Cell Games Saga revisions (Dragon Ball Z)

[SlendVeny]

Ouch. That's some A-Class debating skills right there. Absolutely amazing.

If I'm talking some shit and a guy hits me with the "mate, that shit isn't even accurate for a single panel," and he's RIGHT? I'd be going to sleep.

 

[Dalesean027]

Fully in agreeance with the points chariot has made here

 

[Shadyboi0]

Seconded.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Thirded

 

[Robo432343]

fourthed'ed

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

7 pages here, and still the side of the OP has not given a single reason why Cell's Kamehameha which is described as basic, and was being held back (albeit gradually winning) by quickly charged kamehameha from Gohan (which gohan would obviously downscale to) would get a higher boost than every other Kamehameha and even if it somehow amps more than other Kamehamehas for whatever strange reason

Gohan's Kamehameha would not out scale his own normal stats by that much,which means in the end, you'd still get 4b SPC and ssj2 Gohan.

All of this roundabout scaling with the Buu tiers to the point of even having to show that Buu arc higher tiers don't die to a basic Kamehameha from cell, all simply because for some arbitrary reason, cell's Kamehameha has been decided to have a boost that dwarves any other attack.

 

[Ednaxel2]

I'm sticking with disagree on this

 

[Damage3245]

7 pages here, and still the side of the OP has not given a single reason why Cell's Kamehameha which is described as basic, and was being held back (albeit gradually winning) by quickly charged kamehameha from Gohan (which gohan would obviously downscale to) would get a higher boost than every other Kamehameha and even if it somehow amps more than other Kamehamehas for whatever strange reason

Separating the statistics of Cell's Kamehameha from his ordinary statistics was already handled on the previous thread.

Gohan's Kamehameha would not out scale his own normal stats by that much,which means in the end, you'd still get 4b SPC and ssj2 Gohan.

All of this roundabout scaling with the Buu tiers to the point of even having to show that Buu arc higher tiers don't die to a basic Kamehameha from cell, all simply because for some arbitrary reason, cell's Kamehameha has been decided to have a boost that dwarves any other attack.

It's not that much roundabout scaling... In fact it produces even higher ratings for Cell and Gohan than just downscaling them from the calc.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think the fundamental issue Jaakor has was with the initial idea of them being 4-C, making the Solar Kamehameha thousands of times stronger, something which was definitely wholly unprecedented given that not even techniques that sacrifice the user's life give that much of an amp based on our scaling

 

[Damage3245]

I think the fundamental issue Jaakor has was with the initial idea of them being 4-C, making the Solar Kamehameha thousands of times stronger, something which was definitely wholly unprecedented given that not even techniques that sacrifice the user's life give that much of an amp based on our scaling

Fair - but the initial 4-C proposal was just the result of the existing scaling.

 

[KingTempest]

When we work through special attacks scaling higher, we're not saying "this technique is thousands of times higher because of the difference between tiers", it's just saying "there's no scaling between this person and this technique, so unfortunately this feat scales here"

This isn't the only verse where certain techniques scale on a whole different tier than their attacks. Not too long ago Android 17 was tier 3 with tier 2 barriers, infinitely stronger due to scaling but not actually measuring the gap as "infinitely stronger"

So this attempt to say "no there's no way it's thousands of times stronger", that's not the point of the thread

 

[Tyranno223]

There's a difference between a barrier technique which is exclusive to one character (who had this exclusivity changed mind you) and the Kamehameha which almost everyone on the team and over half the villains can use. It's unprecedented for the Kamehameha.

 

[KingTempest]

There's a difference between a barrier technique which is exclusive to one character (who had this exclusivity changed mind you) and the Kamehameha which almost everyone on the team and over half the villains can use. It's unprecedented for the Kamehameha.

You completely missed the point to levels I didn't know were possible

People can have moves calculated or scaled to extents far above their being without there being an in-canon gap in the capabilities being deduced from them

 

[Tyranno223]

You completely missed the point to levels I didn't know were possible

People can have moves calculated or scaled to extents far above their being without there being an in-canon gap in the capabilities being deduced from them

Bit savage but fair enough (though claiming a renamed Super Kamehameha is somehow a unique attack is... hmm).

