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Has a nice ring to it
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Major EarthBound Revisions Part I: Cosmology and Stat Revisions
- Thread starter VileShadows
- Start date
- Status
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- Thread starter
- #362
Give me your address
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Let's please try to stay on topic guys. Anyway DatOneWeeb did bring a good point that the "He didn't attack Giygas, he defeated him with Prayers" is kind of counter intuitive statement. That would imply the character who is Low 1-C via existing above the multiverse cannot destroy him on his own. Which would be a feat for Giygas.
But anyway, I still think Vile makes sense here. I hear there are other plans in part 2, but for the time being; the stuff concluded is ToTU, Player, and Dark Dragon have solid Tier 1 ratings. But the Ness and Giygas can go back to Low 2-C? Unless there was other stuff brought up; I wasn't quite sure what StarSprite was trying to argue and seemed to ne unearthing things rejected.
Edit: Also, I think QuirkyBoy's analysis also holds up a solid deal tbh.
But anyway, I still think Vile makes sense here. I hear there are other plans in part 2, but for the time being; the stuff concluded is ToTU, Player, and Dark Dragon have solid Tier 1 ratings. But the Ness and Giygas can go back to Low 2-C? Unless there was other stuff brought up; I wasn't quite sure what StarSprite was trying to argue and seemed to ne unearthing things rejected.
Edit: Also, I think QuirkyBoy's analysis also holds up a solid deal tbh.
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At the very least add a possibly.
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I'd say to make "Low 2-C, possibly Low 1-C" as a placeholder for Ness/Giygas until Part II tbh.
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Note: For the first thing Seol said, I asked a certain friend who has helped us reach this far.
There is nothing dishonest about the claims given, dishonesty is when you use falsified evidence or claims to sharpen your source, if you're attempting to say these are forged, by all means show the proof or else that isn't the case. This isn't remotely dishonest, you attempted to take it in that light.
This is completely irrelevant to what I sent, you're literally admitting here you engaged in said behavior trying to say "well x also did it" does not help your case whatsoever unless you can show proof in my comment I said DatOneWeeb did anything good regarding this issue, you brought up an irrelevant point to try and make it look like you're being attacked.
That's not an attack on character, I don't know where this came from, this is merely pointing out an issue with you very clearly being completley and utterly unjustified in your comments there if you're going to try and reply "oh well datoneweeb was doing the same" you're missing the point. I don't care if you agree or disagree with the upgrades I specifically commented on your attitude, not you disagreeing.
(P.S. This is not from Quirky, this is from an unbiased party who saw you use completely incorrect terms)
Now that our special friend made their points made across (thanks a bunch by the way), this is where I get to do the talking.
Yes, you’d be correct in that the prayers of Humanity hurt Giygas, because they literally go against the nature of his being. We’ve been saying that this entire time. I fail to understand what the problem here is. Once again, The Player dealt an immense amount of damage to Giygas that obliterated him when the previous prayers couldn’t. The Players prayers deal far more damage than the previous prayers. Again, what is the issue here? They scale to Giygas’s durability, simple as that.
There is nothing dishonest about the claims given, dishonesty is when you use falsified evidence or claims to sharpen your source, if you're attempting to say these are forged, by all means show the proof or else that isn't the case. This isn't remotely dishonest, you attempted to take it in that light.
This is completely irrelevant to what I sent, you're literally admitting here you engaged in said behavior trying to say "well x also did it" does not help your case whatsoever unless you can show proof in my comment I said DatOneWeeb did anything good regarding this issue, you brought up an irrelevant point to try and make it look like you're being attacked.
That's not an attack on character, I don't know where this came from, this is merely pointing out an issue with you very clearly being completley and utterly unjustified in your comments there if you're going to try and reply "oh well datoneweeb was doing the same" you're missing the point. I don't care if you agree or disagree with the upgrades I specifically commented on your attitude, not you disagreeing.
I'll bring it up since you blatantly misrepresented what I tried to say and ironically are doing the same exact thing you're accusing me for.
(P.S. This is not from Quirky, this is from an unbiased party who saw you use completely incorrect terms)
Now that our special friend made their points made across (thanks a bunch by the way), this is where I get to do the talking.
What are you even talking about? What actions do you even speak of at all when the only “action” I brought was The Prayers of humanity and The Player. Which, everyone should know, is an action we very clearly and blatantly see in game. So please, could you care to elaborate?
