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Cell Games Saga revisions (Dragon Ball Z)

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Damage3245

Damage3245

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This is a continuation of this thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/cell-is-getting-nerfed-dragon-ball.157345/

As agreed in that thread, the Solar Kamehameha performed by Cell would not scale to his ordinary statistics due to being a charged Kamehameha - and we have seen numerous times throughout the series how characters can build up energy for the Kamehameha to produce attacks far stronger than what they're normally capable of.

At the time of this revision the calcs and multiplier scaling chains meant that the relevant characters (Cell, Gohan, etc) would still be rated Solar System level even without Cell's Solar System-busting statement so they'd be rated as "4-B, higher with Kamehameha", but things have changed since then with a new Frieza calc being accepted, some new multipliers being added and others being removed.

So the profiles need updating to take this into account, and I believe we'd get:

Cell and Gohan in his Super Saiyan transformation will both be "At least Low 4-C" or "At least 4-C" for being superior to Goku as a Super Saiyan, they'll be "higher" than that as Super Perfect Cell and SSJ2 Gohan, and their charged Kamehameha's would be rated as 4-B.
 
Damage3245 said:
At the time of this revision the calcs and multiplier scaling chains meant that the relevant characters (Cell, Gohan, etc) would still be rated Solar System level even without Cell's Solar System-busting statement so they'd be rated as "4-B, higher with Kamehameha", but things have changed since then with a new Frieza calc being accepted, some new multipliers being added and others being removed.
Click to expand...
Can you elaborate on the bolded part?
 
Kamehamehas have never shown to take someone up a completely new era of power than what they could do before

Goku vs Piccolo for instance, piccolo took his Kamehameha, despite the fact that they were roughly on par power level wise and hurting each other just fine

The largest relative multiplier for the Kamehameha we've seen seen is 416 to 924, a 2.22x boost when used against raditz.

Against Frieza, Goku in KKx20 was at 60million, roughly the same as 50% Frieza, who survived his Kamehameha, although clearly was far more damaged than with Goku's normal attacks and admitted it was a close call for him, now assuming he didn't use 50% to block, the max he could go was 100%, that's still , at best, a 2x gap to survive thr Kamehameha (lesser than thr 2.2x in the raditz saga). Again nowhere near being worlds apart

Against cell, his instant Kamehameha blew his entire top off, as he was hit from point blank and was caught by surprise, but even then, the suppressed cell and Goku were almost even, again showing that there wasnt a gap of more than x2 to overcome

In all the cases, the Kamehameha packs a huge punch, scaling higher than the user's normal levels but not world's higher.

Cell's Solar Kamehameha is calced at about 47x baseline Solar system level, one would need extraordinary evidence to claim that the Kamehameha gave him a boost close to the level of a super saiyan transformation, when every use of this technique, both from canon power levels to canon gaps between characters doesn't have it bypass anywhere to that level

In conclusion, even downscaling from their SPC's KHH, you would still get solar system level for SPC and SSJ2 Gohan, which is.... exactly in line with how it's treated in the story, as scaling higher than their normal stats but not worlds apart

The scaling should be:
Perfect Cell and normal SSJ Gohan will both be "At least Low 4-C" or "At least 4-C" for being superior to Goku as a Super Saiyan. 4-B as Super Perfect Cell and SSJ2 Gohan and higher into 4-B with their Kamehamehas, with ssj2 Gohan full rage unleashed as even higher



If cell with Kamehameha was baseline 4-B then he would absolutely downscale imho
 
Jaakor48 said:
Goku vs Piccolo for instance, piccolo took his Kamehameha, despite the fact that they were roughly on par power level wise and hurting each other just fine

The largest relative multiplier for the Kamehameha we've seen seen is 416 to 924, a 2.22x boost when used against raditz.
Click to expand...

I'm not arguing that all Kamehameha be treated as an equal boost across all uses, so these examples are irrelevant to me.

Jaakor48 said:
Against Frieza, Goku in KKx20 was at 60million, roughly the same as 50% Frieza, who survived his Kamehameha, although clearly was far more damaged than with Goku's normal attacks and admitted it was a close call for him, now assuming he didn't use 50% to block, the max he could go was 100%, that's still , at best, a 2x gap to survive thr Kamehameha (lesser than thr 2.2x in the raditz saga). Again nowhere near being worlds apart
Click to expand...
This is a very rapidly charged Kamehameha from what I can see in these two pages. Cell's and Gohan's Kamehameha were charged with much greater energy than what Goku put into it here.

Jaakor48 said:
Against cell, his instant Kamehameha blew his entire top off, as he was hit from point blank and was caught by surprise, but even then, the suppressed cell and Goku were almost even, again showing that there wasnt a gap of more than x2 to overcome
Click to expand...
Why would being caught by surprise lower his durability? Cell was in the middle of combat with Goku so he wouldn't have been any lower than when he was tanking hits from Goku.

And still we can see the difference in him taking regular blasts from Goku and him getting his top half blasted off from a fully charged Kamehameha. It's incredibly stronger.

