One Piece: Wano Arc Part 2.5: AP and Lifting Revisions; The Shogun

[SnookB]

Waiting for the anime is standard procedure, and One Piece is always airing, it's not gonna take long for it to reach this scene.

Considering we're entering a filler arc of at least a few episodes.. 1023 of the anime=1007 of manga..
Should be 36 episodes before we get Luffy's awakening-- so until March 2023. Count in 5/6 filler episodes and it's possibly up to next April. This feat won't be until.. June? Ish??
We waitin' a whole extra year boys

 

[Eseseso]

I'm with King on this, waiting for an entire year as Toei drags this out for greed is absurd.

 

[GroundX1]

I'm with King on this, waiting for an entire year as Toei drags this out for greed is absurd.

I agree, for me too, kaido and luffy's cloud feat shouldn't be so dragged either, the best at the moment would be ideal, after all we use the best consistency AT THE MOMENT

 

[DBZMLP12345]

I'll also side with King on this

 

[SnookB]

Before last year, "anime isn't canon. we can't use it for support. it varies too much. just wait until oda tackles it"
Now its "wait for anime".

Oh brother

When it's convenient, it's convenient.

We might as well start using the cinematic timing if the anime is that big of a game changer now. And if the anime is so important, then-

 

[Eseseso]

I agree, for me too, kaido and luffy's cloud feat shouldn't be so dragged either, the best at the moment would be ideal, after all we use the best consistency AT THE MOMENT

^^^^^^^^^

 

[Deceived3596]

The "wait for the anime" argument is such a ******* cop out its crazy.

 

[WrongIdea21]

Manga : Marco Dodge Queen's Beam
Anime : Suck aim Queen

Manga : Oden with Haki vs no Haki, No Df WB.
Anime : Oden ate Prime WB's Quake Punch

 

[Eseseso]

Anime: Smoker somewhat matches Doffy
Manga: Doffy ******* one-shots Smoker.

Anime: Queen slices a Bluebird from Marco in Base
Manga: Queen never hurts or matches Marco even in Zoan

And let's not forget the Dressrosa shockwave from Luffy's KKG in the anime that IIRC was calced in the teratons or something.

 

[Eseseso]

That said if we used that THICC anime timeframe for Roger and WB's clash splitting the clouds I wouldn't mind.

After all, don't we use anime timeframes?

 

[Romeu08]

The average episode would be 20 minutes long.

If this event was stretched to 20 minutes, this island would drop at
410825.38888889/(20x60) = 342.354490741 m/s

So it would literally fall at the speed of sound.

Causing the same exact issue of physics and this thing would drop with a large island level yield, killing everyone there again, destroying the ground, notifying everyone in wano that a big ass rock just fell.

Yeah this seals the deal, even at the best possible timeframe for survival they would die following irl logic

 

[Therefir]

Considering we're entering a filler arc of at least a few episodes.. 1023 of the anime=1007 of manga..
Should be 36 episodes before we get Luffy's awakening-- so until March 2023. Count in 5/6 filler episodes and it's possibly up to next April. This feat won't be until.. June? Ish??
We waitin' a whole extra year boys

Huh, yeah that's way too much time to feasible wait.

Okay then, waiting is not a good option, but I don't understand why use 10 seconds and not anything longer.

Momo moves the island > Luffy punches Kaido > He gets sent into the ground > Goes deeper into it > Has a flashback and goes even deeper > Onigashima is still far above the sky > More lanterns keep rising > Onigashima finally lands.

There is nothing supporting those 10 seconds more than Luffy's transformation (and as we saw in chapter 1045 he was losing his transformation through several panels and not instantaneously).

 

[KingTempest]

Huh, yeah that's way too much time to feasible wait.

Okay then, waiting is not a good option, but I don't understand why use 10 seconds and not anything longer.

Momo moves the island > Luffy punches Kaido > He gets sent into the ground > Goes deeper into it > Has a flashback and goes even deeper > Onigashima is still far above the sky > More lanterns keep rising > Onigashima finally lands.

You do know that like four of these events are happening at one time right?

There is nothing supporting those 10 seconds more than Luffy's transformation (and as we saw in chapter 1045 he was losing his transformation through several panels and not instantaneously).

This is just because it's showing each portion of the phase. It's not like each panel was 5 seconds.

 

[Therefir]

You do know that like four of these events are happening at one time right?

Uhh what? What makes you think all that happened at the same time? There's entire page of events between Momo moving the island, and this one actually landing.

