Eminiteable
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I agree with damage on this, I remember that being brought up during the old 6-B scaling thread.
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One Piece God-High Tiers Revision
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A couple thoughts and questions.
So the whole smoker, ace, akainu, aokiji thing is kinda weird. I get devil fruit cancelling and superiority
But if that's the case and smoke counters fire.
And if we're saying fire counters ice
Can ice also be a counter to magma?
Because by one piece logic magma is hot enough to Burn fire.
If fire is an even counter to ice. And magma is hot enough to burn fire then akainu should have a severe advantage over aokiji fruit?
unless we're saying aokiji could stalemate akainu for 10 days while being his equal but having a inferior devil fruit
also do elemental counters like this work across tier gaps cuz high 7A ace's fire being stalemated by 8A smokers smoke seems kinda funky?
Am I off base or does any of that make sense. Sorry it's like 7 Am here
So the whole smoker, ace, akainu, aokiji thing is kinda weird. I get devil fruit cancelling and superiority
But if that's the case and smoke counters fire.
And if we're saying fire counters ice
Can ice also be a counter to magma?
Because by one piece logic magma is hot enough to Burn fire.
If fire is an even counter to ice. And magma is hot enough to burn fire then akainu should have a severe advantage over aokiji fruit?
unless we're saying aokiji could stalemate akainu for 10 days while being his equal but having a inferior devil fruit
also do elemental counters like this work across tier gaps cuz high 7A ace's fire being stalemated by 8A smokers smoke seems kinda funky?
Am I off base or does any of that make sense. Sorry it's like 7 Am here
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Well, Akainu did ultimately end up winning their duel.
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He turns off their abilities so they have to think of a completely different way of fighting, then he can punch him in weak places and such.
You seem to be forgetting that Ace hurt him with every technique he landed, drawing blood and giving burns with every attack.
Ace lost because of the devil fruit he had. He did not lose because of an AP advantage.
Which is why he said
Also, it's kinda pissing me off that we're using the guy who gave a cautious Shanks a scar as an antifeat. The same guy who Ace said was strong enough to be a commander without a devil fruit is the guy we're using as an antifeat. It's kinda annoying.
Because that hasn't been proven by a single person here.
Akainu beat him and he said "my fruit is superior to yours". He didn't say "I'm stronger than you and my fruit is superior to yours. so you just have 0 chance at all to beat me", he just said "you're fire? Ha, I'm magma which burns fire, my fruit is superior to yours" which explains why they clashed and matched each other for a short period of time before Ace was overpowered via DF advantage.
Nothing proves Akainu was stronger or had more AP, especially when Oda said "superior abilities ≠ stronger".
Oda only portrayed one elemental advantage the entire show and that was the Magu2 and the Mera2, then he says that it doesn't mean that they're stronger? And shouldn't Ace be comparable to his peers too? That's not an argument.
We've been doing this exact same scaling for at least a year+, but since Ace is going to a higher tier, the world wants to shut down.
Smoker's attack's don't have AP. Aokiji's do.
Your point was that "He didn't want to fight Smoker because their powers cancelled out". He wanted to fight Aokiji. Aokiji wouldn't have ran up on Ace if he knew that their abilities cancelled out.
And Akainu and Aokiji were stated to be equals in strength and they fought for too long because their strength was equal, not because their DFs cancelled each other out.
Plus, Akainu melted Aokiji's ice and his magma was still there consistently during the war, it's not because of counteracting abilities.
That's fair.
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But Blackbeard's durability at that time scales to High 7-A anyway.
Why would he not have? Would he just stand back and do nothing? Aokiji was running up to Ace and Luffy, and Ace stepped forwards to clash with Aokiji.
Blackbeard beats Ace singlehandedly.
Blackbeard runs away from Akainu while his whole crew is there.
But Akainu and Ace are equally strong? That doesn't work out to me.
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- #126
Via scaling off of Ace. If Ace gets upgraded, so does he.
