One Piece: Wano Arc Part 2.5: AP and Lifting Revisions; The Shogun

[Eseseso]

makes a shit ton of god tiers 6-A

It'd make the A-6 people all High 6-A (which makes it useful for One Piece vs Fairy Tail fights), and it'd make the Scabbard lvl people backscale to Baseline 6-A+ (aka 2.5975 petatons).

 

[DBZMLP12345]

I always had One Piece God Tiers at High 6-A for a while, so i obviously side with Tempest and the others lol

 

[Damage3245]

I always had One Piece God Tiers at High 6-A for a while, so i obviously side with Tempest and the others lol

You shouldn't base your judgements on pre-existing biases.

 

[DontTalkDT]

It isn't. We have a clear angle of the distance he instantly travelled right after we see him hit the ground.

Compare his sillhouette's size to his closer actual body and that's how far he went in literally the same panel. The ground didn't slow him down. There's not even an indication of that.

Outside of flashback (which is simultaneous), he takes 3 more panels to break through what's more than 30 kilometers of ground and hits the magma chamber. The exaggerated speed lines are still there to show extremely fast movement as well. There's literally zero indication that he slowed down. Even the map that shows his hole and Big Mom's is drawn visually similiar, implying he obliterated the ground all the way down. If he slowed down (because he was detransforming mid-fall) his hole to the magma chamber would have gotten smaller to match his size change. Unless the consistent speed just doesn't allow it.

That just sounds like justifying that one assumed timeframe is short by assuming that another timeframe is short.

Like, numbers of panels mean nothing for timeframes and speed lines can easily be drawn for terminal velocity falling.
And air resistance is generally a thing.

 

[KingTempest]

That just sounds like justifying that one assumed timeframe is short by assuming that another timeframe is short.

Like, numbers of panels mean nothing for timeframes and speed lines can easily be drawn for terminal velocity falling.
And air resistance is generally a thing.

The island dropped before a dude could finish a quick transformation.
The island dropped before floating lanterns in a windy country could cover any significant distance.
The island dropped before the shockwave from a previous attack could finish dispersing.

Quick events that happened prior to the start of the drop finished well after the drop ended.

 

[Damage3245]

The island dropped before a dude could finish a quick transformation.

It's not confirmed that he started de-transforming right away.

The island dropped before floating lanterns in a windy country could cover any significant distance.

We have no confirmed distances / speeds to work with for those lanterns.

The island dropped before the shockwave from a previous attack could finish dispersing.

Where's the shockwave from the previous attack?

 

[KingTempest]

It's not confirmed that he started de-transforming right away.

We have tackled this several times.
Logically after using his strongest attack and being unconscious, he would transform back

We have no confirmed distances / speeds to work with for those lanterns.

Wind speed
Calc a height for the highest lantern
See a difference

Where's the shockwave from the previous attack?

On the next chapter when Yamato catches Luffy

 

[Damage3245]

Logically after using his strongest attack and being unconscious, he would transform back

I agree that he would; but that's not a timeframe. If it was instantaneous, then he would have transformed back before these "10 seconds" it took Onigashima to reach the ground. Since he could last that long though, there's nothing saying he couldn't last longer too.

Wind speed
Calc a height for the highest lantern
See a difference

I'm not sure it could feasibly be done without a lot of extra assumptions.

On the next chapter when Yamato catches Luffy

That doesn't really look like the shockwave of the Bajrang Punch to me. Looks like it is coming off of Luffy's fall.

 

[Sword_guy_Z]

Lol I honestly do not see an end to this in sight. It seems like a back and forth of the same points.

 

[Damage3245]

At its core, this calc doesn't apply to the character's ratings which is a problem to consider even apart from the assumed timeframe / mechanism of the feat.

This isn't a feat for Momonosuke's striking strength. It isn't a feat for his durability. It isn't a feat for his physical lifting strength. He didn't use physical strength or AP to stop Onigashima. It doesn't apply to Kaido either as his feats for lifting & moving Onigashima can all be calced.