10 seconds is completely exaggerated given how many things are happening in between these pages, which inflates the speed.

 

[WrongIdea21]

I'm neutral on momonosuke speed when he take the Island down to the land.
My focus is when someone said Momo move the island from this to this and this place is more than 1 second.

KT freefalling arguments makes alot of sense with buch of evidence.

 

[KingTempest]

Uhh what? What makes you think all that happened at the same time? There's entire page of events between Momo moving the island, and this one actually landing.

One entire page is Luffy punching Kaidou down at supersonic speeds. Like the 2nd to the last page is literally like... 2 seconds

Like you're acting as if that page where Luffy punched Kaidou took 20 seconds or something

10 seconds is completely exaggerated given how many things are happening in between these pages, which inflates the speed.

The flashback isn't incorporated into the timeframe.
There can be chapters full of flashbacks and nothing can be happening during those flashbacks.

The only thing relevant is Kaidou plummeting into the earth and the lanterns floating.

The lanterns flying can happen while Kaidou is falling and while Onigashima is falling. The lanterns have been flying for like 3 chapters now.

Literally the only 2 things that significantly impact the timeframe is
1. Kaidou falling
2. Luffy still falling prior to even going back to base

 

[Therefir]

Literally the only 2 things that significantly impact the timeframe is
1. Kaidou falling
2. Luffy still falling prior to even going back to base

3. And they showing us how the island is still far above the sky even after all that.
4. And the lanterns rising.

All this before the island actually reached the ground.

 

[KingTempest]

3. And they showing us how the island is still far above the sky even after all that.

yeah, and then the island is falling while those events are happening

You're treating it like it's chronological events. This happens, then this happens. This isn't how it works.
These are events happening at the same exact time.

 

[WrongIdea21]

Luffy on Procces of detransformation, Onigashima landing, Luffy still doesn't finished his detransformation

 

[Therefir]

yeah, and then the island is falling while those events are happening

You're treating it like it's chronological events. This happens, then this happens. This isn't how it works.
These are events happening at the same exact time.

I'm now even more confused by you saying the events are not presented chronologically, while at the same time using Luffy's detransformation to justify Onigashima landing quick.

Luffy on Procces of detransformation, Onigashima landing, Luffy still doesn't finished his detransformation

That thing doesn't even have Luffy's shape, it could be practically anything: vapor, dust, debris, wind, and it could even be Momo.

However, I won't be able to continue any further, I have college exams around the corner and having people wait about a week just because I don't agree with the calculation would be terrible.

No I just read the OP cause I had to leave for work

Okay, I will trust your judgement and let the thread continue normally.

I hope you guys don't destroy the scaling with this, see you later.

 

[WrongIdea21]

That thing doesn't even have Luffy's shape, it could be practically anything: vapor, dust, debris, wind, and it could even be Momo.

Can't you see the Bajrang gun is starting to shrink?
Momo's is white(pink) not black.
Momo is behind the skull instead of above Onigashima because he's pulling the flame cloud.
stop making up something.

 

[KingTempest]

I'm now even more confused by you saying the events are not presented chronologically, while at the same time using Luffy's detransformation to justify Onigashima landing quick.

Luffy's detransformation happened after Onigashima landed. Heck, it happened after the chapter was over.

Here's my point right. Let's get a page like this. These events, I'll call these Group B.

All these events are happening at the same time.
Something that happens before this page is this. I'll call this Group A.

Is this happening before the previous events? No. Because they've been fighting even before the supernova and yonko met.
After all of these events, we move onto this. I'll call it Group C.

So there is clear chronological order.

Supernova vs Yonko is happening at the same time as the SHs vs the Tobiroppo, which is happening at the same time as CP0 talking.

After those specific events, Kaidou transforms.

Group A and Group B happen at the same time, then Group C happens.

Now, substitute Group A for Kaidou plummeting, substitute group B for the lanterns floating and Onigashima falling, and substitute Group C for Luffy detransforming.

I hope you guys don't destroy the scaling with this, see you later.

gg

 

[Damage3245]

My primary dispute at the moment is the scaling involving Momonosuke.

I'll go back to the point that was raised in the previous page that "Momonosuke is pulling Onigashima upwards, so he scales to the Flame Clouds".

In this page, that does not seem to be what is happening. Momonosuke is not directed upwards and neither are the flame clouds. Here is another shot from a later chapter while Momonosuke is continuing to pull on the Flame Clouds and stop it from approaching the Flower Capitol. Another shot in Chapter 1041 and here in 1043.

