One Piece: Wano Arc Part 2.5: AP and Lifting Revisions; The Shogun

[Damage3245]

And if she scales to Kaido who should scale over his clouds since he sustains them

I don't think Lifting Strength automatically scales like this.

Kaido can have a Lifting Strength rating for what he can lift with his flame clouds, but we have no reason to scale this to his physical lifting strength in human or dragon form.

 

[SnookB]

I don't think Lifting Strength automatically scales like this.

Kaido can have a Lifting Strength rating for what he can lift with his flame clouds, but we have no reason to scale this to his physical lifting strength in human or dragon form.

So basically Luffy's the only one who scales to class P physically.
Nobody scales to Bajrang Gun LS wise otherwise- guess there's nothing new to add then.

 

[KingTempest]

Kaidou scales above Momonosuke for being able to pull the island and those clouds. He scales. Let's not say he doesn't.

 

[Damage3245]

Kaidou scales above Momonosuke for being able to pull the island and those clouds. He scales. Let's not say he doesn't.

All I was addressing was the issue of Kaidou scaling directly to his own flame clouds.

 

[Eseseso]

Are we now getting closer to solving the issue of AP?

 

[Damage3245]

Are we now getting closer to solving the issue of AP?

We're a bit closer now.

From what I understand, the argument has shifted a bit from what it was originally described as in the OP. I'm working on an analysis.

 

[Eseseso]

I think this is the first time a massive verse wide upgrade has tired me out.

 

[Damage3245]

I think this is the first time a massive verse wide upgrade has tired me out.

To be fair, the verse-wide upgrades have been done. This is more of an extra upgrade that only affects a tiny amount of the verse.

 

[Eseseso]

To be fair, the verse-wide upgrades have been done. This is more of an extra upgrade that only affects a tiny amount of the verse.

Doesn't this affect a lot of the God Tiers tho?

 

[Damage3245]

Doesn't this affect a lot of the God Tiers tho?

Potentially, it might, yeah. Forgot about that.

 

[LordGinSama]

So like what's even going on at this point? Is the calculation fine or does it need to be adjusted?

 

[Damage3245]

So like what's even going on at this point? Is the calculation fine or does it need to be adjusted?

The calculation is mathematically correct; the issues are in the interpretation of the feat, the assumed values of the calculation and the proposed scaling involved.

My current perspective are that the feat didn't happen exactly how the calc proposes, and there are issues with applying this purely to Attack Potency. I'm working on an explanation so that we don't have too many back-and-forth posts like we did have earlier in the thread.

I'm grateful to people who have been patient so far. Personally I'd like it if Therefir was still present on the thread too to go over this with him but he's busy with exams currently.

 

[Eseseso]

Btw if the calc is accepted (which seems likelier as time passes), then Scabbard level people should backscale to Baseline 6-A+ (which is roughly 2.6 petatons IIRC).

 

[Romeu08]

Btw if the calc is accepted (which seems likelier as time passes), then Scabbard level people should backscale to Baseline 6-A+ (which is roughly 2.6 petatons IIRC).

5-c one piece is coming closer

 

[Damage3245]

Currently getting some advice on Lifting Strength / Attack Potency standards, as I'm doing my research. Won't be able to post until tomorrow so thanks again for your patience so far. At the moment I think there are too many issues that make the calc invalid for use in the AP scaling chain, but I'm happy to concede once we've had more discusson on them and if I'm wrong about them.

 

[Eseseso]

5-c one piece is coming closer

Well I found a way for earthquake calcs that put WB's Earthquake in single digits exatons but it was rejected for reasons I still disagree with.

Yes I'm bitter.

 

[SnookB]

So like what's even going on at this point? Is the calculation fine or does it need to be adjusted?

Calc is fine. The assumed speed of the island falling is what's causing issues. Even though nothing really contradicts it

 

[Damage3245]

Calc is fine. The assumed speed of the island falling is what's causing issues. Even though nothing really contradicts it

Just to clarify, it's not only the speed value of the island that is the issue. It's the interpretation of how the feat was accomplished, and to what degree it can be scaled to AP.

 

[Romeu08]

Well I found a way for earthquake calcs that put WB's Earthquake in single digits exatons but it was rejected for reasons I still disagree with.

Yes I'm bitter.

What we're the reasons? Maybe a Second attempt adressing these points would have a better chance

 

[Kachon123]

Well I found a way for earthquake calcs that put WB's Earthquake in single digits exatons but it was rejected for reasons I still disagree with.

Yes I'm bitter.

What we're the reasons? Maybe a Second attempt adressing these points would have a better chance

Don't derail.

 

[SnookB]

Just to clarify, it's not only the speed value of the island that is the issue. It's the interpretation of how the feat was accomplished, and to what degree it can be scaled to AP.

The different interpertation is a mix of how fast the feat was/if it scales physically. After all the only reason it's scaling to AP is the speed of it. At least going by the OP
Either way I look forward to seeing your explanation of your interpertation, at least so this doesn't drag out for longer than it has.

