One Piece Cloud Calculation Rule (For One Piece)

[KingTempest]

Yeah.

DT made this rule for most cloud calculations to utilize his calculator in order to find cloud mass.
It's based on the fact that in the real world, the density we use (1.003 kg) doesn't account for the fact that air gets less dense as it rises.

But as he said in the previous earthquake thread, different planets fall under different rules.

Like I said in the thread to make the planet larger, the atmosphere is different.

The Atmosphere of the One Piece planet is drastically different from earth.

For starters, the Atmosphere is hinted to be much larger, hinted with the fact that people can travel to the moon via methods requiring air.

It is said in the real world that it is impossible for balloons to reach space since they expand to the point of combustion at 10 Km. This is shown to differ from the One Piece planet, since in Enel's Cover Story of Chapter 453, the Automata reach the moon via using Air Balloons.

The atmosphere having that quality is not contradicted. In fact, it's supported. Enel uses the Ark, Maxim, which uses multiple rotors and propellers to help it fly, to get to the moon. His backup is 200 Jet Dials, which uses air to accelerate whatever it's connected to, in case anything happens to keep the ship in the air for an hour (Chapter 285). We can see the propellors working in space in Chapter 428, and we see that Enel arrived in Chapter 429.

The planet also has enough air to breathe at extremely high elevations, even though it admittedly does get harder to breathe at higher altitudes. According to this website, the max altitude you can breathe in the real world is 20,000 feet, or 6,096 meters. In Chapter 238, we see that the Oxygen is scarce at 7,000 meters high in the sky on the White Sea, but it's still enough to breathe there. This is brought up again in Chapter 242 when they reach the White-White Sea, 10,000 meters high, where there is still enough air to breathe.

The Atmosphere 7,000 and 10,000 above Sea level can also handle and create dense clouds that can maintain holding ships and people, referred to as Sea Clouds and Island Clouds.

On top of that, the only natural clouds that do exist in One Piece are dense enough for people to walk on.
One of em can hold ships, one of em can hold people. Noted as the Sky Ocean, as it acts like the ocean, and is much less buoyant than water.
Regular clouds don't do that.

So when it comes to new calculations that utilize the clouds from hundreds of thousands of meters in the air, it logically doesn't make sense to use his calculator.
For example.
If I utilize DT's calculator with the height of 410825.38888889 meters away from the ground (it's much further than that), it doesn't matter your area. You wouldn't get shit.

It would be so thin that it'd be invisible.
But that's not true. We can see how deep and dense they are.

Basically, either we
A. Find another way to calculate the density using whatever method DT used
B. Use the 1.003 density.

Because it makes no sense for these dense clouds to weigh literally nothing.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm in support of doing things differently for One Piece, given the evident differences in its atmosphere and the clearly dense clouds that the calculator contradicts

 

[Kachon123]

Holy shit finally

 

[Damage3245]

Following this thread and currently neutral on it.

That said one thought I had was:

The planet also has enough air to breathe at extremely high elevations, even though it admittedly does get harder to breathe at higher altitudes. According to this website, the max altitude you can breathe in the real world is 20,000 feet, or 6,096 meters. In Chapter 238, we see that the Oxygen is scarce at 7,000 meters high in the sky on the White Sea, but it's still enough to breathe there. This is brought up again in Chapter 242 when they reach the White-White Sea, 10,000 meters high, where there is still enough air to breathe.

There isn't enough air to breathe for normal people. Luffy and company have Adaptation for being able to adjust and survive in an environment where they had difficulty breathing initially. So I don't think that people living up there on the Sky Islands is proof that "there is enough air to breathe" so much as the people up there can just deal with having less Oxygen. As you acknowledge, it gets harder to breathe at higher altitudes in One Piece just as it does in real-life. Which means the atmosphere must thin out the higher one goes, so using the 1.003 density does not seem like a realistic option.

