One Piece: Wano Arc Part 2.5: AP and Lifting Revisions; The Shogun

[Nierre]

man this is confusing to follow

 

[SnookB]

man this is confusing to follow

To summarize it:
Onigashima fell very fast but Momo mitigated the fall

Fast enough to fall before Luffy hit the ground from the sky
Fast enough that it was comfortably down, Yamato wentt out and caught Luffy a distance away
Fast enough that it was down before Kaido went through wano's crust and into the magma chamber even though he got hit so hard he moved FTE
Momo slowed its fall and cushioned the landing with his massive cloud to where it landed safely despite its speed

The argument against it are:

It couldn't have moved that fast because everyone would've died inside. But even if it took minutes everyone still would've died inside anyway so physics aren't a point of contradiction.
Momonosuke shouldn't scale for softening the fall. Even though we know Onigashima would've exploded if it landed in any manner that wouldn't involve its impact being lessened (due to some of the bombs and all staying in the armory and Yamato/momo believing it'd detonate if it fell.)

 

[Eseseso]

So...are we getting close to a verdict?

 

[KingTempest]

verdicts don't exist. we need concessions

 

[Romeu08]

Garou adapts

 

[Sword_guy_Z]

verdicts don't exist. we need concessions

What if a concession doesn’t happen? Does it just remain in a deadlock?

 

[KingTempest]

What if a concession doesn’t happen? Does it just remain in a deadlock?

i guess unless more staff come in and give opinions

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

i guess unless more staff come in and give opinions

Time to ping the rest of staffs?

 

[KingTempest]

Time to ping the rest of staffs?

don't go and ping every damn staff on earth, just the knowledgeable and/or willing to read ones

 

[Eseseso]

Can we just do the part 3 of the Wano revisions until this deadlock is broken?

 

[KingTempest]

Can we just do the part 3 of the Wano revisions until this deadlock is broken?

part 3 is just who scales to who. their values are all the same except like 3 people

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I just want Yamato profile already lel

 

[Eseseso]

I just want Yamato profile already lel

Plus the 5 dozen other profiles we need to make, even for movie characters

 

[KingTempest]

bro there's like 6 profiles in total which have 4 tobiroppo yamato hyo

 

[Eseseso]

bro there's like 6 profiles in total which have 4 tobiroppo yamato hyo

Didn't you once say in Wano Kuni you have a lot of OP profiles you want to make?

Also, don't forget Dice from OP: Gold, dude was matching and pushing back post-Dressrosa Santoryu Zoro and Zoro needed to use Goken to take him down.

 

[KingTempest]

Didn't you once say in Wano Kuni you have a lot of OP profiles you want to make?

yeah. those 6

Also, don't forget Dice from OP: Gold, dude was matching and pushing back post-Dressrosa Santoryu Zoro and Zoro needed to use Goken to take him down.

we don't need him

 

[Eseseso]

we don't need him

Yes we do you kink-shamer

 

[Damage3245]

I'll post my arguments soon to explain my issues with the OP concisely, but just to address SnookB's latest post up above:

Fast enough to fall before Luffy hit the ground from the sky
Fast enough that it was comfortably down, Yamato wentt out and caught Luffy a distance away

These do not require an extremely fast timeframe for Onigashima. Luffy was much higher up in the sky than Onigashima itself, and the speed of his falling from the sky would be nowhere near tens of kilometers per second.

So even if Onigashima took much longer than 10 seconds to fall, it still should have landed long before Luffy could hit the ground/be caught by Yamato.

Fast enough that it was down before Kaido went through wano's crust and into the magma chamber even though he got hit so hard he moved FTE

He moving FTE in the air, but there's no knowing for sure how fast he was moving through Wano's crust / how far he had to go.

Momo slowed its fall and cushioned the landing with his massive cloud to where it landed safely despite its speed

Part of the issue is assuming that Momonosuke only slowed its fall down at the last second, and that he was accelerating it towards the ground before then.

 

[Damage3245]

Now, to go through the points of the OP that I have issue with in this being as simple as "Scale the calc to Momonosuke's physical AP.":

Momonosuke's flame clouds are drastically inferior to Kaidou's flame clouds, as Kaidou could lift and move a larger and heavier Onigashima for an hour while Momonosuke couldn't handle Onigashima for a single minute.