 

[KingTempest]

It's been a week and nothing has changed. Let's stop the "Drag out", cause it's already been ridiculously dragged out

 

[Damage3245]

It's been a week and nothing has changed. Let's stop the "Drag out", cause it's already been ridiculously dragged out

Therefir and I have both been debating against this calc. Therefir can't continue right now because he's busy, but I still have issues with it. I'm currently awaiting DontTalkDT to respond to me for some clarification which should help, but this thread isn't being dragged out.

If I had no issues with the calculation, I would just approve it and help pass the thread, but I do have issues with it. The thread still being open because a staff member or two has issues with it is not it being "dragged out".

If the thread were shut down right away without discussion, it also wouldn't be dragged out, but I wouldn't approve of that either.

KT, we've both been in some threads that have lasted months, so let's not act like this thread has been open unusually long. It's been almost a week and that's not ridiculously long at all.

Now, to clarify, I'm not advocating "Let's keep the thread open for months for the sake of it." That would be ridiculous. I want the thread open until DT can provide the clarification I've asked for, and hopefully either one of us will be able to change our minds and we come to consensus.

 

[Damage3245]

Also, you say nothing has changed, but I've addressed specific parts of the OP which are - as I view them - wrong and the OP remains the same.

For example:

Now on top of that, Momonosuke could directly counter the force of Kaidou's flame clouds moving a larger Onigashima. He moved it the other way He does it nigh instantaneously, which is why he only grunts for a small amount of time.

This isn't a feat of Momonosuke "nigh-instaneneously" pushing Onigashima back. This is a protracted pushing feat done over the span of several chapters / minutes. It isn't until several chapters after he starts doing this that Momonosuke notes that he is succeeding in slowly pushing Onigashima backwards.

So we can't say from this panel that he is succeeding in countering Onigashima's KE in just a single instant.

So this part of the OP at least is incorrect and should be crossed out.

 

[Damage3245]

DT has responded to me and shares some concerns with the calc. I've asked him to comment on the thread so the wait shouldn't be too much longer for extra staff input on this.


Are there any specific Lifting Strength changes proposed in this thread, or is it just for AP regarding the calc in the OP?

 

[DontTalkDT]

I will make my personal opinion short: I just don't buy the timeframe. The falling speed just isn't a very plausible one and to justify an assumed timeframe that implies that I personally need more than some lanterns and a shockwave.

 

[Damage3245]

Thanks for commenting.

 

[SnookB]

I personally need more than some lanterns and a shockwave.

There is more.
There's an extremely fast falling timeframe as well.
Kaido who fell at FTE then through tens of kilometers of ground in seconds. Kaido didn't take longer than 10 seconds to reach the magma chamber, yet the island was already safely down even before that. 10 seconds is the safer timeframe if you factor that in.

 

[Damage3245]

Kaido who fell at FTE then through tens of kilometers of ground in seconds. Kaido didn't take longer than 10 seconds to reach the magma chamber, yet the island was already safely down even before that. 10 seconds is the safer timeframe if you factor that in.

Kaido's speed once he's actually in the ground is unknown as falling through solid material would slow him down a lot more than falling through air.

 

[SnookB]

Kaido's speed once he's actually in the ground is unknown as falling through solid material would slow him down a lot more than falling through air.

It isn't. We have a clear angle of the distance he instantly travelled right after we see him hit the ground.

Compare his sillhouette's size to his closer actual body and that's how far he went in literally the same panel. The ground didn't slow him down. There's not even an indication of that.

Outside of flashback (which is simultaneous), he takes 3 more panels to break through what's more than 30 kilometers of ground and hits the magma chamber. The exaggerated speed lines are still there to show extremely fast movement as well. There's literally zero indication that he slowed down. Even the map that shows his hole and Big Mom's is drawn visually similiar, implying he obliterated the ground all the way down. If he slowed down (because he was detransforming mid-fall) his hole to the magma chamber would have gotten smaller to match his size change. Unless the consistent speed just doesn't allow it.

 

[Damage3245]

@SnookB; there are too many logical issues with Onigashima falling that quickly.

If the entire island had dropped like that - at way, way faster than terminal speeds - then everyone on the inside would have floated off the ground and most likely splattered against the ceiling.

It is extremely counter-intuitive that their aim the entire time has been to prevent Onigashima falling, yet the moment they have Onigashima under control they throw it to the ground far faster than it falling would have been and seemingly without generating any kind of shockwave or visual effect of high speed.

When the far more logical outcome would be that Momonosuke would have gradually lowered Onigashima to the ground in order to avoid that high-impact KE that they were trying to avoid in the first place.

This could also be a case of non-sequential panels going on here. Kaido could have ended up in the lava pool before Onigashima touched down on the ground and Oda just showed the events out of order so that he could show Onigashima touching down at the end of the previous chapter. That's entirely possible.

