Cell Games Saga revisions (Dragon Ball Z)

[ArcaneAbyss]

Let's not forget, Gohan charged his KHH very quickly and was still holding back when it clashed with cell's, meaning Gohan himself would still downscale to 4b, unless they are also attributing the 47x boost to Gohan's Kamehameha too?. It again shows that Cell's Kamehameha was nothing special

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Early db is actually kinda odd, mostly due to Goku having not yet actually trained to properly control his ki, his ki control basically extends to kamehamehas, about it.
Later on in life, Goku can physically amp himself with ki, and is something the whole cast always inherently do.
At that point in DB, even the weakest ki attack would be above a standard punch, which is to say, yeah idk if that's exactly a flawless example. Examples do exist but not so sure about that one.

Secondly, a mere 2x gap in DBZ is enough to dust a mf, sending various examples or showings of "hey [attack] did more damage than [not attack]", isnt exactly an argument. Hell if said attack doesnt outright obliterate them we can safely say there isnt even a 2-3x gap based on how DB establishes stomp gaps, it's just how the verse works. Aka, going (wow a kamehameha crippled this dude, so they CAN be exponentially above the base stats", yeah in a normal verse, but DB is special and thinks Mike Tyson would vaporize you with a punch, let alone cripple you, these huge damage showings arent as big of a jump as one would think.

Thirdly, this doesnt tackle the issue of Gohan's kamehameha being anything but notable, and not even using even half his full power too (Which, we actually can conclude, based on the 17 statement saying one's ki would need to be 2x a foe's to nullify it, which is what Gohan's FP did to Cell's kamehameha that was previously overpowering his, it straight up ate it within 1 panel). Which is to say, Gohan absolutely scales to his dogwater 4-B kamehameha, the full power one would scale above him, but even then only twice over at best if we want to be generous, which something tells me we wont do given itd buff buu saga and instead we'd just go "higher".

Ninja'd

 

[CloverDragon03]

I wouldn’t be opposed to that, but why specifically 1/8th?

Well it just comes out to 1/8 via scaling

SSJ3 Goku > Solar Kamehameha

SSJ3 Goku = 4x SSJ2 Goku = 8x SSJ Goku

SSJ2 Goku > SSJ2 Kid Gohan > SSJ Goku

Therefore, SSJ2 Kid Gohan is less than 8x weaker than the Solar Kamehameha

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Well it just comes out to 1/8 via scaling

SSJ3 Goku > Solar Kamehameha

SSJ3 Goku = 4x SSJ2 Goku = 8x SSJ Goku

SSJ2 Goku > SSJ2 Kid Gohan > SSJ Goku

Therefore, SSJ2 Kid Gohan is less than 8x weaker than the Solar Kamehameha

See, that makes more sense than the 4-C bullshit.

 

[Chariot190]

Well it just comes out to 1/8 via scaling

SSJ3 Goku > Solar Kamehameha

SSJ3 Goku = 4x SSJ2 Goku = 8x SSJ Goku

SSJ2 Goku > SSJ2 Kid Gohan > SSJ Goku

Therefore, SSJ2 Kid Gohan is less than 8x weaker than the Solar Kamehameha

All this roundabout scaling just to conclude they arent 20000x weaker than their attacks as per common sense seems a bit wild ngl.

 

[Damage3245]

But Solar Kamehameha>SSJ2 strength

That scaling chain that Clover posted doesn't contradict that.


Anyway - heading off for now, I'm glad some people have cooled off now that there's this middleground option on the table. I'll work on the sandbox tomorrow.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Well it just comes out to 1/8 via scaling

SSJ3 Goku > Solar Kamehameha

SSJ3 Goku = 4x SSJ2 Goku = 8x SSJ Goku

SSJ2 Goku > SSJ2 Kid Gohan > SSJ Goku

Therefore, SSJ2 Kid Gohan is less than 8x weaker than the Solar Kamehameha

If Ssj2 Goku was above the Gohan that beat cell too, as was noted by Vegeta, wouldn't that include the KHH that killed cell? Vegeta made no distinction at all

 

[CloverDragon03]

If Ssj2 Goku was above the Gohan that beat cell too, as was noted by Vegeta, wouldn't that include the KHH that killed cell? Vegeta made no distinction at all

I’m not opposed to that myself depending on the wording used, but it also depends on what others think

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Yeah... A common weak spot...

He ended up scarring Vegeta's face.
If it was just the eyeball, you'd have a case, but the damage spread beyond the eyeball and caused bleeding.

 

[Ednaxel2]

If we're gonna have Gohan not downscale to his kamehameha in anyway we should probably add a note in the profile listing the reasoning or examples for that. Also if we're gonna go by this change other profiles should also be updated profiles like this other profiles (Buu, Goku & Vegeta) like this:
Tier, Solar System level with Kamehameha and Spirit Bomb

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

He ended up scarring Vegeta's face.
If it was just the eyeball, you'd have a case, but the damage spread beyond the eyeball and caused bleeding.