This seems more like a stamina point than an AP difference. Kaidou lifting and moving the larger Onigashima would require less energy than this calc requires to counteract a 41 km/s fall from Onigashima.

Kaidou could sustain his own feat for longer, but Momonosuke's flame clouds appeared much larger than Kaidou's when he finally created them and moved Onigashima out of the way of Luffy's punch and guided it to down to the surface. So his feat here was likely more powerful if he was using even more flames than Kaidou to accomplish it.

Now on top of that, Momonosuke could directly counter the force of Kaidou's flame clouds moving a larger Onigashima. He moved it the other way He does it nigh instantaneously, which is why he only grunts for a small amount of time.

This is disputable. Momonosuke did not "instantaneously" move Onigashima back a certain distance. He was working against the force of Onigashima's movement for several chapters in a row, and we don't have a clear picture of the effectiveness of his attempts.

Did he slow it down? Bring it to a dead stop? Push it back the other way? It's not 100% clear, but it seems to me that the most he accomplished it was holding it still - a feat that would require him only to counteract the force Kaidou was using to move it closer to the Flower Capital and not an amount of energy comparable to stopping its 41 km/s fall.

Either way, since this took place over over several chapters of Momonosuke pushing on the flame clouds, this is not an instantaneous AP feat for his striking strength.

So neither Momonosuke, Kaidou or Yamato should be scaling to this calc even if we accepted it. The scaling chain is not as simple as what is posted in the OP when we look at the specifics of how the energy of each feat is involved.

 

[SnookB]

This is disputable. Momonosuke did not "instantaneously" move Onigashima back a certain distance. He was working against the force of Onigashima's movement for several chapters in a row, and we don't have a clear picture of the effectiveness of his attempts.

You can literally see the clouds continuing forward while Onigashima itself doesn't. That means there had to be a complete halt or at the very least a very sudden slowing.

We do see him do something similiar with his flame clouds too, albeit with a lighter Onigashima
Onigashima went from being right under Kaido to being on he side in moments during the clash. You gotta realize too, that this isn't a "short" distance by any means. It got pulled far enough to where Luffy's fist is tens of kilometers wide and so is Kaido's flaming dragon body. And Onigashima was out of their way in moments.

Either way, since this took place over over several chapters of Momonosuke pushing on the flame clouds, this is not an instantaneous AP feat for his striking strength.

Yes, but during those chapters (which occured in minutes anyway since the whole reason behind the rush was a 5 minutes thing) we see Momo pull it back further than it was before. If Onigashima was as close as it was before Momo started pulling it, Shock Wille wouldn't have been as far away as it was from the capital. We see it above the larger rocks near the capital in 1034, and far closer:

Then 1039 Momo said it's moving back (and it's already a distance back), then Puncture Wille's shot gives us a clearer, comparable look to 1034's:

Not only is it further, it's HIGHER than before.

He moving FTE in the air, but there's no knowing for sure how fast he was moving through Wano's crust / how far he had to go.

Excluding his flashback, Kaido took 5 panels to break the crust and go into the magma chamber. Luffy started falling right while Onigashima was landing. He went through solid ground a longer distance than a free falling Luffy and STILL hit the magma chamber and was already shown floating in it post-impact before we even see Yamato run outside.

Also, Onigashima went from being above the flower capital by a great distance to being in the ground in less than a full page. If you don't include the two panels that are happening simultaneously (due to the shared SFX showing the sounds in the second and 3rd panels are the same), then Onigashima basically landed in one panel.

 

[Damage3245]

You can literally see the clouds continuing forward while Onigashima itself doesn't. That means there had to be a complete halt or at the very least a very sudden slowing.
We do see him do something similiar with his flame clouds too, albeit with a lighter Onigashima
Onigashima went from being right under Kaido to being on he side in moments during the clash. You gotta realize too, that this isn't a "short" distance by any means. It got pulled far enough to where Luffy's fist is tens of kilometers wide and so is Kaido's flaming dragon body. And Onigashima was out of their way in moments.