Yes, you’d be correct in that the prayers of Humanity hurt Giygas, because they literally go against the nature of his being. We’ve been saying that this entire time. I fail to understand what the problem here is. Once again, The Player dealt an immense amount of damage to Giygas that obliterated him when the previous prayers couldn’t. The Players prayers deal far more damage than the previous prayers. Again, what is the issue here? They scale to Giygas’s durability, simple as that.
I’m not going to repeat Blaze’s arguements since he has brought up pretty good points. I should mention however that The Player has demonstrated other abilities such as creating an avatar to interact with the people in Mother 3. So you’d think maybe they would use something like that against Giygas, but no, they rely on praying to eradicate Giygas.
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Like I said before, I absolutely have 0 issues with applying “Low 2-C, possibly Low 1-C” as I would think this would help solve the issues people may take with the absorption feat and what not. DDM and the supporters seems to agree with this idea. It would make most sense after all
Although I personally would prefer to keep things the way they are now
And now I’m going to sleep, please don’t bombard this thread for my sake and the supporters
And now I’m going to sleep, please don’t bombard this thread for my sake and the supporters
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2 pages worth of debating with things being concluded at the time was too good to be true.
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This wasn't done with the sole intent to make you look bad, you should know that. It's to cover how you're massively mishandling this thread, even though you're a staff member that is meant to represent the best of this site.
That means absolutely nothing. Just because someone else did it doesn't demean the fact you engaged in this toxic behavior. This is a blatantly bad tactic to alleviate the scrutiny you're being given right now. No one is saying Weeb would even be in the right either, that's very presumptuous of you.
Nobody is attacking your character here. All that's happening is that they're questioning your remarks. Disagreeing with the upgrade isn't the problem either; it's your superfluously overbearing attitude toward the supporters on this thread. Shifting the narrative by playing the victim card isn't helpful here.
That's not how this works. You don't get to go to a private Discord to polarize mentality about why the thread is wrong, get called out on it when a screenshot is sent, and try to suppress something because it doesn't put you in a good light. You shouldn't be making such remarks if you don't even have the spine to defend it.
The only reason I continue a response to this is how you've acted this entire thread is so easily characterized and understood by what you're sending in Discord chats. This is very deliberately undermining the integrity of this wiki and its moderation when you do things like this.
Anyway, I still agree with the supporters here, honestly. Giygas literally survives attacks from a Low 1-C, and the only counterpoint is a very unnecessary stipulation on their method of offense. There's literally no reason for it to be infinitely weaker to the degree that's being proposed. Considering that prayers are even a form of attack in-universe, that should be self-explanatory enough as to why it should scale.
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Why not go with this suggestion that DDM had agreed to? StrymULTRA had agreed to this as well.
There are still other users, like me, who are still arguing for Low 1-C to scale to Ness and Giygas. These points that have been brought up have yet to be properly refuted, so only Low 2-C shouldn't be the case here.
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Why ignoring my and quirk's points and his suggestion?
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It's still not excusable. On what planet is it acceptable to raid a thread (after it had been concluded, mind you) with a bunch of staff members out of spite because you can't handle certain characters getting upgraded? It's pathetic.
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I do not know. It depends on what the rest of our staff here think. What you suggest does seem to go against our site standards though.
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Specifically which site standard does it go against? This would be helpful.
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I don’t understand. What is it exactly about what I proposed go against the “site standards”? Could you elaborate?
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You don't find it the least bit suspicious that like 5 staff members who were previously uninterested in this thread all showed up simultaneously conveniently after the revisions were already applied? And, I'm sorry, but I still find such behavior to be extremely petty, even if it was conducted offsite. It's pretty telling of this community when this is the kind of behavior you see out of someone in a higher position on ANY platform.
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What DontTalk mentioned earlier.
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You are being paranoid, and he is still a Joke Battles wiki member. He has no extra authority to evaluate VSB threads. Also, didn't I send some notifications to staff members earlier, or do I misremember?
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There's a difference between mods slowly trickling into a thread (like what was happening before) and a bunch of them just showing up at once (some of which you didn't even ping). And like I said, everyone seemed to be pretty uninterested in this CRT prior to the revisions being accepted. But this is irrelevant now, I'm done arguing because I am extremely tired of dealing with this and just want this thread to reach a conclusion, whatever that may be.