Because, if Ace was there and their powers cancelled out, he wouldn't have wasted his time and energy. Not the same thing with Smoker, who wasn't ready for Ace and left when Ace became an issue.
Blackbeard beat Ace because Ace is a horrifyingly bad fighter without his devil fruit and he hit Ace in a bunch of weak spots. Blackbeard also told his crew not to go fight him.
Akainu is good with or without. He is a strong physical fighter (who could kick down Shirohige's weapon) with 2 colors of Haki that he can use whenever.
I like how we don't just think that maybe Blackbeard and Ace is potentially an outlier since Ace has encounters with 2 High tiers and left light burns on a God tier, but Blackbeard, who can scar a god tier, is an issue.
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Completely unuseable right now to me. We don't have any hard details about how their fight went other than Shanks being scarred, and Blackbeard didn't feel like fighting Shanks and his crew after he got his hands on the Darkness fruit and Earthquake fruit. So Blackbeard being comparable or equal to Shanks before his power-ups makes zero sense right now.
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Damage do you atleast agree with bumping admirals to 6-B? And Marco and jozu?
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"I got this scar from your crewmate. And I wasn't off guard or anything"
"Didn't feel like fighting" ≠ "Being scared of them".
He said "I got what I needed". What's the point of him getting the fruit that he wants if he just goes to fight and risk losing his life for no reason, especially when Garp and Sengoku are still there out for blood.
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Blackbeard and Akainu can't be used as Anti-feats for Ace, Teach's physical strength and durability are nothing to ignore, he left a scar on Shanks and endured a Quake to the head from Whitebeard without all too much damage, and he even damaged Whitebeard with his strikes.
Akainu's Magu Magu is a hard counter to Ace's Mera Mera no Mi, not only that but Ace's performance was hindered due to prolonged exposure to Seastone and torture whilst at Impel Down so he wasn't at his peak at the time either.
Nobody is saying Ace is equal to Akainu, but to say Akainu is capable of stomping Ace is false whenever Ace is shown to be able to harm comparable characters and even retaliate against Akainu despite his DF disadvantage. He'd downscale from Admirals much how like Jozu and Marco are, they aren't are strong but they can pose a threat to the Admirals.
Akainu's Magu Magu is a hard counter to Ace's Mera Mera no Mi, not only that but Ace's performance was hindered due to prolonged exposure to Seastone and torture whilst at Impel Down so he wasn't at his peak at the time either.
Nobody is saying Ace is equal to Akainu, but to say Akainu is capable of stomping Ace is false whenever Ace is shown to be able to harm comparable characters and even retaliate against Akainu despite his DF disadvantage. He'd downscale from Admirals much how like Jozu and Marco are, they aren't are strong but they can pose a threat to the Admirals.
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Beautiful revision, I agree.
Also, I think we’re forgetting something against Ace vs Akainu. While it’s true that Magma>Fire, that Ace was literally half dead. After all the beatings, levels in Impel Down, shackling, I do think Ace was a bit nerfed during said fight.
Jinbe also blocked Big Mom’s attacks twice, along with punching her back a considerable distance away in WCI. This is just my two cents, though.
Also, I think we’re forgetting something against Ace vs Akainu. While it’s true that Magma>Fire, that Ace was literally half dead. After all the beatings, levels in Impel Down, shackling, I do think Ace was a bit nerfed during said fight.
Jinbe also blocked Big Mom’s attacks twice, along with punching her back a considerable distance away in WCI. This is just my two cents, though.
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Retaliate against Akainu? We get a single clash between them, and Ace is instantly burned and thrown back.
Clashing with Akainu isn't enough for me to think that he's comparable to him.
Luffy has tons of feats similar to this; punching Blackbeard with Gear 2, decking Garp in the face, surviving attacks from Kizaru and Aokiji, etc. But we'd consider it ridiculous for base Pre-Timeskip Luffy to be 6-B, on the same tier as the Admirals.
