oblivion.

 

[Damage3245]

Or Mitch misunderstood that the calc was for Momo's physicals?
Waiting a year and then some is a little much for something this trivial. It can always get changed/taken off when the anime rolls around and the timeframe isn't cinematically stretched to oblivion.

I think it would be better to err on the side of caution and not add it right away when we get some clarification and then add it in later. It's not like our profiles will suffer from not having this potential feat.

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah we're not waiting a year for that.

There's nothing difficult to discuss.

1. Momonosuke isn't skilled enough to telekinetically control his clouds
   1. He hasn't showed to do it
   2. He didn't even know how to make the clouds
   3. He passed out right after
2. Momonosuke pulled the clouds
   1. We see him pulling it
3. The feat was fast
   1. Luffy didn't even turn to base after the feat ended
   2. It was implied to be very fast
4. Momonosuke mitigated the impact
   1. The island is intact
      1. No bombs blew up
   2. People survived
   3. The island didn't even crack when it landed.

Okay, then I think we have different interpretations of the feat.

Which reminds me that Therefir's idea to wait for the anime depiction of what exactly is happening isn't so bad after all.

I think it would be better to err on the side of caution and not add it right away when we get some clarification and then add it in later. It's not like our profiles will suffer from not having this potential feat.

Waiting for the anime was never standard procedure.
Literally the anime wasn't even allowed to be used for the verse at all until last year.

Also, these dudes adapt like a chapter every 2 episodes. This is gonna take at least a year until we even get to the fight.

I never understood waiting for secondary canon to show something as support. That's like me waiting for a databook to confirm the height of a character before I pixelscale em for a feat.


Before last year, "anime isn't canon. we can't use it for support. it varies too much. just wait until oda tackles it"
Now its "wait for anime".

Oh brother

 

[Damage3245]

@KingTempest; it's not a matter of "Let's wait for the anime to use the anime's version". It's always just been a matter of getting clarification of something ambiguous.

And to rephrase it, I guess it would be more like "I am on the side of rejecting this for now, but if the anime version provides new information showing the feat in the way that the alternative interpretation stated, then the discussion would be re-opened."

Momonosuke isn't skilled enough to telekinetically control his clouds

It's not implied that this even requires any skill as far as I'm aware.

Momonosuke pulled the clouds

Momonosuke pulled Onigashima out of the way of Luffy's fist. That does not mean assuming Momonosuke pulled Onigashima all the way to the ground.

The feat was fast

Only through some implications without confirmation yet.

Momonosuke mitigated the impact

That bit was never in dispute.


Also, your OP was never about "Momonosuke physically pulled Onigashima down to the ground." This is a new argument that I've only seen as recently as this page of the thread.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm going to do a little bit more research into the physics involved here to determine to what extent AP is involved here. Will most likely follow this up tomorrow.

 

[SnookB]

2 things. Momo does seem to have CONTINUED pulling it. When he gets it out the way and the panels after, we see rocks flying to the opposite side of it, meaning it's getting dragged away fast enough that the rocks are falling away from it and not directly under it

When the clash is done, we see the smoke going to the side STILL, and black dots (the rocks) continuing to break off to the side

The implication that it continued getting dragged off to the side is VISUALLY there.

Second-
We have an estimate on how far he pulled it.
The island was behind the giant rocks outside the capital. Here's a shot right before the bajrang Gun started.

Here's where Momo dragged it.

Same angle almost, too. It was a distance away from those giant rocks, and Momo quickly pulled it all the way to land it behind them.

 

[Sword_guy_Z]

What is this stalling? Couldn’t you just make this more simple by tagging other staff members that read One Piece and having them decide who has a stronger argument? Summarize your arguments and your opposer’s arguments and why you believe they are mistaken. Then have them read it and decide.

 

[Damage3245]

What is this stalling? Couldn’t you just make this more simple by tagging other staff members that read One Piece and having them decide who has a stronger argument? Summarize your arguments and your opposer’s arguments and why you believe they are mistaken. Then have them read it and decide.