 

[KingTempest]

There isn't enough air to breathe for normal people. Luffy and company have Adaptation for being able to adjust and survive in an environment where they had difficulty breathing initially. So I don't think that people living up there on the Sky Islands is proof that "there is enough air to breathe" so much as the people up there can just deal with having less Oxygen. As you acknowledge, it gets harder to breathe at higher altitudes in One Piece just as it does in real-life. Which means the atmosphere must thin out the higher one goes, so using the 1.003 density does not seem like a realistic option.

Different

People can breathe up there, they just can't breathe as well as they could usually breathe.
They have adaptation for being able to adjust instantly to where they can't breathe

There's enough to breathe up there. Regular humans breathe up there.
Strawhats could breathe up there. They just can't breathe WELL up there.

The source didn't say "how far until you struggle to breathe".
It said "What is the highest elevation that a person can go and still be able to breathe?"
And they said
"An elevation of about 20,000 feet above sea level is the maximum height at which sufficient oxygen exists in the air to sustain us."

So that point's not the best

 

[Damage3245]

Right, but that's "regular humans" in One Piece, where characters regularly survive ridiculous attacks anyway and don't function realistically. I'm just saying that for them breathing up there it doesn't necessarily mean that the density of the atmosphere is super-different to ours, it just means that humans can survive up there. How they survive up there is a bit open to interpretation.

Not arguing the point strongly; just want to leave that thought before I head off for the night.

 

[KingTempest]

Right, but that's "regular humans" in One Piece, where characters regularly survive ridiculous attacks anyway and don't function realistically. I'm just saying that for them breathing up there it doesn't necessarily mean that the density of the atmosphere is super-different to ours, it just means that humans can survive up there. How they survive up there is a bit open to interpretation.

They specifically state that it's hard to breathe.
They don't state that it's impossible to breathe.

At the end of the day, the source says "they can't breathe above that."
If you want another source, then the death sone would say even more, since 8,000 meters up there flat out isn't enough air there.

We never do this. Whenever we have a limit of OP humans being different than regular humans, we just note that as something that doesn't exist.
This isn't a OP human limit. There's flat out enough air up there for things of that caliber to exist and breathe

 

[KingTempest]

On top of that, the only natural clouds that do exist in One Piece are dense enough for people to walk on.
One of em can hold ships, one of em can hold people.
Regular clouds don't do that.

Added

 

[Damage3245]

Just to note as well this thread should probably be left up to Calc Group Members unless anyone posts anything specifically related to a calcing method. We don't need a lot of users coming in to be grateful that this thread is happening.

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah unless they have evidence to provide (like the part I just sent/added was provided by Gin and Kachon) then I doubt that they should be here

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Hmmm, yeah I didn’t think about this, clouds at the height of Onigashima just shouldn’t exist, but clearly do

 

[M3X_2.0]

I'm in support of doing things differently for One Piece, given the evident differences in its atmosphere and the clearly dense clouds that the calculator contradicts

Same here

 

[Dalesean027]

I'm fine with this as well

 

[Damage3245]

For reference, DT's calculator doesn't find the mass of the clouds. It finds the mass of the air + the clouds.

Since we know that the air does get thinner to an extent in OP even at just 7000 meters above sea level, the 1.003 density option probably wouldn't work.

And as for the feasibility of a new calculator, DT would be the best person to answer that.

 

[KingTempest]

For reference, DT's calculator doesn't find the mass of the clouds. It finds the mass of the air + the clouds.

Since we knew that the air does get thinner to an extent in OP even at just 7000 meters above sea level, the 1.003 density option probably wouldn't work.

Shoot.

At this point, density of clouds in OP could actually be closer in yield to the density of water instead of air, since it has shown unnatural density

And as for the feasibility of a new calculator, DT would be the best person to answer that.

I saw the calculator he used. I just need help with a formula

But even with that I wouldn't be sure on how to consider change in altitude

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yeah, this is difficult. Since air thins out in One Piece we can't just use the constant. But for atmospheres much thicker than our own the barometric formula (which the calculator is based on) doesn't work.

