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Major EarthBound Revisions Part I: Cosmology and Stat Revisions
- Thread starter VileShadows
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If you took a bite out of a higher dimensional cupcake, it'd still be a higher dimensional cupcake you took a bite out of it and no matter how infinitely small a piece you took, it'd never drop below that dimensionality and tier of power (Low 1-C I guess in this case).
In the same way, no matter how infinitely small a fraction of 10-C you get, you'll never drop to like 1 or 2D. Or same with tier 2 stuff.
From my understanding, he took in a higher dimensional power that is quantifiably above the entirety of the verse, no matter how little he took, that won't change.
If a 2D being absorbed some random amount of 3D energy, even that of like a snail's KE, that'd still put them infinitely above their original power and into the above.
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Not necessarily. A 4 dimensional object still exists with our 3 dimensions, you could easily just interact with only them in this case. Not to mention we don't give tier 1 rating anyway to not non-insignificant higher dimensional size, we either just treat that as unknown/unquantifiable or through just the feats that they've displayed.
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Should Ultima be invited?
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I don't really think he would come.
But you can try.
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Wasn't talking about objects or size.
A infinitely small fraction of 5D power will always still be 5D and thus Low 1-C, in the same vain any fraction of 3D power would be infinitely above the 2D. At least in this case.
And I'm not saying this in the vain of "well it's 5D so it must be Low 1-C", we're talking about a power that has demonstrably shown that to be the case (assuming the OP is legit and you accept it, me personally I aint touching it, but for arguments sake), and in that case, no matter how small a fraction he gets, shit will always be > 2-A and below.
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Dude's all ignoring also:
- Giygas tanking hits from Player
- Ness being able to harm Giygas
- Ness and Dark Dragon sharing the same power source and thus being relative in power.
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No it won't, I already explained it.
In order to qualify to be "> 2-A and below" it needs to fit the criteria of being non-insignificant size.
Since you don't seem to know much about how this works, we have an FAQ page you can read here.
Tiering System FAQ
A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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Didn't ignore it.
Someone taking 4-5 hits from someone else before going down is not really a very solid argument.
And sharing the same power source =/= being able to output the same power
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"This 5D power source that is infinitely above everything below it, and is allegedly low 1-C, despite only gaining a fraction of that power, Ness wouldn't be the same tier because food analogy that completely foregoes the surrounding context and makes the assumption that doesn't even work contextually".
Yes, I stand by what I said, and given we aren't talking about geometric sizes and masses, that's moot.
Yeah no shit you'd be arguing I don't understand that, given it seems we're arguing two completely different things here. I specified power, a finite fraction of demonstrably 5D power that is infinite in scope will always be Low 1-C.
As said, in the same vain a 2D being that took an infinitely small fraction of say, a snail's KE, that absorbed energy will always be infinitely above 2D in power (unless you're about to argue that wouldn't be the case, even though that's objectively false). Same here, it being 5D doesn't magically change that if it's a quantifiably demonstrable amount of Low 1-C power.
If that's true why is this even an argument? Taking a hit from 2-A/Low 1-C will always be that tier, just to a lower extent. Whether Giygas died in the end doesn't matter, he still took the hits.
Yes, I stand by what I said, and given we aren't talking about geometric sizes and masses, that's moot.
Yeah no shit you'd be arguing I don't understand that, given it seems we're arguing two completely different things here. I specified power, a finite fraction of demonstrably 5D power that is infinite in scope will always be Low 1-C.
As said, in the same vain a 2D being that took an infinitely small fraction of say, a snail's KE, that absorbed energy will always be infinitely above 2D in power (unless you're about to argue that wouldn't be the case, even though that's objectively false). Same here, it being 5D doesn't magically change that if it's a quantifiably demonstrable amount of Low 1-C power.
If that's true why is this even an argument? Taking a hit from 2-A/Low 1-C will always be that tier, just to a lower extent. Whether Giygas died in the end doesn't matter, he still took the hits.
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That's like, so not how it works, is the argument here.
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Uh, yes it does? If a Low 1-C took like five hits to kill you, you'd be whatever tier they are, just way lower. Unless you're about to argue that The Player was holding back an infinite amount.