 

[SnookB]

If the entire island had dropped like that - at way, way faster than terminal speeds - then everyone on the inside would have floated off the ground and most likely splattered against the ceiling.

Even If the island fell in 5 minutes everyone would have still been splattered against the ceiling. That's the same argument with Jaya's citizens not turning to spaghetti from the knock up stream. Ignore "logic" because the author does.

It is extremely counter-intuitive that their arm the entire time has been to prevent Onigashima falling, yet the moment they have Onigashima under control they throw it to the ground far faster than it falling would have been and seemingly without generating any kind of shockwave or visual effect of high speed.

They didn't throw it. It fell. Momonosuke mitigated the fall with his clouds. The context of the plan has little relevance since the plan was failing from the start to begin with. The island descending doesn't even HAVE a regular SFX, it has "Zwoop" and "Fwoosh", both are SFXs used to show high speed in comics.

When the far more logical outcome would be that Momonosuke would have gradually lowered Onigashima to the ground in order to avoid that high-impact KE that they were trying to avoid in the first place.

He had very little choice. Between moving it out the way and having to hurriedly CATCH the already falling Onigashima, he wouldn't have stabilized it immidiately and it shows by the fact that his clouds only cushioned its landing in the last panel.

 

[Damage3245]

They didn't throw it. It fell. Momonosuke mitigated the fall with his clouds. The context of the plan has little relevance since the plan was failing from the start to begin with. The island descending doesn't even HAVE a regular SFX, it has "Zwoop" and "Fwoosh", both are SFXs used to show high speed in comics.

Is the argument now that it fell? The argument beforehand seemed to be that Momonosuke dragged it to the ground. Otherwise how could it fall much faster than it should naturally?

If the whole argument is just that Momonosuke mitigated the impact, then it doesn't seem like an AP feat to begin with and certainly not one that Momonosuke should be physically scaling to, if the Flame Clouds just acted like a cushion to catch the "falling" Onigashima.

 

[KingTempest]

@SnookB; there are too many logical issues with Onigashima falling that quickly.

If the entire island had dropped like that - at way, way faster than terminal speeds - then everyone on the inside would have floated off the ground and most likely splattered against the ceiling.

There was water in the building. This wouldn't happen.

It is extremely counter-intuitive that their aim the entire time has been to prevent Onigashima falling, yet the moment they have Onigashima under control they throw it to the ground far faster than it falling would have been and seemingly without generating any kind of shockwave or visual effect of high speed.

When the far more logical outcome would be that Momonosuke would have gradually lowered Onigashima to the ground in order to avoid that high-impact KE that they were trying to avoid in the first place.

This could also be a case of non-sequential panels going on here. Kaido could have ended up in the lava pool before Onigashima touched down on the ground and Oda just showed the events out of order so that he could show Onigashima touching down at the end of the previous chapter. That's entirely possible.

And Luffy was still in G5th.


It's like we gotta repeat the same arguments over and over.

 

[Damage3245]

There was water in the building. This wouldn't happen.

Fair.

And Luffy was still in G5th.
It's like we gotta repeat the same arguments over and over.

That's because I don't accept the G5th argument. Luffy simply just didn't undo his transformation straight away. He just de-transformed at some point during his fall but after Onigashima touched down.

 

[SnookB]

Is the argument now that it fell? The argument beforehand seemed to be that Momonosuke dragged it to the ground. Otherwise how could it fall much faster than it should naturally?

If the whole argument is just that Momonosuke mitigated the impact, then it doesn't seem like an AP feat to begin with and certainly not one that Momonosuke should be physically scaling to, if the Flame Clouds just acted like a cushion to catch the "falling" Onigashima.

That's only if you ignore the context of Momonosuke also dragging it in that short timeframe to behind the giant rocks near the capital. His clouds cushioned the fall. He dragged the island fast as hell.

 

[KingTempest]

That's because I don't accept the G5th argument. Luffy simply just didn't undo his transformation straight away. He just de-transformed at some point during his fall but after Onigashima touched down.

Luffy detransforms due to exhaustion, not "I'm done, time to detransform".

Luffy was clearly unconscious. Him not transforming back isn't a conscious choice. He would've turned back unconsciously

 

[SnookB]

That's because I don't accept the G5th argument. Luffy simply just didn't undo his transformation straight away. He just de-transformed at some point during his fall but after Onigashima touched down.

We never see him undo it yet. Luffy while still conscious still detransformed in seconds. An unconscious Luffy should detransform just as fast if not faster (since he isn't actively laughing or letting the drums play)

 

[StrawHatArslan]

wait quick question, sorry to go off topic, but who does this calc affect again? does this make people like kaido, zoro, yamato, and luffy high 6-a normally?

 

[KingTempest]

wait quick question, sorry to go off topic, but who does this calc affect again? does this make people like kaido, zoro, yamato, and luffy high 6-a normally?

makes a shit ton of god tiers 6-A