Onigashima got out of the way because Momonosuke was controlling the flame clouds to move it; not just because he was pulling on them.

Yes, but during those chapters (which occured in minutes anyway since the whole reason behind the rush was a 5 minutes thing) we see Momo pull it back further than it was before. If Onigashima was as close as it was before Momo started pulling it, Shock Wille wouldn't have been as far away as it was from the capital. We see it above the larger rocks near the capital in 1034, and far closer:
Not only is it further, it's HIGHER than before.

This is contradictory to Momo's statement. He says he can't lift it back up.

Also, the two shots there are from different angles which would affect the perspective and make it harder to detirmine if Onigashima was actually any higher up.

 

[SnookB]

Onigashima got out of the way because Momonosuke was controlling the flame clouds to move it; not just because he was pulling on them.

He was "controlling" the flame clouds by literally dragging them with his bare hands. Momo never once showed an instance of passively controling his clouds from a distance like Kaido. He barely even knows how to make them.

he's literally tucking his whole body under the cloud and pushing against it. Controlling it for levitation like Kaido would be not even touching them, but here he's showing physical effort.

Also, the two shots there are from different angles which would affect the perspective and make it harder to detirmine if Onigashima was actually any higher up.

Not necessarily. The first shot with the bigger Onigashima is an even further shot then the latter. The Shock Wille shot is far closer to the capital's wall and Onigashima looks even further regardless of the closer angle. You can see the full curve of the capital's land in 1034, whereas 1039's angle is far closer to the gate, which should make Onigashima look closer bigger and far more detailed if it didn't get moved away.

 

[Damage3245]

He was "controlling" the flame clouds by literally dragging them with his bare hands. Momo never once showed an instance of passively controling his clouds from a distance like Kaido. He barely even knows how to make them.
he's literally tucking his whole body under the cloud and pushing against it. Controlling it for levitation like Kaido would be not even touching them, but here he's showing physical effort.

I didn't mean that he was only telekinetically controlling it. He was doing both.

 

[SnookB]

Why would he be doing BOTH? He literally does not know how. We only see physical effort, we can't assume he's doing the latter when he never mentions it, never hints at it or even shows an attempt at doing what Kaido does. The way Momo uses those clouds is by creating them for slowing the island, but the actual moving out the way is all him pulling it just like he was doing with Kaido's clouds.

 

[Damage3245]

Will respond later tonight.

 

[WrongIdea21]

Assuming he knew how to control it was a really wild assumption, since Momo had only just learned how to take out his clouds half second ago.

 

[Damage3245]

Assuming he knew how to control it was a really wild assumption, since Momo had only just learned how to take out his clouds half second ago.

Momo using his flame clouds to control the island was always their plan. I'll go into detail later.

 

[WrongIdea21]

Momo using his flame clouds to control the island was always their plan. I'll go into detail later.

Momo used his flame clouds to hold the island from falling then he push the clouds for the movement.

 

[SnookB]

Momo using his flame clouds to control the island was always their plan.

It was the first plan that he failed at for the entire time. Up until the last second where he summoned them in a moment of panic.
He can create them, yes, but he can't "control" them in the traditional sense. It's an assumption to say he can telekinetically control them like Kaido when he's shown nothing of the sort.

What WrongIdea's saying is what is being shown. He created the clouds to mitigate the fall but the pull itself was ENTIRELY Momonosuke's physical might. The clouds made sure the island doesn't detonate on impact with the ground.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I guess my vote is with Tempest and Snook here, so count me on "agreeing the revision"

 

[KingTempest]

I'll post my arguments soon to explain my issues with the OP concisely, but just to address SnookB's latest post up above:



These do not require an extremely fast timeframe for Onigashima. Luffy was much higher up in the sky than Onigashima itself, and the speed of his falling from the sky would be nowhere near tens of kilometers per second.

So even if Onigashima took much longer than 10 seconds to fall, it still should have landed long before Luffy could hit the ground/be caught by Yamato.

Irrelevant. It hit the ground before Luffy could even transform back to base.