To be fair, isn't Saiyan Saga Great Ape Vegeta somewhat weakened due to all the damage he took in Base as well as using a substantial amount of Ki to even create the Power Ball?

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

This KT ass example

 

[Ednaxel2]

I'll get two examples of the chain scaling, including downscaling from ss3 and without

 

[CloverDragon03]

He ended up scarring Vegeta's face.
If it was just the eyeball, you'd have a case, but the damage spread beyond the eyeball and caused bleeding.

Vegeta's saying he scarred his face... Because he blasted his eye. His eye is a part of his face...

And all the blood's in the eye area, with some trickling down from it as blood normally does...

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

I’m not opposed to that myself depending on the wording used, but it also depends on what others think

I mean, it was a pretty blatant blanket statement, trying to seperate Gohan from his KHH that beat cell would need some evidence

 

[Padaruyos]

Back in the Red Ribbon Army arc, Goku couldn’t damage Major Metallitron’s body with standard attacks but then decapitated him with a Kamehameha, which definitely would’ve been a killing blow if MM weren’t a robot.

Doesn’t this show the technique can cause fatal damage to opponents in the same tier?

This one is a bit of an odd example given Goku hasn't mastered Ki control yet. He didn't amp his physical strength (or at least not to the same degree) with ki like his older self did.

I think a close comparison would be Naruto characters with their ninjutsus, they don't put as much Chakra into their physicals like their jutsus.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll get two examples of the chain scaling, including downscaling from ss3 and without

You can, but I am also preparing a sandbox for them which will go into more detail.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Unfortunately, Gohan's kamehameha that clashed with a 4-B attack, is a combination of genki debuffed, held back and not at all full power, not charged, crippled, and so on. It is anything but an exceptional kamehameha, if anything, it's one of the most nerfed showings of one in verse.

"The greatest and most powerful Kamehameha, produced from the power of Gohan's anger and the power of Goku, who had died and gone to the afterlife."
"The strongest Kamehameha in history goes into operation."
"...a heartbroken Gohan is encouraged by Goku in the afterlife, and in his Kamehameha struggle with Cell he puts forth his strongest power."
Clearly not "anything but exceptional.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

"The greatest and most powerful Kamehameha, produced from the power of Gohan's anger and the power of Goku, who had died and gone to the afterlife."
"The strongest Kamehameha in history goes into operation."

That literally doesn't change what he said, these statements can still be true while adhering to Chariot's statement.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Why did you cut out the last one?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Why did you cut out the last one?

I didn't, I clicked respond and that's what popped up.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

This one is a bit of an odd example given Goku hasn't mastered Ki control yet. He didn't amp his physical strength (or at least not to the same degree) with ki like his older self did.

I think a close comparison would be Naruto characters with their ninjutsus, they don't put as much Chakra into their physicals like their jutsus.

Disagree, because he is completely resistant to bullets as a kid while as an adult and supressed he gets scratched, so he was suppressed to below where he was as a kid, implying as a kid he had some level of like subconscious chi usage

 

[Chariot190]

"The greatest and most powerful Kamehameha, produced from the power of Gohan's anger and the power of Goku, who had died and gone to the afterlife."
"The strongest Kamehameha in history goes into operation."

Ok. Now prove it's talking about the Kamehameha output initially.

Except you cant, easily, the very scene contradicts that being the case.
Gohan's initial held back kamehameha, is a bit weaker than the kamehameha he's ******* clashing with dog. It literally CANT be the strongest, it isnt even the strongest one on panel.

Those scans are blatantly talking about when he, ya know, used his full power and totally obliterated Cell's 4-B kamehameha and Cell himself, THAT, is the strongest kamehameha in history at that point, because no shit it is, it doesnt need a statement for that to be true, it just objectively is.


These scans are useless, they dont change my point and only tell us what everybody already knew.
This doesnt change the fact the Gohan's attack at the start was held back and nerfed to shit and absolutely not magnitudes above him, yet this nerfed to shit attack, is STILL 4-B, while the FP version, is well over even Cell's.
Second one even uses the panel from when he goes full output. And as established, Goku giving power would do literally nothing unless he's somehow close to Cell and SSJ2 Gohan?

 

[Chariot190]

Oh and, btw, being given a speech doesnt change the fact he was subconsciously holding back, and not using even half his full power, a fact we're told AFTER his initial blast clashed with Cell's 4-B attack, ie, if youre arguing some sort of genki boost, it doesnt apply initially.