If it took a Tier 7-B like five hits against a character, and said character took the first few, though was eventually defeated after the five successive hits, you wouldn't go "well shit, that character must be infinitely below that 7-B", no, you'd just go "well they obviously aren't as strong, but the fact they did indeed survive multiple attacks from that 7-B is at least telling of their power, they're obviously not quite up there but definitely within the same general ballpark, even if explicitly quite a bit lower". Probably wouldn't be flatout 7-B, but you get my point.
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Just a heads of, fraction doesn't always mean percentage or numeral fraction; even IRL, there a theories that humans are given a fraction of a higher power's power but that doesn't make us Tier 2/1/0. But we should avoid that topic. Was trying to explain from a scientific theory perspective.
Though, in Magicant's context, he was literally summoned in the Magicant and various 5-D beings appeared in Ness' Magicant including some of the "People who worked on the game." So I personally see hints of 5-D stuff.
That being said, they brought up good points about Giygas that the Player takes several hits to kill Giygas. So Giygas should be likely Low 1-C in durability. And it's speculative if "All existence" includes the real world or not, but I think Likely Low 1-C for Giygas is uncontroversial. And thus Ness's durability. But speaking of which, I find it weird that absorbing some 5-D powers would given him the durability of a 5-D power but not so much the AP. I sort of agree his reason for Tier 1 is shaky or appears to have some circular reasoning behind it. As Ness "Hurting Giygas" isn't actually traditional damaging. It's impossible for Ness to actually kill Giygas and Giygas always heals instantly every time Ness or other party members use physical and/or PK attacks. Only Paula's prayers can actually hurt Giygas. The other way is to poison Giygas with an item, but this is a game glitch not to be take seriously.
But anyway, I'm still over leaning towards likely Tier 1 Ness being fine, but reasons were explained better on VC. But I personally do not have hard feelings. But his durability and Giygas's tier should still be good where they are at. Explanations about Ness and Dark Dragon being derived from the same power source that makes them Tier 1 also kind of make sense; even if Dark Dragon seems to have more of it. Before anyone argues it being arbitrary for someone to be Tier 1 via absorbing powers from the Earth, I just need to point it it isn't that much more arbitrary than someone becoming 2-A via absorbing powers from an unknown number of stars. They both break logic in the same context.
Though, in Magicant's context, he was literally summoned in the Magicant and various 5-D beings appeared in Ness' Magicant including some of the "People who worked on the game." So I personally see hints of 5-D stuff.
That being said, they brought up good points about Giygas that the Player takes several hits to kill Giygas. So Giygas should be likely Low 1-C in durability. And it's speculative if "All existence" includes the real world or not, but I think Likely Low 1-C for Giygas is uncontroversial. And thus Ness's durability. But speaking of which, I find it weird that absorbing some 5-D powers would given him the durability of a 5-D power but not so much the AP. I sort of agree his reason for Tier 1 is shaky or appears to have some circular reasoning behind it. As Ness "Hurting Giygas" isn't actually traditional damaging. It's impossible for Ness to actually kill Giygas and Giygas always heals instantly every time Ness or other party members use physical and/or PK attacks. Only Paula's prayers can actually hurt Giygas. The other way is to poison Giygas with an item, but this is a game glitch not to be take seriously.
But anyway, I'm still over leaning towards likely Tier 1 Ness being fine, but reasons were explained better on VC. But I personally do not have hard feelings. But his durability and Giygas's tier should still be good where they are at. Explanations about Ness and Dark Dragon being derived from the same power source that makes them Tier 1 also kind of make sense; even if Dark Dragon seems to have more of it. Before anyone argues it being arbitrary for someone to be Tier 1 via absorbing powers from the Earth, I just need to point it it isn't that much more arbitrary than someone becoming 2-A via absorbing powers from an unknown number of stars. They both break logic in the same context.
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Ok but, there's absolutely zero evidence towards that (and obviously we shouldnt get into that, for obvious reasons).
Here we explicitly know that to be the case.
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So, I have an issue with the multiverse being accepted as 2-A. For one, the explanation given in the manga would only warrant 2-B, a possible alternate universe for every possible outcome or decision would still be a finite number, even if it kept branching out infinitely as the manga states. If you doubled the number two every second and repeated that process infinitely it would still not reach infinity. Furthermore, the manga is referred to as official, but official =/= canon. The DBZ movies are official but they are not canon to the manga, what exactly makes this manga a definitive part of the canon?