Jaakor48 said:
Cell's Solar Kamehameha is calced at about 47x baseline Solar system level, one would need extraordinary evidence to claim that the Kamehameha gave him a boost close to the level of a super saiyan transformation, when every use of this technique, both from canon power levels to canon gaps between characters doesn't have it bypass anywhere to that level
Click to expand...
I don't think I need any additional evidence for this. Characters have special attacks far higher than what they normally scale to is just a fact in Dragon Ball. I'm not arguing that all Kamehameha get some kind of consistent multiplier; just that Cell's attack here gets a rating that is different to his normal rating.
 
I don't understand where this idea of characters not escalating to your attack comes from, in fact, their energies are being used for the attack and all statistics must be given to ki users, every time a character increases his power level, his speed increases and so does his own destructive power, this fits perfectly with the energy system we have.

In fact, Cell himself mentions that "his ki" has the power to destroy the entire solar system, the energy used during the kamehameha is Cell's own energy, he is spending his own energy, so yes, he scales through his attack.



I don't know how this nonsense of Null got ahead, this is absurd, there is no such thing as characters not scaling their attacks, all attacks created through their own ki scale through energy itself.

Anyway, i disagree with this nonsense.
 
@LuffyRuffy46307 Sounds like you just didn't read the previous thread and you're deciding to ignore all of the evidence from the manga that frequently shows that a charged Kamehameha is much more powerful than the user's ordinary attacks. Characters having special attacks that have a different rating from their ordinary moves is nothing new or absurd.

Claiming that "Every attack that a character can do is equally strong because they all come from Ki" is what is absurd.
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
I don't understand where this idea of characters not escalating to your attack comes from, in fact, their energies are being used for the attack and all statistics must be given to ki users, every time a character increases his power level, his speed increases and so does his own destructive power, this fits perfectly with the energy system we have.

In fact, Cell himself mentions that "his ki" has the power to destroy the entire solar system, the energy used during the kamehameha is Cell's own energy, he is spending his own energy, so yes, he scales through his attack.



I don't know how this nonsense of Null got ahead, this is absurd, there is no such thing as characters not scaling their attacks, all attacks created through their own ki scale through energy itself.

Anyway, i disagree with this nonsense.
Click to expand...

The panel you sent for Cell goes against your argument and you’ve sent it out of context…
 
I mean correct me if I'm wrong here, but during the fight with Raditz wasn't it shown that Goku's level shot up when he fired off a charged Kamehameha? And the same thing goes for Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon as well? Because if so then I think the logic here makes sense.

@Damage3245 Does this affect Buu Saga scaling in anyway or would that still be 4-B, albeit to a lower degree now that Frieza's calc was downgraded?
 
Damage3245 said:
@LuffyRuffy46307 Sounds like you just didn't read the previous thread and you're deciding to ignore all of the evidence from the manga that frequently shows that a charged Kamehameha is much more powerful than the user's ordinary attacks. Characters having special attacks that have a different rating from their ordinary moves is nothing new or absurd.

Claiming that "Every attack that a character can do is equally strong because they all come from Ki" is what is absurd.
Click to expand...
I saw the other crt and I don't know how this nonsense was approved, not least because all attacks are generated by the user's own energy and no, being an attack carrying all your energy doesn't take away the fact that the power itself comes from ki and its statistics are amplified together.

I don't know what evidence, because you literally proved nothing with these absurdities, show me a mention where it is said? Because we don't see it anywhere in the work, you're just looking for a way to want to further debase your own understanding, and the work has never shown such evidence for that.
 
so how would this affect the Buu saga, would they also get downgraded to 4-C? or would they still scale to 4-B?
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
@Damage3245 Does this affect Buu Saga scaling in anyway or would that still be 4-B, albeit to a lower degree now that Frieza's calc was downgraded?
Click to expand...
Unsure; we'll have to get the characters into a sandbox and see how the later saga scaling works out. Null is currently working on a sandbox for the Cell Games Saga.
 
Damage3245 said:
Cell and Gohan in his Super Saiyan transformation will both be "At least Low 4-C" or "At least 4-C" for being superior to Goku as a Super Saiyan
Click to expand...
Wouldn't Gohan be Low 4-C+ in base for upscaling from Buu Saga Gohan, who is superior to post-RoSaT Piccolo?
 
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Vegeta’s Final Explosion scaling to around 4x? It’s kinda confusing because while Buu was mostly destroyed the fact that part of him survived the explosion at all means he wasn’t instantly vaporised, so I’m not sure if that caps the power of the Final Explosion to a certain level or not.

Anyway the reason I ask is because is there anything about the Final Explosion that makes it stronger than a Kamehameha, Galick Gun, Final Flash etc or was it just used because Vegeta thought he deserved death? Admittedly I haven’t watched the Buu saga yet, so I don’t actually know. If it is stronger in some way to those then I think that might be an interesting thing to bring up. I’m one of those people who thinks Cell and Gohan being potentially hundreds of times weaker than their Kamehamehas feels super weird, but admittedly I don’t have much of an argument against it so I’m kinda scrounging for scraps lol
 
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Greatsage13th said:
Point is, he said that before he gave the full charge. Essentially, he's just increasing the power of his Kamehameha beyond that point onwards wasn't he?
Click to expand...
When a character gives a statement for being able to destroy something, it's concievable that they're even more powerful than that. All we have to do is find a reasonable minimum that they can be.