What stalling?

Also, this is a little bit more complex than just "Rush into a vote and determine by majority rule who is correct". I'd rather the feat were examined in detail and an understanding reached than rushing to a conclusion. The thread hasn't even been up that long.

 

[Sword_guy_Z]

What stalling?

Also, this is a little bit more complex than just "Rush into a vote and determine by majority rule who is correct". I'd rather the feat were examined in detail and an understanding reached than rushing to a conclusion. The thread hasn't even been up that long.

It isn’t “rushing into a vote”. You get more perspectives on the matter and keep your arguments concise and simple. You also address your opposition’s perspective thus demonstrating an understanding of their side. Then you state what you believe that they might be missing. Then all of the staff that reads One Piece can discuss it.

You already examined it enough. You got your points out and made your arguments. Prolonging this is pointless. Let the other staff in.

Also, you act as if “a decision” drastically alters the verse in any way. If they decide against it, the verse stays the exact same. If they decide for it, Kaido still stays on the same Tier, but is High now.

Another thing, what is wrong with allowing other staff to look at this? I am not asking for random people on the site to add their thoughts to a calc, but staff members.

 

[SnookB]

CloverDragon seems for the calc. Mitch is neutral because of reasoning but going by KT, the reasoning is exactly what Mitch wants.
I see no harm in other knowledgeable staff seeing this. If it's as unclear as the Fujitora meteorite feat, then having disagreements based on that logic would be fine, same as the Greenbit Meteorite logic. This seems like far less of a mathematical issue than it is one of interpertation anyway.
If this is correct, then no reason to prolong it or wait a year and then some for the anime to catch up just to have half a chance to land on this exact same value anyway.

 

[Damage3245]

@Sword_guy_Z I didn't say anything was wrong with other staff taking a look at it. They've never been forbidden from looking at this thread at all and we've already had some other staff commenting like Mitch and Therefir.

 

[Sword_guy_Z]

@Sword_guy_Z I didn't say anything was wrong with other staff taking a look at it. They've never been forbidden from looking at this thread at all and we've already had some other staff commenting like Mitch and Therefir.

So, it is good to get other staff perspectives on this in order to avoid prolonging this thread then? Sounds good to me.

 

[Damage3245]

So, it is good to get other staff perspectives on this in order to avoid prolonging this thread then? Sounds good to me.

Of course that's not a problem, but you're acting like this has been dragging on for ages when the thread has been up barely 6 days.

 

[Sword_guy_Z]

Of course that's not a problem, but you're acting like this has been dragging on for ages when the thread has been up barely 6 days.

Six days isn’t a long time to you? Nearly a week to interpret a single feat isn’t long to you? I’ve seen other threads like this. It will end up being prolonged for no reason. My suggestion was simply an alternative to that. If you all disagree then that’s that. If you all agree then problem solved.

 

[Damage3245]

Six days isn’t a long time to you? Nearly a week to interpret a single feat isn’t long to you? I’ve seen other threads like this. It will end up being prolonged for no reason. My suggestion was simply an alternative to that. If you all disagree then that’s that. If you all agree then problem solved.

Compared to some threads I've seen in the past, 6 days really isn't a long time for an in-depth discussion. That's all I'm saying.


I'll post more about the feat soon.

 

[SnookB]

Until that happens, is there anything else related to LS that needs discussion outside of Momo's feat?

 

[Damage3245]

Until that happens, is there anything else related to LS that needs discussion outside of Momo's feat?

Related to Lifting Strength?

 

[SnookB]

Related to Lifting Strength?

Yup. I recall there being talk about Kid's LS scaling to Linlin
And if she scales to Kaido who should scale over his clouds since he sustains them, then that'd be two other characters with class P (outside of Luffy who can carry his own Bajrang Gun)
If this isn't the thread for it we can always wait another one, but it seems easier to get other things out of the way while this is pending