The flame clouds "mitigating the fall" is not an attack and can't be scaled directly to Momonosuke or the other God-Tiers.

 

[SnookB]

Lanterns that went nearly twice as high as the height of the capital didn't even travel half that distance while the island was landing.
Island falls/momo creates clouds right as the larger amount of lanters is being releaed

While it's falling (meaning basically right after the clouds were created and Kaido was sent flying) the highest visible lantern isn't even twice as high a the height of the mountain the capital is on. If you wanna argue the timeframe of Luffy's fist decompression and Momo creating the clouds while the island is descending is minutes, then you're genuinely lying. Those lanterns reached that high in seconds.

Highest visible lantern is now little over twice as high as the capital, yet the island is already down on the ground.

Fine. Kaido's flashback makes the fall timeframe questionable. The island alone is questionable. Now you have REAL TIME lanterns reaching the air at insane speeds and the island still fell faster. Next we see them, which is occuring SIMULTANEOUSLY with Yamato catching Luffy because the narration box literally says "MEANWHILE"
They're high as hell even compared to Onigashima.

Those things went three times as high as the capital basically just as fast as Kaido went down. They didn't take longer than thirty seconds at MOST to reach twice the height of the capital and even then the island was comfortably down before them.

This isn't a feat for Momonosuke's striking strength. It isn't a feat for his durability. It isn't a feat for his physical lifting strength.

So we're gonna pretend Momonosuke pulling the island WITH HIS ARMS so fast that rocks from it fell horizentally didn't happen?

 

[SnookB]

At this point we're going in such a small circle of the same arguments that it feels like stonewalling

 

[Damage3245]

So we're gonna pretend Momonosuke pulling the island WITH HIS ARMS so fast that rocks from it fell horizentally didn't happen?

That's not what the calc is for though.

Island falls/momo creates clouds right as the larger amount of lanters is being releaed

There were lanterns that were released before then.

 

[SnookB]

That's not what the calc is for though.

KT's whole argument has BEEN that Momonosuke physically moved and landed it. And he did.
The island went from:
Being BEHIND the front gate of the capital and so far from the giant rocks/Stairs

To
Being INFRONT of the giant rocks, NEXT to the stairs, facing the same direction a the stairs and the giant tree castle (whereas before it was facing a different direction altogether)

ALL OF THAT happened during the "fall" of the island, thank to Momonosuke pulling the clouds with his arms to redirect the island from the initial capital direction that it was facing just the first panel sent above.
It scales to him physically. He literally pulled it from behind the capital to right next to the stairs in the short seconds that it was falling for.

 

[Damage3245]

@SnookB; it's not confirmed that Momonosuke moved it to the ground using physical strength alone when he has his own flame clouds around it controlling it.

There is no implication that there is some unknown skill barrier that Momonosuke has yet to reach in order to move Onigashima using his created flame clouds.

Since he has his flame clouds around it to control it, then it isn't a feat that Momonosuke scales to using physicals alone.

 

[Eseseso]

At its core, this calc doesn't apply to the character's ratings which is a problem to consider even apart from the assumed timeframe / mechanism of the feat.

Well Kingtempest said in the OP that it does for reasons, and if it scales to Yamato and Akainu and Kaido and the other God Tiers for the reasons he stated, then all the God Tiers get buffed

 

[SnookB]

@SnookB; it's not confirmed that Momonosuke moved it to the ground using physical strength alone when he has his own flame clouds around it controlling it.

There is no implication that there is some unknown skill barrier that Momonosuke has yet to reach in order to move Onigashima using his created flame clouds.

Since he has his flame clouds around it to control it, then it isn't a feat that Momonosuke scales to using physicals alone.