Still, I believe Chariot's points remain true, Gohan at the very least should scale for only charging his Kamehameha for a few panels unlike Cell.

 

[SlendVeny]

When we work through special attacks scaling higher, we're not saying "this technique is thousands of times higher because of the difference between tiers", it's just saying "there's no scaling between this person and this technique, so unfortunately this feat scales here"

This isn't the only verse where certain techniques scale on a whole different tier than their attacks. Not too long ago Android 17 was tier 3 with tier 2 barriers, infinitely stronger due to scaling but not actually measuring the gap as "infinitely stronger"

So this attempt to say "no there's no way it's thousands of times stronger", that's not the point of the thread

Eh, this is barely a special attack, though. There's no other use of the Kamehameha having this much power, unless maybe you count the MAX Power Kamehameha, and that's a transformation on top of a technique. This isn't a special technique in comparison to other techniques. That said, sure, let's let Cell have the bonkers scaling, I don't really care about that.

Now, here's the issue. We have full power SSJ2 Gohan scaling thousand of times below his injured, one-handed, half-ki, held-back, barely-charged Kamehameha, which held back Super Perfect Cell's charged "Solar Kamehameha," and he isn't even that good at using the Kamehameha. He's had access to it for less than a year, his technique isn't mystically so powerful that no one could never replicate that level of amplification ever again. I don't mean the "Father-Son Kamehameha," I don't care about that either. I mean the regular-ass one he did that Cell was barely superior to. His full power should not be so low that he's able to be effortlessly vaporized by his weaker, injured self, while held back, with a technique that's explicitly a weaker and inferior version of the regular technique.

Anyway, I guess this is gonna be said to be missing the point or something. So we're gonna have to go with the scaling, I suppose. If we do that, we should have to specifically note "4-B with Kamehameha, higher at full power, higher with two hands" or something.

 

[Damage3245]

Anyway, I guess this is gonna be said to be missing the point or something. So we're gonna have to go with the scaling, I suppose. If we do that, we should have to specifically note "4-B with Kamehameha, higher at full power, higher with two hands" or something.

The scaling isn't settled yet; there's another option where SSJ3 Goku scales to the Solar Kamehameha and this backscales to SSJ2 Gohan who would end up being 8 times weaker than the Solar Kamehameha normally (obviously his own Kamehameha is superior to it).

Just making sandboxes for these scaling chains and will then get staff to evaluate them.

 

[Dalesean027]

When we work through special attacks scaling higher, we're not saying "this technique is thousands of times higher because of the difference between tiers", it's just saying "there's no scaling between this person and this technique, so unfortunately this feat scales here"

Kinda disingenuous to say this in this case when this specifcally is a case where Gohan outright scales to 4-B so saying this in regards to this is legit kinda bs

That's unless im misunderstanding you but chariot put it as blatantly as can be

Ok. Now prove it's talking about the Kamehameha output initially.

Except you cant, easily, the very scene contradicts that being the case.
Gohan's initial held back kamehameha, is a bit weaker than the kamehameha he's ******* clashing with dog. It literally CANT be the strongest, it isnt even the strongest one on panel.

Those scans are blatantly talking about when he, ya know, used his full power and totally obliterated Cell's 4-B kamehameha and Cell himself, THAT, is the strongest kamehameha in history at that point, because no shit it is, it doesnt need a statement for that to be true, it just objectively is.


These scans are useless, they dont change my point and only tell us what everybody already knew.
This doesnt change the fact the Gohan's attack at the start was held back and nerfed to shit and absolutely not magnitudes above him, yet this nerfed to shit attack, is STILL 4-B, while the FP version, is well over even Cell's.
Second one even uses the panel from when he goes full output. And as established, Goku giving power would do literally nothing unless he's somehow close to Cell and SSJ2 Gohan?

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Separating the statistics of Cell's Kamehameha from his ordinary statistics was already handled on the previous thread.