It looks to me from all of those that Momonosuke is primarily pulling it horitontally.

Also, Momonosuke releases the flame clouds in chapter 1043; but Onogashima doesn't begin falling once he let go. So Momonosuke wasn't countering the energy of its falling here and was only working against the horizontal kinetic energy of the island.

I'm aware that this may sound like nitpicking, but it is important to be specific about this stuff so that we don't make a mistake when analyzing this.

 

[SnookB]

My primary dispute at the moment is the scaling involving Momonosuke.

I'll go back to the point that was raised in the previous page that "Momonosuke is pulling Onigashima upwards, so he scales to the Flame Clouds".

In this page, that does not seem to be what is happening. Momonosuke is not directed upwards and neither are the flame clouds. Here is another shot from a later chapter while Momonosuke is continuing to pull on the Flame Clouds and stop it from approaching the Flower Capitol. Another shot in Chapter 1041 and here in 1043.

It looks to me from all of those that Momonosuke is primarily pulling it horitontally.

Also, Momonosuke releases the flame clouds in chapter 1043; but Onogashima doesn't begin falling once he let go. So Momonosuke wasn't countering the energy of its falling here and was only working against the horizontal kinetic energy of the island.

I'm aware that this may sound like nitpicking, but it is important to be specific about this stuff so that we don't make a mistake when analyzing this.

He literally only countered its "fall" when Kaido's flames were out. Everything you sent is showing Momo pulling Kaido's own flames with greater force than what Kaido's directing them with, away from the capital, because up until Momo created his own flames, he was literally outputting greater physical force than Kaido's own clouds without creating his own.
When he created his own, he stopped Onigashima from falling, but that was only in 1049/1050

Momo basically won a tug of war vs Kaido's flames. That scales him above hem. There's no issue with his scaling if it's looked that from that angle.

 

[Damage3245]

@SnookB; I'm afraid that you're oversimplifying it. Momonosuke winning a tug of war against Kaido's flames is not a reason for him to scale above their full potency which is the whole point of my post up above.

 

[SnookB]

Momonosuke winning a tug of war against Kaido's flames is not a reason for him to scale above their full potency which is the whole point of my post up above.

It's.. Very blatantly showing that Momo even without flames can forcibly pull the island a different direction from what Kaido's clouds were going.
It's also supported by the fact that Momo at the end created flames far bigger than Kaido's as well when landing Onigashima.

Also, Momonosuke releases the flame clouds in chapter 1043; but Onogashima doesn't begin falling once he let go. So Momonosuke wasn't countering the energy of its falling here and was only working against the horizontal kinetic energy of the island.

And this. Momo let go while Kaido was conscious, his clouds were active and going for the capital. It wasn't going to FALL regardless because Kaido wanted to land it. It fell only when Kaido's clouds were out, and Momo's far bigger clouds took the brunt of that. Remember, Luffy didn't trust Momo to JUST hold the island, he said "MOVE IT" out of the way of his strike.
The island was directly under Kaido.

Flames go out
And Momo has to not only stop it from falling, but move it out of the way of Luffy's bajrang gun while at it.

Stopping and pulling a falling Onigashima is arguably a greater feat than just lifting a still one, even if the latter was a bit bigger.
And Momo's flames are considerably larger than Kaido's anyway, so scaling higher isn't far fetched.

<<<< Kaido's flames

<<<<< Momo's

A single momo flame cloud is like five times bigger than a single one of Kaido's own flame rings.

 

[Damage3245]

It's.. Very blatantly showing that Momo even without flames can forcibly pull the island a different direction from what Kaido's clouds were going.
It's also supported by the fact that Momo at the end created flames far bigger than Kaido's as well when landing Onigashima.

Yes, but scaling to that is different to scaling to the flame's full potency. What you'd have to do is find out how much energy was being put into moving Onigashima horizontally.

Momo let go while Kaido was conscious, his clouds were active and going for the capital. It wasn't going to FALL regardless because Kaido wanted to land it. It fell only when Kaido's clouds were out, and Momo's far bigger clouds took the brunt of that. Remember, Luffy didn't trust Momo to JUST hold the island, he said "MOVE IT" out of the way of his strike.

That's what I'm saying.

And Momo's flames are considerably larger than Kaido's anyway, so scaling higher isn't far fetched.
A single momo flame cloud is like five times bigger than a single one of Kaido's own flame rings.