It's the absolute opposite. It's not confirmed he used anything BUT physical strength to do it.
A: He can't control his clouds
B: He literally doesn't know how to create them, let alone use them to levitate other things
C: He's quite literally pulling with his entire body

The only headcanon is assuming he CAN use telekinesis like Kaido when he literally didn't mention it, nor was it in canon hinted at. It's consistent with every other instance of him pulling the island via physical might. The only difference between him struggling to drag it with Kaido's clouds and his own is

Kaido's clouds were ACTIVELY countering his own force, slowing him down
His own clouds weren't.

When Kaido's using telekinesis he just STANDS THERE and lets it work. Momo is struggling physically to pull Onigashima while using the clouds as a giant harness.

 

[Damage3245]

A: He can't control his clouds

How do you know that?

B: He literally doesn't know how to create them, let alone use them to levitate other things

He did end up creating a huge amount of them. And he could create them before but smaller; he uses them to fly around with in his dragon form.

C: He's quite literally pulling with his entire body

There's no reason it can't be both.

The only headcanon is assuming he CAN use telekinesis like Kaido when he literally didn't mention it, nor was it in canon hinted at. It's consistent with every other instance of him pulling the island via physical might. The only difference between him struggling to drag it with Kaido's clouds and his own is

Why would he need to mention it?

Where does he say he can't move Onigashima with them?

And he only pulled the island before with physical might because he couldn't create his own clouds in sufficient size.

Well Kingtempest said in the OP that it does for reasons, and if it scales to Yamato and Akainu and Kaido and the other God Tiers for the reasons he stated, then all the God Tiers get buffed

I know. I don't think those reasons are sufficient.

 

[SnookB]

How do you know that?

Because every. single. Instance we've seen prior is him using physical strength. Including the single instance AFTER he creates them. You're riding on massive headcanon if you say he's doing anything but physical effort when the panel itself shows you he isn't.

He did end up creating a huge amount of them. And he could create them before but smaller; he uses them to fly around with in his dragon form.

He ended up creating one gigantic one (unlike Kaido's smaller ones) that required him to pull with his own arms to even move the island.

There's no reason it can't be both.

There is no reason it CAN be both. If he was using telekinesis like Kaido it would have been at least cleared up. This goes hand in hand with him pulling it every single time with his body.

Why would he need to mention it?

Where does he say he can't move Onigashima with them?

And he only pulled the island before with physical might because he couldn't create his own clouds in sufficient size.

Because going from "I can't create clouds" to "I can suddenly not only do it but also use telekinesis better than Kaido" is a massive step that contradicts his need for PHYSICAL EFFORT unlike Kaido.

We've reached a point where you're the one arguing with headcanon. If it isn't seen, it isn't there. This is how you yourself disagree with other calcs like Fujitora's Green Bit meteorite. Or the Kabutowari. "How do you know that's the meteorite and not the explosion?" "How do you know that island is in the calm belt when it isn't told to us?"
How do you know Momonosuke is using telekinesis when it isn't mentioned and the direct contradicting evidence of him using physical effort is there.

If it ain't there, then it ain't there.
There's no reason to create a new narrative altogether and deny what's basically presented on the pages over headcanon.

 

[Damage3245]

Because every. single. Instance we've seen prior is him using physical strength. Including the single instance AFTER he creates them. You're riding on massive headcanon if you say he's doing anything but physical effort when the panel itself shows you he isn't.

I explained why we saw him do it that way in the previous instances.

He ended up creating one gigantic one (unlike Kaido's smaller ones) that required him to pull with his own arms to even move the island.
There is no reason it CAN be both. If he was using telekinesis like Kaido it would have been at least cleared up. This goes hand in hand with him pulling it every single time with his body.

The fact that ambigious scenarios can happen at all in series means that sometimes not everything is cleared up.

Hence why there was the suggestion to wait and see if we get more information.

Because going from "I can't create clouds" to "I can suddenly not only do it but also use telekinesis better than Kaido" is a massive step that contradicts his need for PHYSICAL EFFORT unlike Kaido.

Are you ignoring why he was using physical effort beforehand?