Aside from that, I don't think the only natural clouds in one piece are the ocean and island clouds? He explicitly says that these clouds have different nuclei from normal clouds. I.e. those are not the normal ones. It even mentions how they are not just moisture, but are moisture + sea prism stone, launched up by vulcanic eruptions. So I don't think their density would be applicable to any clouds that are not specifically that.

 

[Damage3245]

Aside from that, I don't think the only natural clouds in one piece are the ocean and island clouds? He explicitly says that these clouds have different nuclei from normal clouds. I.e. those are not the normal ones. It even mentions how they are not just moisture, but are moisture + sea prism stone, launched up by vulcanic eruptions. So I don't think their density would be applicable to any clouds that are not specifically that.

Yes, that is true.

Yeah, this is difficult. Since air thins out in One Piece we can't just use the constant. But for atmospheres much thicker than our own the barometric formula (which the calculator is based on) doesn't work.

Seems like another possible option is that the feats cannot be reliably calculated, unfortunately.

 

[KingTempest]

Aside from that, I don't think the only natural clouds in one piece are the ocean and island clouds? He explicitly says that these clouds have different nuclei from normal clouds. I.e. those are not the normal ones. It even mentions how they are not just moisture, but are moisture + sea prism stone, launched up by vulcanic eruptions. So I don't think their density would be applicable to any clouds that are not specifically that.

He references those ones as natural forming, but there are also a bunch of other clouds in the series.

Seems like another possible option is that the feats cannot be reliably calculated, unfortunately.

Not really, just use the density of clouds we can see.

@DontTalkDT Can't we find/estimate the density of clouds via its darkness and its type?

Air thins out but it thins out at a drastically different rate. Shoot it's not thin enough to dissipate several dozens of millions of meters above the ground where there's still enough air to propel and fly from

 

[DontTalkDT]

He references those ones as natural forming, but there are also a bunch of other clouds in the series.

Natural forming via a natural vulcanic eruption launching sea stone into the air. That still seems like the exception, not the rule. Same for the other cloud types on that wiki page. It's not like natural clouds from water don't exist in the verse (Fog Tempo for example)

@DontTalkDT Can't we find/estimate the density of clouds via its darkness and its type?

What do you mean?

Air thins out but it thins out at a drastically different rate. Shoot it's not thin enough to dissipate several dozens of millions of meters above the ground where there's still enough air to propel and fly from

Different rate is still unknown density, though.

 

[KingTempest]

Natural forming via a natural vulcanic eruption launching sea stone into the air. That still seems like the exception, not the rule. Same for the other cloud types on that wiki page. It's not like natural clouds from water don't exist in the verse (Fog Tempo for example)

Natural clouds from water do exist, but the issue isn't that natural clouds don't exist, but natural clouds with the density of irl clouds barely exist, and they're very dense.

"Regular clouds" are utilized by Doflamingo to fly. He attaches strings onto them and hangs off of them. That's flat out any clouds.

What do you mean?

You can tell the type of cloud by its darkness and color

Different rate is still unknown density, though.

Can't we just find a base density and find another density from a higher point in the planet based on the air density?

 

[Da3ggman]

It's about time. I definitely agree

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[CloverDragon03]

Seems like another possible option is that the feats cannot be reliably calculated, unfortunately.

Frankly, I'm staunchly opposed to this. I think the biggest example of why I say this comes in the form of the famous Haki clash-induced cloud splits. These are like... legitimately super important even from a narrative standpoint, something along the lines of "when two Yonko clash, the heavens split" iirc

I get the sentiment, and I can see in your response that you see it as unfortunate much like I would, but I feel as if it'd be much more effective to find a way to reliably calculate such feats given their importance. Dismissing them doesn't sit right with me, and really should only be considered if there's legitimately no other option.

Just thought I'd give my opinion here as well as revive the thread

 

[Damage3245]

@CloverDragon03 Not trying to day that it is the only option, but it is an option.

One option I'm in favour of is to just keep using the current cloud calculator for them, but that's being seen as too much of a downplay if the feats.

 

[KingTempest]

It won't downplay the feats, it'll delete the feats.