 

[Ednaxel2]

In the AP scaling chain blog I will include 2 tabbers for the Cell Games and Buu casts, 1 for physcials and the other for charged attacks. Here it is the first one without the SS3 downscaling

Spoiler: Physicals

Cell Games​

• Post-RoSaT Piccolo can fight off against a Cell Jr., who're comparable to Super Saiyan Trunks and Vegeta - 81.5140859464 Quettatons (Small Star level+)
• Super Saiyan Goku with 50% of his power alone surpasses his piers, even Trunks and Vegeta, is only weaker than Perfect Cell and Gohan - 163.028171893 Quettatons (Star level)
  • Base Goku is 1/50th his Super Saiyan self - 3.26056343786 Quettatons (Dwarf Star level)

Majin Buu Saga​

• Shin is superior to Piccolo, Pui Pui and Yakkon both terrified and are superior to Shin, Goku and Vegeta easily overpower them in Base alone. Gohan also believed he could beat Yakkon in base with Goku in the dark, his Cell Games self is touted many times as being superior - 81.5140859464 Quettatons (Small Star level+)
  • Super Saiyan Goku, Gohan and Vegeta are 50x base - 4075.70429732 Quettatons (Large Star level)
  • Super Saiyan 2 Goku, Gohan and Vegeta are 2x Super Saiyan - 8151.40859464 Quettatons (Large Star level)
  • Super Saiyan 3 Goku is 4x Super Saiyan 2 - 1.36425248446 Foe (Large Star level)

Fusion Saga​

• Base Gotenks is superior to Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta - 4075.70429732 Quettatons (Large Star level)
  • Super Saiyan Gotenks is 50x base - 8.52657802787 Foe (Large Star level)
• Post-RoSaT training Gotenks surpasses his previous Super Saiyan self - 8.52657802787 Foe (Large Star level)
  • Super Saiyan Gotenks is 50x base - 426.328901394 Foe (Solar System level)
  • Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is 8x Super Saiyan, Potential Unleashed Gohan is superior to both - 3.41063121115 KiloFoe (Solar System level)
• Super Buu is around the same level as Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, later absorbing him adding his power to his own, and later absorbs Gohan after Gotenks defuses inside him, becoming even stronger - 6.8212624223 KiloFoe (Solar System level)
• Base Vegito is superior to both Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Potential Unleashed Gohan - 3.41063121115 KiloFoe (Solar System level)
  • Super Saiyan Vegito is 50x stronger than his base self - 170.531560558 KiloFoe (Solar System level)

Beginning of Super (Manga)​

• As a Super Saiyan alone Goku believed he could take on Kid Buu, who his Super Saiyan 3 Buu Saga self couldn't defeat - 1.36425248446 Foe (Large Star level)
  • Base Goku is 1/50th Super Saiyan - 652.112687572 Quettatons (Large Star level)
  • Super Saiyan 2 Goku is 2x Super Saiyan - 2.72850496892 Quettatons (Large Star level)
  • Super Saiyan 3 Goku is 4x Super Saiyan 2 - 10.9140198757 Quettatons (Large Star level)

Spoiler: Charged Attacks

Cell Games​

• Super Perfect Cell threatened to destroy the Solar System from Earth with the Solar Kamehameha, Super Saiyan 2 Gohan overpowered him with his own Kamehameha - 1.053 KiloFoe (Solar System level)
  • Base Gohan is 1/100th his Super Saiyan 2 self - 10.53 Foe (Large Star level)
  • Super Saiyan Gohan is 50x base - 526.5 Foe (Solar System level)

Majin Buu Saga​

• Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Vegeta both surpass Super Saiyan 2 Gohan from the Cell Games - 1.053 KiloFoe (Solar System level)
  • Base Goku and Vegeta are 1/100th Super Saiyan 2 - 10.53 Foe (Large Star level)
  • Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta are 50x base - 526.5 Foe (Solar System level)
  • Super Saiyan 3 Goku is 4x Super Saiyan 2 - 4.212 KiloFoe (Solar System level)
• Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's power registered as being greater than Super Saiyan Goku - 526.5 Foe (Solar System level)
  • Base Gohan is 1/100th Super Saiyan 2 - 5.265 Foe (Large Star level)
  • Super Saiyan Gohan is 50x base, Dabura is comparable to him, Perfect Cell is equal to Dabura - 263.25 Foe (Solar System level)

Fusion Saga​

• Base Gotenks is superior to Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta - 1.053 KiloFoe (Solar System level)
  • Super Saiyan Gotenks is 50x base - 52.65 KiloFoe (Solar System level)
• Post-RoSaT training Gotenks surpasses his previous Super Saiyan self - 52.65 KiloFoe (Solar System level)
  • Super Saiyan Gotenks is 50x base - 2.6325 MegaFoe (Solar System level)
  • Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is 8x Super Saiyan, Potential Unleashed Gohan is superior to both - 21.06 MegaFoe (Solar System level)
• Super Buu is around the same level as Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, later absorbing him adding his power to his own, and later absorbs Gohan after Gotenks defuses inside him, becoming even stronger - 42.12 MegaFoe (Solar System level)
• Base Vegito is superior to both Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Potential Unleashed Gohan - 21.06 MegaFoe (Solar System level)
  • Super Saiyan Vegito is 50x stronger than his base self - 1.053 GigaFoe (Solar System level)