We've reached a point where you're the one arguing with headcanon. If it isn't seen, it isn't there. This is how you yourself disagree with other calcs like Fujitora's Green Bit meteorite. Or the Kabutowari. "How do you know that's the meteorite and not the explosion?" "How do you know that island is in the calm belt when it isn't told to us?"
How do you know Momonosuke is using telekinesis when it isn't mentioned and the direct contradicting evidence of him using physical effort is there.

I'm arguing that your contradicting evidence isn't as contradicting as you think it is.

There's no reason to create a new narrative altogether and deny what's basically presented on the pages over headcanon.

I'm not creating a new narrative; I'm arguing that your narrative isn't the only way that it had to happen.

 

[SnookB]

Are you ignoring why he was using physical effort beforehand?

I'm not. But I'm also not ignoring the consistency of the character's actions and assuming a whole new thing altogether.

I'm arguing that your contradicting evidence isn't as contradicting as you think it is.

It is contradicting if he's shown using physical effort and isn't told to us that he's doing anything else. It's an assumption to say he's doing otherwise. Plain and simple.

I'm not creating a new narrative; I'm arguing that your narrative isn't the only way that it had to happen.

And I'm arguing your narrative is literally not being shown. You're suggesting it even though it isn't hinted at, it isn't written, it isn't proven, and it's directly contradicted by the show of physical effort that another user of the same ability doesn't display for it to even be consistent.

This was fine when we argued what's being shown, but now you're just making a thing up and trying to pass it off as "it could be there" when what's being SHOWN proves it isn't.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not. But I'm also not ignoring the consistency of the character's actions and assuming a whole new thing altogether.

Since the circumstances are different (Momonosuke creates flame clouds that should be under his control unlike Kaido's), then the issue of consistency in his actions isn't really relevant.

It is contradicting if he's shown using physical effort and isn't told to us that he's doing anything else. It's an assumption to say he's doing otherwise. Plain and simple.

Sometimes not everything is told to us.

And I'm arguing your narrative is literally not being shown. You're suggesting it even though it isn't hinted at, it isn't written, it isn't proven, and it's directly contradicted by the show of physical effort that another user of the same ability doesn't display for it to even be consistent.
This was fine when we argued what's being shown, but now you're just making a thing up and trying to pass it off as "it could be there" when what's being SHOWN proves it isn't.

The issue is that when it comes to Onigashima being lowered to the ground, it isn't shown that he's using only physical strength to do it. You're pointing out instances of him using physical strength elsewhere and ignoring that these are other instances which doesn't necessarily apply to the feat that we're actually discussing.

 

[SnookB]

Sometimes not everything is told to us.

Right. And if it isn't told, then we don't use it. You shot down calcs that have more than enough evidence just because "not everything is told to us". You're changing your base of argument only when it's convenient to your narrative and it's getting frustrating.

The issue is that when it comes to Onigashima being lowered to the ground, it isn't shown that he's using only physical strength to do it. You're pointing out instances of him using physical strength elsewhere and ignoring that these are other instances which doesn't necessarily apply to the feat that we're actually discussing.

And you're ignoring the fact that what's shown is him using physical strength and arguing a hypothetical that goes against his character altogether.
He's inexperienced. We weren't told he's good with the clouds. We're showing him using physical strength from the first time he tried controlling Kaido's clouds to his own.
Stop arguing something that doesn't exist. At this point you're basically refusing to concede based on a headcanon that you alone created and nobody else.

Since the circumstances are different (Momonosuke creates flame clouds that should be under his control unlike Kaido's), then the issue of consistency in his actions isn't really relevant.

1040 has him pulling them. 1049 has him pulling them all the same.

Consistency isn't an "issue". You're the one making it an issue by giving out an "if" that isn't even hinted at in canon. He's shown pulling his clouds physically all the same like when he does with Kaido's.

 

[SnookB]

The only difference between pulling Kaido's clouds and his own is the speed, and that's only because Kaido's clouds were actively going against his effort, while his were not. That's basically the only safe assumption and it's that his clouds aren't going to try and fight back against him since they aren't being controlled by Kaido and making his physical pull slower.
Anything else is pure headcanon.
This started off alright then delved into headcanon territory and stonewalling like hell. Just bring knowledgeable staff into this so they decide whether or not the clouds should be assumed to have unshown, untold telekinesis or if it looks like Momo's just pulling the island.