 

[SnookB]

This is only 2 pages but because of how much we went in circles it felt like 4 or 5

 

[Damage3245]

This is only 2 pages but because of how much we went in circles it felt like 4 or 5

Yeah, I'm sorry for that. I think I've been doing a bad job in explaining my interpretation of the feat as a whole. I'm working on something now for it.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay, some of this is fairly obvious and accepted by all and some of this is contenious and there's different interpretations, but I've written down a full list covering the sequence of Onigashima and the forces acting on it so that we can hopefully be the same page. I accept that I may be wrong or misinterpreting some of these things, but I'll put them out there anyway to see what people think:

In chapter 997, Kaido kicks off the sequence by lifting Onigashima from the ground with force Z upwards. [Crude Illustration]

In chapter 998 onwards, Kaido is flying Onigashima passively towards the mainland. He requires force Y upwards to counteract Onigashima's potential energy to stop it from falling and force X horizontally to move Onigashima in the direction he wants. [Crude Illustration]

In chapter 1014, Onigashima reaches the mainland, still flying along the course Kaido intends.

In chapter 1022, Onigashima is 15 minutes away from the Flower Capital, still flying over the mainland.

In chapter 1027, Yamato and Momonosuke realize that Kaido's power is weakening so his flame clouds are becoming unstable and aren't able to support all of the rock of Onigashima which is beginning to crumble away. Onigashima at this point is no more than five minutes away from the Flower Capital. Yamato's solution is for Momonosuke to create even stronger flame clouds than Kaido's which can push the island back.

In chapter 1028, Momonosuke tries to create flame clouds but isn't very successful. Onigashima is five minutes away from the Flower Capital.

In chapter 1034, with his first plan failing, Momonosuke has grabbed onto Kaido's existing flame clouds and is trying to physically drag Onigashima back from the Flower Capital to stop its descent. Onigashima at this point isn't falling because Kaido is still exerting force Y upwards as he doesn't want the island to simply plummet downwards uncontrollably and he's not at the Flower Capital yet. What Momonosuke is doing is countering or surpassing force X which is being used to move the island towards the Flower Capital with force W. [Crude Illustration]

In chapter 1036, we get a recap of the situation. If Kaido's flame clouds vanish, this will cause Onigashima will begin to fall. Meaning it isn't falling yet and Momonosuke isn't working against the energy of it falling but primarily the energy that is flying it in the direction of the Flower Capital.

In chapter 1039, Momonosuke comments that Onigashima is finally moving backwards and away from the Flower Capital. Until now he has accomplished in slowing down Onigashima and holding it at a standstill, but the force X has weakened to the point where his own force W is overpowering it and moving Onigashima backwards.

In chapter 1043, Momonosuke finally lets go of the Flame Clouds as he speaks to Zunesha. Onigashima doesn't begin falling because Kaido is still keeping it aloft with force Y upwards.

In chapter 1046, Yamato reiterates to Momonosuke that he has to create flame clouds to keep Onigashima aloft.

In chapter 1049, the flood of water from Raizo's jutsu finally extinguishes the flame clouds supporting Onigashima. The people inside Onigashima finally feel like the island is falling.

In chapter 1049 also, Momonosuke finally creates a huge ring of flame clouds to support Onigashima. They are working with force Y to keep Onigashima aloft since he doesn't want Onigashima to fall, and Momonosuke is either pushing on the clouds to move it with force W out of the way of Luffy's fist, controlling the clouds to move them with force X out of the way of Luffy's fist. Or both. Since Kaido's flame clouds no longer exist to push Onigashima is a certain direction, it is much easier either way for Momonosuke to move the island than before. [Crude Illustration]

Lastly in chapter 1049, Onigashima finally descends and touches down on the ground. There are differing interpretations here in exactly what happened.

• Momonosuke either controlled the Flame Clouds to accelerate Onigashima downwards extremely quickly, then counteracted the massive kinetic energy the moment it hit the ground by completely reversing the motion. This would require Momonosuke to have telekinetic control over the flame clouds which some users don't believe he should have.
• The flame clouds allowed the island to descend safely at less than terminal velocity; it still fell, but in a controlled manner so that it did not generate the huge kinetic energy in the first scenario. All this scenario would require is a lessening of force Y keeping Onigashima aloft, allowing gravity to bring it downwards and then the flame clouds would act like a cushion, keeping Onigashima stable as it landed.