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Actually, it is part of the job that even staff members with a neutral mind set should evaluate content revisions; and especially true if proposals are high tiered ones. While I can understand several of them misunderstanding text or others not having time or energy to read the whole thread, most of them have good intentions and have reason to be skeptical. In Seol's case, he's only a Joke Battles wiki Admin, not VSBW staff; though I see where the confusion comes from given he still has the tag for it. And while the way he expressed himself offsite was quite rude or for lack of better words slick; I agree it's kind of a d*** move, but it does not exactly violate any of the Offsite rules.
But anyway, I think it was best to go off what Strym's suggestion for now. Ness and Giygas getting a temporary downgrade back to Low 2-C I am fine with until he gives better context and clarification in the next part.
But anyway, I think it was best to go off what Strym's suggestion for now. Ness and Giygas getting a temporary downgrade back to Low 2-C I am fine with until he gives better context and clarification in the next part.
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Wasn't there going to be a compromise of "Low 2-C, possibly Low 1-C"
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I don’t exactly see how adding a “Low 2-C, possibly Low 1-C” rating for Ness and Giygas goes against what he said at all. It’s just a tiering that takes the lower end of Ness’s tier to scaling possibly the higher end of absorbing the TOTU + the other Low 1-C feats I had mentioned before.
Which again, have yet to be refuted.
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Well, the issue seems to be the assumption that using a Low 1-C being as a power source somehow automatically elevates another character to the same scale, even though all that they actually did was defeat a Low 2-C being, but I may misremember.
Anyway, just because a JBW staff member was unnecessarily rude outside of the wiki, that doesn't mean that the VSBW staff suddenly obey his orders in some kind of agenda of pure malevolent spite.
It is more likely that our staff either paid attention to the sudden changes, or were asked to evaluate this by other staff members, or both in combination.
To assume otherwise would be the kind of paranoid persecution complex that is currently spreading far too much toxicity in this community.
Anyway, just because a JBW staff member was unnecessarily rude outside of the wiki, that doesn't mean that the VSBW staff suddenly obey his orders in some kind of agenda of pure malevolent spite.
It is more likely that our staff either paid attention to the sudden changes, or were asked to evaluate this by other staff members, or both in combination.
To assume otherwise would be the kind of paranoid persecution complex that is currently spreading far too much toxicity in this community.
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What Ant said. Seriously, everyone needs to take it down a notch. It doesn't even affect the tier 1 rating at all, just whether it scales to two characters, calm down.
It you're too frustrated, take a few hours off the forum to cool down and come back with a clear head.
It you're too frustrated, take a few hours off the forum to cool down and come back with a clear head.
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Well, to basically summarize everything I had brought up
The Sea of Eden is a place deep within Ness’s subconsciousness that’s filled with said Low 1-C source. However, in order to unlock his true power, he has to fight off and destroy Giygas’s influences that had blocked off said Low 1-C entity from interacting with Ness. Defeating it allows Ness to touch The Truth of the Universe, which basically allowed him to absorb “The Power of the Earth” and all of Magicant to his heart. Now, someone had brought up before was another source of power that another Low 1-C entity within the verse uses to perform feats at that level. What this did was give Ness a ridiculous amp (20:32) that drastically increased his stats to an astronomically high level. TLDR: Ness absorbed The Power of the Earth, which allowed him to absorb Truth and Magicant to himself. In the case for Giygas, he was able to survive 3 hits from a Low 1-C entity while in a weakened state. And Ness was only able to slightly harm him in the beginning. Of course, absorbing Truth doesn’t mean it has the fullest extent of its attack potency, it just means it’d have said attack potency to a much lower degree.
As said previously, I think this is more than enough for it to warrant at least a “possibly Low 1-C” rating
The Sea of Eden is a place deep within Ness’s subconsciousness that’s filled with said Low 1-C source. However, in order to unlock his true power, he has to fight off and destroy Giygas’s influences that had blocked off said Low 1-C entity from interacting with Ness. Defeating it allows Ness to touch The Truth of the Universe, which basically allowed him to absorb “The Power of the Earth” and all of Magicant to his heart. Now, someone had brought up before was another source of power that another Low 1-C entity within the verse uses to perform feats at that level. What this did was give Ness a ridiculous amp (20:32) that drastically increased his stats to an astronomically high level. TLDR: Ness absorbed The Power of the Earth, which allowed him to absorb Truth and Magicant to himself. In the case for Giygas, he was able to survive 3 hits from a Low 1-C entity while in a weakened state. And Ness was only able to slightly harm him in the beginning. Of course, absorbing Truth doesn’t mean it has the fullest extent of its attack potency, it just means it’d have said attack potency to a much lower degree.