 

[Damage3245]

Right. And if it isn't told, then we don't use it. You shot down calcs that have more than enough evidence just because "not everything is told to us". You're changing your base of argument only when it's convenient to your narrative and it's getting frustrating.

By the same logic it isn't told or shown to us that Momonosuke dragged Onigashima down to the ground with physical strength so we shouldn't use that.

And you're ignoring the fact that what's shown is him using physical strength and arguing a hypothetical that goes against his character altogether.
He's inexperienced. We weren't told he's good with the clouds. We're showing him using physical strength from the first time he tried controlling Kaido's clouds to his own.
Stop arguing something that doesn't exist. At this point you're basically refusing to concede based on a headcanon that you alone created and nobody else.

I can't agree that it "goes against his character altogether". That's a matter of your interpretation. We're not told "The only in-character action Momonosuke can take is to pull on his own clouds without even attempting to move them using his ability."

1040 has him pulling them. 1049 has him pulling them all the same.

That doesn't prove that Momonosuke is only using physical strength which is the issue. He had to use physical strength beforehand because it was impossible for him to control the other clouds. That is not the case with his own clouds.

This started off alright then delved into headcanon territory and stonewalling like hell. Just bring knowledgeable staff into this so they decide whether or not the clouds should be assumed to have unshown, untold telekinesis or if it looks like Momo's just pulling the island.

It's not stonewalling to disagree with a calc.

 

[Romeu08]

King tempest and Snook argument makes sense
Momo after creating his clouds was still having to use physical effort to act on onigashima, he or yamato would have noted had he been able to control the clouds with telekinesis
So overall its safer to assume he lacks the capacity for telekinesis yet

 

[SnookB]

By the same logic it isn't told or shown to us that Momonosuke dragged Onigashima down to the ground with physical strength so we shouldn't use that.

is shown literally dragging the island with the clouds as a harness
"we don't know if he's using physical strength"

Are you actually looking at the same panels? He yanked it out so fast that in seconds it was entirely away from under Kaido and the Bajrang Gun. Unless he let it go and let it fall (which would then cause the bombs to detonate) then he had no other option but to drag it all the way. We even see it in an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT AREA from where it was initially over.

It went from being BEHIND THE CAPITAL to NEXT TO THE STAIRS.

If he let it go and let his clouds just soften its descent, it would have went STRAIGHT DOWN and nowhere near where it ended. Momo pulled it the whole way, and literally in exhaustion afterwards. If he just allowed the clouds to do it he wouldn't be half as tired as he was.

I can't agree that it "goes against his character altogether". That's a matter of your interpretation. We're not told "The only in-character action Momonosuke can take is to pull on his own clouds without even attempting to move them using his ability."

An ability he doesn't even know he can use. The dude can't even use blast breath, or control the weather like Kaido, or anything outside of clouds he knows how to STEP ON to fly instead of being CARRIED like Kaido.

He had to use physical strength beforehand because it was impossible for him to control the other clouds. That is not the case with his own clouds.

There's no proof he can CONTROL HIS CLOUDS to begin with. He struggles to even create them. That's such a massive assumption even consider and goes against what's being shown entirely.

 

[Damage3245]

King tempest and Snook argument makes sense
Momo after creating his clouds was still having to use physical effort to act on onigashima, he or yamato would have noted had he been able to control the clouds with telekinesis
So overall its safer to assume he lacks the capacity for telekinesis yet

Why would they note that?

 

[SnookB]

Why would they note that?

Why would they not? Why would they show him using physical effort to do the feat? Why would he have to actively GRAB AND PULL the clouds?

 

[Damage3245]

Why would they not? Why would they show him using physical effort to do the feat? Why would he have to actively GRAB AND PULL the clouds?