That's the whole thing pretty much, with some very rough illustrations to hopefully assist in the breakdown.

 

[Nierre]

Damage even got the illustrations sheesh

The effort is unmatched

 

[SnookB]

Yeah, I'm sorry for that. I think I've been doing a bad job in explaining my interpretation of the feat as a whole. I'm working on something now for it.

No need to apologize tbh. The more discussion the better!

 

[Damage3245]

No need to apologize tbh. The more discussion the better!

Thanks for saying so.

 

[SnookB]

In chapter 1027, Yamato and Momonosuke realize that Kaido's power is weakening so his flame clouds are becoming unstable and aren't able to support all of the rock of Onigashima which is beginning to crumble away. Onigashima at this point is no more than five minutes away from the Flower Capital. Yamato's solution is for Momonosuke to create even stronger flame clouds than Kaido's which can push the island back.

In chapter 1028, Momonosuke tries to create flame clouds but isn't very successful. Onigashima is five minutes away from the Flower Capital.

In chapter 1034, with his first plan failing, Momonosuke has grabbed onto Kaido's existing flame clouds and is trying to physically drag Onigashima back from the Flower Capital to stop its descent. Onigashima at this point isn't falling because Kaido is still exerting force Y upwards as he doesn't want the island to simply plummet downwards uncontrollably and he's not at the Flower Capital yet. What Momonosuke is doing is countering or surpassing force X which is being used to move the island towards the Flower Capital with force W. [Crude Illustration]

The issue starts when Kaido's power starts weakening.
Once that's happening, Onigashima started going downwards. It has been ever since it was entering mainland to land right over the castle. So basically Momo's not countering a ←↑ course anymore, he'd be fighting a gradual ←↓ (or a quick one if the clouds entirely disappeared) again- it feels slow, but you have to remember, Onigashima was crossing wano mainland in 15 minutes to hit the capital. This island was crossing several hundreds of kilometers in only 15 minutes.


Momo's countering a downwards forward movement with the exact opposite of an upper backwards pull. When Kaido got defeated and Onigashima fell, the motion of it going at a downwards angle and forward was just a far faster paced version of how Kaido was taking it to the capital itself.
All of that gets countered by a single illustration from the author (1036)

Onigashima was always going to go down and forward from how fast it was moving.
Momo quite literally physically YANKED it the other direction of wha Kaido's clouds were doing, basically causing the opposite of that illustration to occur with his own countering force. Only in his case, his clouds cushioned the fall entirely and didn't allow the gunpowder to explode. Basically once Kaido got defeated, remember that Momo was NOT holding the island anymore, so it's entire force was going in the capital's direction and Momo un-did all of that in a moment when recreating and pulling on his own clouds. The exact same fall happened, but in the OTHER direction.
If Momo only cushioned it but not away from the capital then you could argue he didn't lift it, but the guy quite literally snapped its course into the other direction while at it.

 

[Damage3245]

Once that's happening, Onigashima started going downwards. It has been ever since it was entering mainland to land right over the castle. So basically Momo's not countering a ←↑ course anymore, he'd be fighting a gradual ←↓ (or a quick one if the clouds entirely disappeared) again- it feels slow, but you have to remember, Onigashima was crossing wano mainland in 15 minutes to hit the capital. This island was crossing several hundreds of kilometers in only 15 minutes.

It would still be ←↑ course that he's fighting against even if Onigashima was gradually descending downwards; because Kaido is still enacting force on Onigashima to keep it from falling. Kaido is not adding more force downwards to make it fall faster.

Onigashima descending is not the same as Onigashima falling.

 

[SnookB]

Onigashima descending is not the same as Onigashima falling.

But it did fall when Kaido's clouds disappeared, that's the thing.

It would still be ←↑ course that he's fighting against even if Onigashima was gradually descending downwards; because Kaido is still enacting force on Onigashima to keep it from falling. Kaido is not adding more force downwards to make it fall faster.

The thing is, it's odd that it's going UP if we see it lower. Why would it have a straight forward or upwards course if we don't see it go higher UNTIL Momonosuke starts pulling on it?