As said previously, I think this is more than enough for it to warrant at least a “possibly Low 1-C” rating
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Quirky Boy brings up a valid point that the Sea of Eden is mentioned being "Filled with the Truth of the Universe". Which is still not evidence of the entirety of him, but fraction or not implies not 1/Infinity of his power. But rather a significant portain. And it is true Giygas is already weakened when Player finished him, and it took multiple hits. I have nothing against possibly Low 1-C after Low 2-C. But I still have a feeling other staff members might show skepticism.
But I have to go to work now.
But I have to go to work now.
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Thank you very much DDM for your input, I appreciate the help greatly. Good luck with work now!
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Just what in the hell has been going on in this thread with all the derailment and accusations? Such attitude is not appreciated and if you're not calm enough to argue the points themselves but rather choose to focus your attention on flinging accusations and conspiracy stories of why this thread got on some people's radar who ultimately ended up disagreeing with some points they found fault in, then please just step away and come back when you're calm, or I'll have to ban people from this thread.
This is just a repeat of points already discussed before and rejected. There is nothing here that's sufficient enough to make a good case for even a possibly rating. The changes that Ogbunabali quoted above should simply be applied at this point. The thread is being needlessly dragged on.
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We shall wait until the staff involved have voiced their opinion and a decision has been agreed on.
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Sorry AKM, but your arguments were completely lackluster and you stopped responding to our points ages ago. Me, Quirky, Star, and Chariot had multiple arguments that you completely stopped responding to. I don't care if you're an admin, you cannot just go ahead and ignore points that like and simply say, "oh but these are just repeated arguments", despite the fact that we've already brought up more supporting evidence. The person who suggested Low 2-C quite literally prefers them to scale to Low 1-C.
Stated here.
Tl;dr for them scaling to Low 1-C. Ness absorbed the Sea of Eden, which contained a part of Truth, making him Low 1-C. Giygas survived attacks from The Player without getting one-shot, giving him Low 1-C durability. Should be noted neither Ness nor Giygas have any anti-feats.
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I assure you that we are very much so on topic. No one here is acting hostile at all if that’s what you are implying. Admittedly, Vile was indeed understandably frustrated with how things are being handled and conducted. But he has stepped off and most likely went to sleep. Aside from that, we are all calm and arguing appropriately.
Forgive me, but I absolutely will not accept this as an attempt to refute our points as it completely ignores everything that me and others had literally complied up together and argued on this thread. If you have a problem with what we’ve argued, then please just elaborate as to why our points are incorrect instead of relying on something that’s frankly barebones and doesn’t hold up much. Ironically enough, most of the points argued against us have been things that were reused and things we have refuted already
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I even summarized everything here in case you don’t want to scroll back up to what was contested and what not.
If you ask me, slapping a “possibly Low 1-C” makes it much more easier for everyone here.
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This was already rejected. You need to pay more attention to the thread. My "lackluster" argument that a portion of something on a higher tier doesn't translate to the exact same tier was seconded by almost all the staff members who came to give input.
Not enough. Ogbunabali already went into detail about this with context and even discarding that, not getting one-shot is never a good enough reason to scale. This was also explained in detail beforehand.
Unfortunately, there isn't any evidence strong enough that supports a tier 1 rating here, not even possibly. Possibly isn't some rating that can be slapped on any profile simply because there is a mild chance based on questionable leaps in logic and assumptions. It's something that is to be used scarcely and only in cases where it is backed up by a notably good enough probability and reliability.
Ogbunabali already gave his approval to the presented changes. Wok already disagrees with the first notion. Same with DontTalk. And Ultima only offered some input on the cosmology part. Even Medeus also gave his approval for the presented changes. So enough staff are already on board with this.
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AKM, WHY are the staff so powerful they can reject a CRT for a verse they don't even know????
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A fraction of a higher tier can be any tier even the same tier but on a lower extent, wait why i am repeating my self?just gonna paste this
Who says that?Ploz literally addressed you on that.
"Explained in detail"
"In detail"
if you talk about ogbun's points, vileshadow addressed them as well.(circular argument smh)
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