But the OP is proposing that Kaido's flame clouds > Momo's flame clouds?

 

[SnookB]

I confused myself halfway through. That's what I get for multitasking

But the OP is proposing that Kaido's flame clouds > Momo's flame clouds?

Because Kaido's flame clouds lifted a heavier Onigashima in a short timeframe. Momo had to only soften its landing but couldn't actually carry it. Momonosuke physically counters Kaido's clouds' force while his own clouds can't output the same amount of energy required to hold the island up and still.
Momo's dragon form>his clouds for dragging a heavier Onigashima (since before King was destroying hills and the Big Mom nukes started going off). The reason his flames don't scale is because there's no telling whether they'd do the same with a full sized Onigashima, whereas Momo physically does.

Yes, but scaling to that is different to scaling to the flame's full potency. What you'd have to do is find out how much energy was being put into moving Onigashima horizontally.

As far as I remember, The island gets lower the closer it gets to the capital
But gets higher the further away it is

Either Momo pulling it back causes it to get lifted (he literally says he won't let it "fall" so his intent is to keep it higher anyway), or I'm missing something else- It's not like it's hardwired to float higher if it's further back, Kaido just intended for it to land over the center tree-castle structure

 

[LordGinSama]

For the record I agree with King's arguments after analyzing each argument from both sides. I've been following this thread since it was made and kept track of it thus far, and at the moment I think King's side of the arguments are more convincing.

 

[Eseseso]

I now side with Tempest even more than before due to his arguments.

 

[Damage3245]

As far as I remember, The island gets lower the closer it gets to the capital
But gets higher the further away it is
Either Momo pulling it back causes it to get lifted (he literally says he won't let it "fall" so his intent is to keep it higher anyway), or I'm missing something else- It's not like it's hardwired to float higher if it's further back, Kaido just intended for it to land over the center tree-castle structure

I don't think there's any indication that Momonosuke brought it back to a higher place.

 

[SnookB]

I don't think there's any indication that Momonosuke brought it back to a higher place.

If Momo is the one pulling it back
And if Momo says "I won't let it FALL", which it starts doing when it's closer to the capital so it can land
And the island goes HIGHER the further Momonosuke pulls it-- yet lower when Kaido's clouds force it back towards the capital. There's every indication that Momo is physically dragging Kaido's clouds and the island higher and further from the capital.

I'll try and grab every panel of Onigashima compared to wano's surface/the capital later today. Life of a busy bee atm

 

[WrongIdea21]

Idk if this scan is relevant, but Kaido's flame cloud tilts upwards when pulled by Momo.

 

[Damage3245]

If Momo is the one pulling it back
And if Momo says "I won't let it FALL", which it starts doing when it's closer to the capital so it can land
And the island goes HIGHER the further Momonosuke pulls it-- yet lower when Kaido's clouds force it back towards the capital. There's every indication that Momo is physically dragging Kaido's clouds and the island higher and further from the capital.

I'll try and grab every panel of Onigashima compared to wano's surface/the capital later today. Life of a busy bee atm

Momo is pulling it back but not up.

He's not letting it fall in the sense that he doesn't let it approach the capital where Kaido intendeds to drop it.

I don't think that the island does go higher when Momonosuke pulls it. He even says that he can't do that.

 

[SnookB]

Momo is pulling it back but not up.

He's not letting it fall in the sense that he doesn't let it approach the capital where Kaido intendeds to drop it.

I don't think that the island does go higher when Momonosuke pulls it. He even says that he can't do that.

Momo starts pulling it away

When Big Mom is falling you can literally see him yanking the cloud upwards

Afterwards he's holding TWO cloud rings, and one is pulled upwards as well.

Momo is literally pulling it at a higher angle while going away from the capital.

 

[Damage3245]

And in the majority of those shots, Momo is pulling it horizontally. And this is ignoring the the island isn't falling once he lets go of it.

 

[SnookB]

And in the majority of those shots, Momo is pulling it horizontally. And this is ignoring the the island isn't falling once he lets go of it.

We still have two shots consistently one after another while he's dragging the island away from the capital where he's going upwards. It doesn't matter if he took it higher for a minute then went in an horizental path, he still lifted it higher regardless.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll try to summarize my arguments tomorrow, as I'll be away from the forum for the next few hours.

 

[Sword_guy_Z]

These threads always take such a long time…

 

[SnookB]

These threads always take such a long time…

Damage still got arguments so idk-