They flat out can't get a mass over a kilogram nor more than a single joule or a single ton

 

[Eseseso]

I know I shouldn't be commenting here, but KT's water density for the clouds isn't a terrible option, considering that the clouds are, as mentioned, dense enough for people to walk on and Doflamingo literally wraps his strings around normal clouds to swing on.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I know I shouldn't be commenting here, but KT's water density for the clouds isn't a terrible option, considering that the clouds are, as mentioned, dense enough for people to walk on and Doflamingo literally wraps his strings around normal clouds to swing on.

That is impossible, based on people walking on them they are denser than water, and if they are denser or as dense as water, then that means that they should be falling due to gravity.
The clouds are a scentific impossibility.

 

[Eseseso]

That is impossible, based on people walking on them they are denser than water, and if they are as denser or as dense as water, then that means that they should be falling due to gravity.
The clouds are a scentific impossibility.

That's kind of my point, although I didn't say it properly.

The density of water would be a lowball here.

 

[Damage3245]

I know I shouldn't be commenting here, but KT's water density for the clouds isn't a terrible option, considering that the clouds are, as mentioned, dense enough for people to walk on and Doflamingo literally wraps his strings around normal clouds to swing on.

Those aren't the clouds that are relevant to the calcs.

 

[KingTempest]

Those aren't the clouds that are relevant to the calcs.

They're the rule for clouds in general in the verse, not just the rule for super high clouds

 

[Damage3245]

They're the rule for clouds in general in the verse, not just the rule for super high clouds

Absolutely not, that's just in Skypiea / sky islands. They even specify how they're different from normal clouds which can't be sailed on or walked on

 

[Eseseso]

I mean, normal clouds are still dense enough for Doflamingo to latch onto with his strings.

 

[Damage3245]

I mean, normal clouds are still dense enough for Doflamingo to latch onto with his strings.

Could just be a property of the Ito Ito no Mi. It isn't confirmed that all clouds have an unusual density which allows that to happen.

 

[SnookB]

Could just be a property of the Ito Ito no Mi. It isn't confirmed that all clouds have an unusual density which allows that to happen.

He uses it on Dressrosa, and he used it flying from Dressrosa all the way to Punk Hazard. There's no reason to assume there's a specific cluster of clouds that functions that way, rather than them just being the common clouds that his ability relies on. Usually the right answer's the simplest one.
I know it's a CGM thing- just throwing in my two cents

 

[Damage3245]

He uses it on Dressrosa, and he used it flying from Dressrosa all the way to Punk Hazard. There's no reason to assume there's a specific cluster of clouds that functions that way, rather than them just being the common clouds that his ability relies on. Usually the right answer's the simplest one.
I know it's a CGM thing- just throwing in my two cents

I didn't say it was only a specific cluster of clouds with unique properties. I said it's possible it's the unique abilities of the Ito Ito no Mi's strings which allow him to latch onto any cloud.


Either way though, it's still no reason to use water density for cloud calculations.

 

[KingTempest]

I didn’t say use water density for all clouds, I said don’t use DT’s calculator for any clouds

 

[Damage3245]

I didn’t say use water density for all clouds, I said don’t use DT’s calculator for any clouds

Okay, sorry, Eseseo implied you did.

 

[CloverDragon03]

It won't downplay the feats, it'll delete the feats.

They flat out can't get a mass over a kilogram nor more than a single joule or a single ton

This

Like, I tried the calculator for one of said cloud splits. The resulting mass was, quite literally, 0 kilograms. The calculator was only made with real world-esque clouds in mind (because the barometric formula is designed for real-world stuff)

 

[KingTempest]

What’s the density of Doffy’s strings we can find without calc stacking

Could use that for the average and use Water for sky island feats

 

[Eseseso]

We could consider using the density of one of the earth's least dense natural solids, pumice (.25 g/cm3, or 250 kg/m3).

Or average that with the density of one of the earth's least dense man made solids, aerogel (.00146 g/cm3, or 1.46g/cm3 with its encapsulated air).

Averaging them gets us a density of 126 kg/m3.