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- #133
There's no way in hell are you trying to compare the 2nd division commander of the Whitebeard pirates to the main character who was a Mid Tier with his strongest attacks. Luffy needed Gear Third to beat someone in the same position that Ace fought 3 years prior to the story.
Damage, you can not compare Ace to Luffy. We see Luffy's progression.
Ace went from matching Vice Admirals in the beginning of his journey to scarring WB and not instantly dying from admirals. Luffy went from Buggy to Arlong. That's a horrible comparison.
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And literally a page later Ace stands back up and got ready to start fighting again. Also saying he got thrown down is dishonest, Ace got burned and then fell backwards in pain, if Akainu flung him Ace would have gone a hell of a lot further back.
He was literally right about to get up and continue fighting, Akainu wasn't able to one shot Ace or grievously harm him.
Yeah this comparison falls flat, King explained why above.
This is just low really, comparing Gear Second Luffy who's incredibly inconsistent vs a Commander with consistent feats?
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Ace gets up to his knees, yes. That just means he wasn't instantly killed by their clash.
Akainu then proceeded to one-shot Ace.
I think it's incredibly inconsistent for Ace to get boosted up to 6-B. The man barely has High 7-A feats by himself.
But we're ignoring feats done by any of these characters on their own in favor of scaling them to Whitebeard and Blackbeard who have the highest feats in the verse.
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You know that Akainu doesn't even have 7-A feats correct?
Let's name the people Ace has fought.
17 Years Old
Vice Admiral.Jinbe.
Yamato.
20 Years Old
Smoker.Blackbeard.
Aokiji.
Akainu.
Whitebeard.
He matched Jinbe who could partially block an attack from Big Mom and Akainu and now Ace is garbage. We don't even have a Yamato profile yet so no.
We can cross Smoker out because that was elemental headassery.
We can look at Blackbeard twice. Because you stated that Blackbeard is High 7-A and Ace lost to him, but Blackbeard scales to Ace currently and we just didn't edit his profile yet, so if anything, he would scale even higher.
Now. Aokiji, Akainu, and Whitebeard. Look at this twice.
Who do you think Ace is, Buggy? Ace is strong.
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"Wasn't instantly killed." meaning his Durability wasn't bypassed by Akainu, I.E they're relative in powe with Akainu having the edge, Ace was in the midst of recovering to clash with Akainu again.
Blatant lack of context, let's not even go there. Akainu was only capable of one shotting Ace due to the circumstances at hand, Akainu was going to deliver a killing blow to his brother and Ace wanted to save him, again all of this is all contextual.
You tend to say "I think" an awful lot instead of giving actual proper arguments with all due respect it's tiresome. First of all, the man has a PASSIVE high 7-A feat and all his other feats were pre Whitebeard training.
Ace post Whitebeard training doesn't have "feats", they're shown being relative in power to the Admirals, the rest is irrelevant. Blackbeard even the Gura can harm Whitebeard and even endure a quake to the head from him, again Ace fought him and scales.
Ace has plenty more feats than "Anti feats" which aren't even Anti Feats as they blatantly ignore context.
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Completely made-up. Ace was no in a fighting stance or shown being prepared to attack again.
The circumstances being that Akainu had an open-shot on Ace's back? Yeah, that would really lower his durability there...
If Luffy punched Doflamingo straight through the chest and tore a hole in him, would you be thinking "Luffy has a slight edge on Doflamingo"?
No kidding, we're discussing our opinions on powerscaling. This is all based on what we think from our interpretation of the manga.
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C’mon, Damage. Seriously, this half dead guy matched an Admiral, only to fight another Admiral who’s literally his counter, yet die until he literally ran and sacrificed himself for his brother.
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Take a look at his posture, he was in the midst of getting back up and was hell bent on continuing his fight with Akainu. Again, this is a blatant lack of context in disguise of an actual argument. They started fighting due to Akainu laying down smack talk, Ace wanted to fight for Whitebeard's honor and even stayed back to do so. Both what we're shown in the manga and going by Occams Razer, Ace was going to continue fighting. This was the entire point of him staying behind, so once again let's not be dishonest or intentionally ignorant of evidence here.