Beginning of Super (Manga)​

• As a Super Saiyan alone Goku believed he could take on Kid Buu, who his Super Saiyan 3 Buu Saga self couldn't defeat - 4.212 KiloFoe (Solar System level)
  • Base Goku is 1/50th Super Saiyan - 84.24 Foe (Solar System level)
  • Super Saiyan 2 Goku is 2x Super Saiyan - 8.424 KiloFoe (Solar System level)
  • Super Saiyan 3 Goku is 4x Super Saiyan 2 - 33.696 KiloFoe (Solar System level)

 

[Ednaxel2]

I'll stay neutral on this for now cause of reasons being outlined between different members

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

I mean if ya wanna take it at direct face value, yeah probably.

Anyway, i can think of numerous times mfs have tanked a kamehameha from someone on par, or hell, literally their own.

Case and point (not even the only time btw), i mean yeah a gap exists, but it aint as ludicrous as one thinks. Even the Special Beam Cannon, or Tribeam, attacks that, in regards to power spiking, eclipse a standard kamehameha, arent even as big a jump as what's being implicated here, bit odd no?

Idk about Cell, but Gohan's despondent sandbagging holding back explicitly not at all even using his full power and inversely has a genki debuff due to his fear and mental state ass should scale to his not at all properly charged crippled held back kamehameha.

That statement should solve the Kamehameha scaling to the Buu Saga. Unless anyone has any arguments on why the power Gohan showed against Cell wouldn’t be referring to his kamehameha.

 

[Deagonx]

There's nothing suggesting that the extent to which a charged attack can amplify someone beyond what they normally do is a fixed rate, so anyone trying to invalidate this by comparing it to other kamehamehas is missing the point.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

There's nothing suggesting that the extent to which a charged attack can amplify someone beyond what they normally do is a fixed rate, so anyone trying to invalidate this by comparing it to other kamehamehas is missing the point.

And also establishing a multiplier for this is against wiki standards

 

[Padaruyos]

Here's my take on this. Yes I do agree that Cell's KHH shouldn't scale to his physicals and such. But to put his physicals as low as 4-C is a bit much. You'd end up with Super Buu, SS3 Goku, Kid Buu, and Gotenks getting vaporized by Cell's Kamehameha.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Here's my take on this. Yes I do agree that Cell's KHH shouldn't scale to his physicals and such. But to put his physicals as low as 4-C is a bit much. You'd end up with Super Buu and Gotenks getting vaporized by Cell's Kamehameha.

Super Buu and SS3 Gotenks scale above the value by 3x

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Here's my take on this. Yes I do agree that Cell's KHH shouldn't scale to his physicals and such. But to put his physicals as low as 4-C is a bit much. You'd end up with Super Buu, SS3 Goku, Kid Buu, and Gotenks getting vaporized by Cell's Kamehameha.

Maybe there’s ways to powerscale this. Like, vegeta’s final explosion should be > that solar Kamehameha

 

[TimeTrapperFanBoy]

Who wants to bet this is gonna be 20 f****n pages by the time grace is over

Anywho I’m fine with the solar kamehameha being separate from SPCs standard power just as long as we don’t have it creeping FAR into the buu saga power tier. I prefer Ednaxels 2nd tabber.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

There's nothing suggesting that the extent to which a charged attack can amplify someone beyond what they normally do is a fixed rate, so anyone trying to invalidate this by comparing it to other kamehamehas is missing the point.

I’m referring to the statement when Vegeta and Goku charge up to SSJ2. Where Vegeta states that Goku’s stronger than the power Gohan showed back then in the Cell Saga.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Who wants to bet this is gonna be 20 f****n pages by the time grace is over

Low ballin

Anywho I’m fine with the solar kamehameha being separate from SPCs standard power just as long as we don’t have it creeping FAR into the buu saga power tier. I prefer Ednaxels 2nd tabber.

SS3 Gohan and Super Buu both outscale it

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

SS3 Gohan and Super Buu both outscale it

Not to clutter, but, what was the reasoning for this again?

 

[DivineAura44]

I think blud means Goku

 

[Ednaxel2]

Not to clutter, but, what was the reasoning for this again?

simply just scaling many times from the Frieza scaling

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Chariot absolutely shredding the argument apart

Ouch. That's some A-Class debating skills right there. Absolutely amazing.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Ouch. That's some A-Class debating skills right there. Absolutely amazing.

You could say one thing and he would respond with an essay on why you're wrong