I have ZERO issues with KHH scaling above cells normal stats, that's a given with the Kamehameha. It's the 4c to 4b I have issues with

It's not that much roundabout scaling... In fact it produces even higher ratings for Cell and Gohan than just downscaling them from the calc.

Let me ask you a question, Gohan's initial Kamehameha, the one that was charged in a single panel and further nerfed by him holding back,you also have take him from 4C to 4B?

I think the fundamental issue Jaakor has was with the initial idea of them being 4-C, making the Solar Kamehameha thousands of times stronger, something which was definitely wholly unprecedented given that not even techniques that sacrifice the user's life give that much of an amp based on our scaling

Exactly this, how basic Kamehameha from cell all of a sudden has this kind of power up, without any kind of foundation.l especially in light of Gohan's initial Kama being able to halt it for an extended period of time before the Father-Son KHH

When we work through special attacks scaling higher, we're not saying "this technique is thousands of times higher because of the difference between tiers", it's just saying "there's no scaling between this person and this technique, so unfortunately this feat scales here"

Except, you know...Gohan scales to his Kamehameha which halted Cell's? Meaning this thousands of times power up still ends up being thrown out in that route because cell certainly also scales to base Gohan? As Chariot explained thoroughly?

The scaling isn't settled yet; there's another option where SSJ3 Goku scales to the Solar Kamehameha and this backscales to SSJ2 Gohan who would end up being 8 times weaker than the Solar Kamehameha normally (obviously his own Kamehameha is superior to it).

Vegeta noted that ssj3 Goku was stronger than Gohan when he faced cell, and he personally witnesses Gohan's final KHH, even helped him, why would we not scale ssj2 Goku and majin Vegeta in the Buu above it?

 

[Damage3245]

@Jaakor48 Cell's Kamehameha wasn't basic, it was significantly charged (and it was only after he charged it that he claimed he had gathered enough Chi to blow away the Solar System) but the Kamehameha that Gohan fired was the Father-Son Kamehameha from the start - he just went all-out when Cell was distracted by Vegeta.

I don't have anything further to say about it right now; arguing about 4-C vs. 4-B scaling is better handled after I've completed and posted the sandboxes breaking down the scaling options and how the profiles will look after the revisions.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

So what, Gohan scales to the 1.053 KiloFoe, but Cell doesn't?

 

[BlastX]

Well given that Gohan's utterly pathetic initial Kamehameha managed to hold off Cell's Solar Kamehameha for some time before powering up and overpowering Cell to death...well yeah, read the rest of the thread dude.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Are we expecting to Cell to, at the very least, downscale for injuring an off-guard Gohan?

 

[Damage3245]

So what, Gohan scales to the 1.053 KiloFoe, but Cell doesn't?

Gohan won't be scaling to that figure.

 

[Dalesean027]

Gohan won't be scaling to that figure.

But he'll still be scaling to 4-B normally no?
Cause like its pretty blatant he should

Gohan's kamehameha being anything but notable, and not even using even half his full power too (Which, we actually can conclude, based on the 17 statement saying one's ki would need to be 2x a foe's to nullify it, which is what Gohan's FP did to Cell's kamehameha that was previously overpowering his, it straight up ate it within 1 panel). Which is to say, Gohan absolutely scales to his dogwater 4-B kamehameha, the full power one would scale above him, but even then only twice over at best if we want to be generous, which something tells me we wont do given itd buff buu saga and instead we'd just go "higher".

 

[Damage3245]

But he'll still be scaling to 4-B normally no?
Cause like its pretty blatant he should

Through the scaling suggestion brought up earlier in the thread, yes, just lower than the value for the Solar Kamehameha.

 

[Shadyboi0]

 

[Padaruyos]

SS2 Cell Saga Gohan would be 1/4th Solar Kamehameha then, because while SS2 Goku is stronger than Gohan, it should still be pretty close.

 

[Damage3245]

Since the thread is more or less agreed upon and accepted, and the only thing to do now is decide on the specifics of the ratings and justifications, I'll lock this thread until I'm ready to return to it and call for final evaluations.

Thanks everyone who has assisted with the thread so far.