Akainu is the same guy who has Durability Negation that can melt past Whitebeard with direct application, and again Ace intentionally sacrificed himself so this can't be used as an anti feat.
Fortunately for us this little "what if" of yours didn't happen so I'm not even gonna entertain this comparison. One if a made up situation in combat whereas the other involves a plot driven sacrifice.
Which is entirely fair but you should also be giving proper arguments instead of heavily relying on Argument from Disbelief. I can understand the skepticism to a certain extent but with his feats against Admirals and co he should get a flat out rating of "likely" 6-B at the absolute worst.
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I agree with LordGin on everything.
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As do I.
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Pre-Gura Gura BB should never be scaled to Post-Gura Gura BB’s Feat, because that feat was meant to show off his brand new power, that’s all I’m saying
Also it’s kinda hard to believe the idea that not having his DF powers and getting hit in his weak point allows him to be hurt by someone thousands of times weaker than him
Also it’s kinda hard to believe the idea that not having his DF powers and getting hit in his weak point allows him to be hurt by someone thousands of times weaker than him
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This is why ace is a bit controversial. I personally am 100% sure about admirals/marco/jozu scaling though.
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@Damage3245 What in this CRT do you currently agree with being 6-B?
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Pre-Gura2 BB does not scale to Ace or Post-Gura2 BB.
That should be removed from the profiles and he should get an alternate scaling method, or just be comparable to his commanders.
What does Blackbeard scale to outside of Ace and why? BB's first AP feat was hitting Ace in weak points. He has no feats outside of that.
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I can comprise for a flat out rating of "Likely 6-B."
And if you really wanna get picky a "Low 6-B, Likely 6-B" works. His High 7-A feat shouldn't even be taken into consideration as it's a passive effect.
And if you really wanna get picky a "Low 6-B, Likely 6-B" works. His High 7-A feat shouldn't even be taken into consideration as it's a passive effect.
Eminiteable
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I can agree with this over "At least High 7-A, Likely 6-B"
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I'll take it
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So what do pre TS BB scale to now and what does ace scale to? Cause pre TS BB scales to Ace for some flawed reason
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@Damage3245 Would like to hear your thoughts fam.
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They don't get notifications when you @ them, only staff can notify people
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I know, but when he reads the thread he will see it.
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I'm currently thinking about. Going back over past chapters.
I'm convinced though that Blackbeard should not be on the same level as he was before getting Whitebeard's Devil Fruit. AoE stuff aside, it's just all kinds of narratively wrong that the God-Tier Devil Fruit that Blackbeard schemed to steal, which would make him "invincible" in his own view when combined with his Darkness fruit, would grant effectively zero or negligible AP upgrades to him.
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What are your thoughts about the admirals/jozu/Marco being 6-B? Akainu IMO out of all of them has the highest justification for 6-B.
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- #156
Teach would backscale from Ace for hurting him in weak spots. He shouldn't and wouldn't scale fully to Ace since Ace wasn't in pain from a chest hit or something.
Ace's DF clearly shows superiority to Teach's body by piercing him with flame spears and such.
Mid TS Teach's Gura Gura > YC Commanders (Including Ace) ~ Admirals > Pre TS Teach's Gura Gura > Pre TS Teach's Physicals > Ace's Weak Points.
We've already given the Gura Gura durability negation and large scale AOE.
BB's Gura Gura would level up over time, which is why a year after the war he could fight Marco and such, but him immediately after he ate the fruit he would scale below the people we see.
Eating a fruit shouldn't immediately scale you over everyone you fought before. Sabo didn't become 10x of a demon than he already was because of the Mera Mera, this shouldn't be different.
Ace's DF clearly shows superiority to Teach's body by piercing him with flame spears and such.