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I think we already went over that detail; the first part of the statement would inply inflationary, but the second half outright states that there's an Infinite number of "Parallel Universes that currently exist". It's just an Infinite number of times we see "Infinity + 1" and thus just an oxymoron way of saying 2-A as opposed to 2-B.
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For the love of my pet cat and we stop making ******* DB analogies?
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So would absorbing a portion of 5-D power on a 3-D being make that person still 3-D? Because your examples fall under Infinite 3-D, which is a massive issue. This isn't someone eating a part of something or walking a part of something, this is removing a part of infinite to have it for yourself.
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Yes Seol, because a movie that has clear continuity errors vs a manga that's meant to give us more context on the game is CLEARLY a valid comparison.
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I am like 99% sure the zelda manga is treated as a secondary canon on this site.
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So does the concept of continuity just go over your head, yes or no. Pokemon Adventures is an entirely different continuity, but canon. You realize the EB Manga is meant to give us extra story for what's happening in the game itself due to little dialogue when you're just fighting enemies.
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Itoi literally approved it as an expanded lore/cosmology in an interview.
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I don't see how the manga is relevant at all right now, the problem that people have is with the fractional scaling to Low 1-C. The 2-A cosmology provided by the manga would have no impact on this.
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Low 1-C so far is absorbing truth + giygas taking multiple hits from the player. For reference this is after taking hits from the prayers of all the people in the main universe and even those not being enough to stop him so they summon the player to defeat him. While DDM is right that Ness can't "harm" Giygas in the conventional sense he can still slightly harm him and can tank hits from him long enough to protect him and his friends while Paula does the prayer.
If anything likely Low 1-C seems fine here even if you want to axe the fraction of truth part.
Neutral on the same power source as the dragon bit.
If anything likely Low 1-C seems fine here even if you want to axe the fraction of truth part.
Neutral on the same power source as the dragon bit.
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Uhm, Pokémon Manga was discussed a whole lot and in the end it was decided that is canon.
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I'm just going to repost this scan from the OP to give clarification. Giygas takes four prayers from the Player before he finally dies, meaning he tanked three of them, and mind you this is after he had been gravely wounded by the prayers of humanity. If he was any lower than tier 1, he would have been instantly vaporized by the first prayer that the Player sent. And as was pointed out before, it would be absolutely ridiculous and ungrounded to believe that the Player was somehow holding back.
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What? This goes against the very fundamental basis of how your wiki works. There aren't any comparisons to be made here either that would be in line with the non-viable examples on the Powerscaling page. He tanks multiple hits from a Low 1-C before dying, he scales durability-wise at least. Sure, he's not on the exact same level as the Player, but that's not the point of the argument at all. Even the most inexperienced powerscalers know this is just basic scaling.
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What's now that some basic power scaling isn't valid for Earthbound lol
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Giygas "tanking" hits from the player is very weird argument for this. The player never once attacks Giygas in any sort of way all they do is literally pray and that act itself damages Giygas. Giygas never tanks any punches or blasts, or any sort of AP quantifiable thing to be used as a proper feat.
Even other normal character's prayers do damage to Giygas, so it's not something exclusive to the player anyway.
Even other normal character's prayers do damage to Giygas, so it's not something exclusive to the player anyway.
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The other Characters at best could destabilize a bit his defences, but nothing too impressive which could change the situation, while Player instead was decisive.
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So what? It's prayers are just better, it still doesn't scale to AP in any quantifiable way. Player never attacks, just prays. It's still the act of praying that's doing the damage, not the player's own AP or hax or anything.
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Nobody made the argument that sending prayers is something exclusive to the Player, the important part is that their prayers are what actually finished Giygas off, when even the combined prayers from everyone on Earth could only wound him. If it were not for the Player, the battle would have been decided the moment that Paula ran out of people to pray to. Also, I don't see how regular people praying debunks the Player's prayers having Low 1-C potency, Giygas is evil itself so of course he is going to be damaged by the positive energy of the prayers. The prayers are made from the concern and love that the other characters have for the chosen four, that goes against the very nature of Giygas. I don't see why the Player's prayers would be infinitely weaker than their normal abilities either, it doesn't matter if it's not a conventional attack, the Player is still using prayer as a medium to damage Giygas.