The feat we're talking about is him supposedly dragging Onigashima down to the ground from its place 410 km up in the sky. The issue is that Momonosuke during that feat is off-screen. We can't see him physically dragging it down there; and him moving the flame clouds doesn't have any kind of visual effect to it either, making it doubly hard to detirmine if he was moving it using physicals alone, or moving it using physicals + moving the flame clouds like Kaido.

There is no implication that he doesn't have the ability to move his own flame clouds.

 

[SnookB]

There is no implication that he doesn't have the ability to move his own flame clouds.

And there is zero implication that he DOES. There's more evidence that he's using physical strength than not, so we can't assume something that DOESNT EXIST over something that has proof behind it. THIS

Is physical effort, not telekinesis. Telekinesis is standing there and not showing any signs of tiredness while lifting a far, far heavier Onigashima using the EXACT SAME ABILITY.

The issue is that Momonosuke during that feat is off-screen.

So what you're saying is, even though the feat starts off and CONTINUES to be shown to be physical basically both from the start of and at the VERY END of the double spread page, Momonosuke could have let go of the clouds, discovered telekinesis, floated the island down and then decided to dramatically fall down due to exhaustion even though he stopped tiring himself out halfway through it?
You're saying the feat SHOWN to start off physically should be assumed to have become non-physical just because Momonosuke is obscured by the island? That sounds like the most ridiculous mental gymnastics ever.

 

[SnookB]

It's not confirmed that he started de-transforming right away.



We have no confirmed distances / speeds to work with for those lanterns.



Where's the shockwave from the previous attack?

Damage, your "it's not confirmed" logic works on your own argument.
It's not confirmed he's using telekinesis. Just drop it. "It's not confirmed" only seems to be used when it's convenient for you.

 

[Damage3245]

Damage, your "it's not confirmed" logic works on your own argument.
It's not confirmed he's using telekinesis. Just drop it. "It's not confirmed" only seems to be used when it's convenient for you.

That's why I'm not arguing it be solely applied to the flames either.

 

[SnookB]

That's why I'm not arguing it be solely applied to the flames either.

You're trying to entirely erase the fact that it's physical effort on Momonosuke's part with an unconfirmed telekinesis ability that we don't hear him say he has, have mention of him having it, seeing anyone else (primarily Yamato who's FAMILIAR with the ability) mention him using it or anything alike.
It's as physical as the feat can get. The clouds only played a part at the very end to soften Onigashima's contact with the ground of wano.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

(which makes it useful for One Piece vs Fairy Tail fights)

Cursed

 

[Eseseso]

Cursed

Cope and seethe

 

[Damage3245]

@SnookB; I want to have a quick topic on the consistency of this to hopefully make it clear to you why I don't fully buy that. Now, first off so that we're on the same page, do you think we can use this page to figure out how far away Onigashima is from the Flower Capital?

 

[Romeu08]

Why would they note that?

Momo use of his fruit was so pathetic that any advancements was always highlighted and shown
This has been consistent since we saw him until the end
Also him carrying wano is symbolism with his father, both carried "wano" in their own ways with the pain and weight of their decisions
So it would be ooc for Oda to make momonosuke struggle anything but physical and that is what is shown in every page

 

[KingTempest]

I agree that he would; but that's not a timeframe. If it was instantaneous, then he would have transformed back before these "10 seconds" it took Onigashima to reach the ground. Since he could last that long though, there's nothing saying he couldn't last longer too.

Your implication is "it's long".

I'm not sure it could feasibly be done without a lot of extra assumptions.

There's like 1 assumption. Wind speed

That doesn't really look like the shockwave of the Bajrang Punch to me. Looks like it is coming off of Luffy's fall.

you're implying it's a sonic boom, when literally every single one Oda draws, it doesn't look like that

 

[Sword_guy_Z]

Didn’t we see Momo physically collapse in exhaustion after Onigashima was on the ground? Doesn’t that imply, if not downright reveal, that it was a physical feat?