Mid TS Teach's Gura Gura > YC Commanders (Including Ace) ~ Admirals > Pre TS Teach's Gura Gura > Pre TS Teach's Physicals > Ace's Weak Points.
We've already given the Gura Gura durability negation and large scale AOE.
BB's Gura Gura would level up over time, which is why a year after the war he could fight Marco and such, but him immediately after he ate the fruit he would scale below the people we see.
Eating a fruit shouldn't immediately scale you over everyone you fought before. Sabo didn't become 10x of a demon than he already was because of the Mera Mera, this shouldn't be different.
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I'm not too sure whether Ace should scale to Blackbeard and Akainu, but I feel like it would be super inconsistent if Marco, Vista, and Jozu scale while Ace does not. Vista pretty much has the weakest justification, he clashed for a while with a non-serious Mihawk and was completely ineffective (along with Marco) when they tried to jump Akainu. And while Jozu and Marco did damage Aokiji, both cases were sneak attacks when Aokiji was focused on someone else. IMO none of the WB division commanders really have a great case for scaling to the Admirals. Matching or blocking one or two attacks - which is what Ace and Marco actually do have viz-a-viz Akainu and Aokiji shouldn't be used as a justification for full on scaling, maybe they can work with "at least X likely Y" qualifier
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Marco has a databook statement of being comparable to the admirals and they fought the admirals offscreen for a long period of time and only lost when they were off guard.
Vista fought a non serious Mihawk while he was holding back as well.
The Akainu ineffectiveness was explained in my Busoshoku Haki thread to be superior Busoshoku, not AP wise.
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My thoughts exactly, damage. Black beard was offered 2nd division commander with no df. Around the time he was probably even with shanks.
Problem is, is that the yami yami upgrade wouldn't boost his physical power but probably his aoe. It doesn't have that much enhancement, it's just ability neg mostly until we see more than push and pull.
Ace can still probably scale to this version but i wouldn't make him equal to black beard. But in a sense blaci beard would still physically be on par with the commanders; marco, jozu and vista with yami yami. He was capable of harming whitebeard and stay conscious after taking significant blows from white beard.
Gura gura is what enhaced his physical, separating him from marco, vista and jozu in ap and dura.
He described the devil fruits he has being most unique in a way where its different & makes superior being the black sheep kinda in the logia class, and then the most destructive having most possession of powerful paramecia that can rival logia dfs.
I think another problem people have with ace being 6-B is that he's still a rookie. Only been on the sea for 2-3 years compared to Everyone else who has much experience. His has a very fast growth but isn't precisely settled in on that level.
I would go with likely 6-B but you can't deny the facts that he did match probably black beard and akainu in strength, stalemate aokiji even tho it was just devil fruits, stalemate yamamoto who shrugged off luffy's ryou attacks that dropped kaido multiple times etc.
That's my thoughts.
Problem is, is that the yami yami upgrade wouldn't boost his physical power but probably his aoe. It doesn't have that much enhancement, it's just ability neg mostly until we see more than push and pull.
Ace can still probably scale to this version but i wouldn't make him equal to black beard. But in a sense blaci beard would still physically be on par with the commanders; marco, jozu and vista with yami yami. He was capable of harming whitebeard and stay conscious after taking significant blows from white beard.
Gura gura is what enhaced his physical, separating him from marco, vista and jozu in ap and dura.
He described the devil fruits he has being most unique in a way where its different & makes superior being the black sheep kinda in the logia class, and then the most destructive having most possession of powerful paramecia that can rival logia dfs.
I think another problem people have with ace being 6-B is that he's still a rookie. Only been on the sea for 2-3 years compared to Everyone else who has much experience. His has a very fast growth but isn't precisely settled in on that level.
I would go with likely 6-B but you can't deny the facts that he did match probably black beard and akainu in strength, stalemate aokiji even tho it was just devil fruits, stalemate yamamoto who shrugged off luffy's ryou attacks that dropped kaido multiple times etc.
That's my thoughts.
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