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I'm going to be honest in that it really feels like people are flinging mud at the wall and hoping it sticks. It feels like every twenty replies we're either recycling the exact same arguments or just coming up with new ones to deny Ness and Giygas scaling to Low 1-C.
Hell, we're at a point right now where we're arguing offensive methods from a Low 1-C are going to be infinitely inferior when they're trying to stop an evil god from destroying the universe, come on.
Hell, we're at a point right now where we're arguing offensive methods from a Low 1-C are going to be infinitely inferior when they're trying to stop an evil god from destroying the universe, come on.
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It just debunks that Giygas doesn't scale to the player/Low 1-C as they never tanked anything for the player, just the prayers which everyone can do. There's nothing to scale to Low 1-C here.
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Second point is already out of the table, it seems, so, might as well tackle the other two.
For the matter, I disagree with 2-A here. The scan itself already states that worlds are constantly being born out of different possibilities and variables in the main reality, and so, unless you assume the Mother universe has no beginning, that would default to 2-B, and the only thing that could possibly make this 2-A would be an explicit indication of there being an infinite amount of timelines in spite of their branching being a continuous process. The use of the word "infinitely" doesn't really point towards this, either, especially since it doesn't always have to refer to the "infinitie-th" element of a sequence; a quick search on online dictionaries should tell you this.
Why, exactly? I would understand reaching this conclusion if dimensional travel was already established as an element of the game, or as something that Porky was doing prior to it, but I take it that, if it was, the evidence would be a lot more explicit, no? Otherwise, "all times and spaces" is a really vague description and could indeed easily refer to other sections of the timeline, especially since they use the term "era" in the same context, from the looks of it.
If the manga justifies any potential differences by saying its events just take place in one of those alternate timelines, then I suppose it'd be fine to use the statement. Not if there is nothing remotely suggesting this, though, since, even if it already establishes the existence of parallel timelines, those would still only exist in the context of the manga, which is meaningless for scaling purpose if it simply doesn't relate to the main canon of the games.
For the matter, I disagree with 2-A here. The scan itself already states that worlds are constantly being born out of different possibilities and variables in the main reality, and so, unless you assume the Mother universe has no beginning, that would default to 2-B, and the only thing that could possibly make this 2-A would be an explicit indication of there being an infinite amount of timelines in spite of their branching being a continuous process. The use of the word "infinitely" doesn't really point towards this, either, especially since it doesn't always have to refer to the "infinitie-th" element of a sequence; a quick search on online dictionaries should tell you this.
I am neutral on whether or not the Real World is considered Low 1-C, overall, but this does seem like a bit of a contradiction on your part, given how you also propose Giygas and Ness to be Low 1-C by virtue of somewhat scaling to the Real World in the first place (And someone up there even pointed out that Giygas scales specifically because he could endure several attacks from The Player before finally dying), and yet you use The Player defeating him as evidence for it being infinitely superior to the game world (Which, supposing Low 1-C is valid, would involve an uncountably infinite difference, mind you)?
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The conclusion was reached because having all three games take place in one timeline would cause some inconsistencies in the plot as I described in that section. The absence of Ness and the fact that he doesn't possess the abilities of the Dark Dragon would have no explanation otherwise. And before you ask, having the abilities of the Dark Dragon would be a consequence of embodying everything in the universe, unless we are to say that the Dark Dragon is transcendental of its universe, in which there is nothing to indicate this.
Giygas does take a couple of prayers from the Player, yes, though ultimately I still use this as a supporting piece of evidence for the real world being transcendent because even though Giygas is able to endure a few of them, the Player still demonstrates that they are immensely superior by being the only thing capable of destroying him, Giygas is still fodderized even if it takes more than one hit to do so. Also, even if characters like Ness and Giygas are seen as fiction, I don't see why they can't still have power on a higher scale anyway. The Dark Dragon even directly demonstrates this, as it is actually superior to the Player despite being fictional from their perspective.
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^I would also like to bring attention to this point as well regarding Level 1.
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