Nobody denies that Cell could be actually stronger than the calc we have for him, so this wouldn't change anything.
 
I think SSJ2 Gohan and SPC should downscale to baseline 4-B instead. The gap between the solar system bust calc and baseline 4-B is 47x. That should be a large enough gap given the beam techniques we see in the series don't boost power that much, even something like Piccolo's special beam cannon is only 3x or so (scaling from Raditz's 3x stronger statement)

Vegeta's galick gun seems to be just 1.5x assuming Goku's KHH has no power boost of its own. Namek Goku's Spirit Bomb is 40x at best, and that's with external energy.
 
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Veronica said:
It doesn't matter, the attack as mentioned before is 47x above baseline SS level. So even if we go with 1/3 or 1/4 of their physical strength. It would still would be SS level.
Click to expand...
But still we don't know exactly know how strong the power boost is. 4-B baseline downscaling is the safest option imo.
 
Padaruyos said:
I think SSJ2 Gohan and SPC should downscale to baseline 4-B instead. The gap between the solar system bust calc and baseline 4-B is 47x. That should be a large enough gap given the beam techniques we see in the series don't boost power that much, even something like Piccolo's special beam cannon is only 3x or so (scaling from Raditz's 3x stronger statement)
Click to expand...
3x PL is not the same as 3x actual AP, the classic Farmer with a shotgun example makes that very clear
 
omegabronic said:
3x PL is not the same as 3x actual AP, the classic Farmer with a shotgun example makes that very clear
Click to expand...
Except the statement we use now says Raditz is 3x stronger than Goku, not just 3x power level, that's the reason it's even usable for scaling.
 
TheGatememer said:
From the scan you provided, it shows he was still in the stance, and wasn't charging his Kamehameha yet. Unless just being in the stance is equal to charging it or something
Click to expand...
That doesn't maky any sense. That "stance" is him charging his Kamehameha. He started charging it the previous chapter.
 
Padaruyos said:
I think SSJ2 Gohan and SPC should downscale to baseline 4-B instead. The gap between the solar system bust calc and baseline 4-B is 47x. That should be a large enough gap given the beam techniques we see in the series don't boost power that much, even something like Piccolo's special beam cannon is only 3x or so (scaling from Raditz's 3x stronger statement)

Vegeta's galick gun seems to be just 1.5x assuming Goku's KHH has no power boost of its own. Namek Goku's Spirit Bomb is 40x at best, and that's with external energy.
Click to expand...
This I dont know why ssj2 gohan and cell wouldn't downscale from there attack since the difference is big
 
Padaruyos said:
There's no actual ki being charged in Cell's hand in that scan. Weird.
Click to expand...
The Kamehameha is often not actually visible as being in the character's hand sometimes. Like when Goku has a fully charged Kamehameha here but it can't be seen.

Padaruyos said:
Anyways @Damage3245 what about just downscaling SPC level characters to baseline 4-B?
Click to expand...
I'm not in favor of that currently but I can compromise with that if more staff members agree with it.

Downscaling and upscaling oftentimes seems so arbitrary to me.
 
Would the buu lads scale to the Solar Kamehameha? Cause going by the current scaling, Gohan and Cell would downscale cause SSJ2 Gohan (Buu Saga) > SSJ Goku (Buu Saga)
 
Padaruyos said:
Namek Goku's Spirit Bomb is 40x at best, and that's with external energy.
Click to expand...
Is the Spirit Bomb a multiplier? I’m pretty sure the external energy is an additive boost, meaning a Cell saga Spirit Bomb could potentially either be a 1% boost or a 1,000,000x boost depending on how strong the external energy is (an obvious bit of hyperbole but still). While the Spirit Bomb should always be more powerful than the Kamehameha, since we don’t know how strong or weak a Cell saga Spirit Bomb is I don’t believe we can cap the Kamehameha to it.
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
Is the Spirit Bomb a multiplier? I’m pretty sure the external energy is an additive boost, meaning a Cell saga Spirit Bomb could potentially either be a 1% boost or a 1,000,000x boost depending on how strong the external energy is (an obvious bit of hyperbole but still). While the Spirit Bomb should always be more powerful than the Kamehameha, since we don’t know how strong or weak a Cell saga Spirit Bomb is I don’t believe we can cap the Kamehameha to it.
Click to expand...
My mistake yeah it should be additive. But considering it's Goku's most powerful technique by FAR in that point, the Kamehameha should be nowhere near as powerful as a Spirit Bomb which is 20-40x more powerful than Base Namek Goku, otherwise he'd just use an omega charged Kamehameha to attack Frieza. Actually he tried that and even with Kaioken x20 the Kamehameha still did less damage than the Spirit Bomb.
 
Padaruyos said:
My mistake yeah it should be additive. But considering it's Goku's most powerful technique by FAR in that point, the Kamehameha should be nowhere near as powerful as a Spirit Bomb which is 20-40x more powerful than Base Namek Goku, otherwise he'd just use an omega charged Kamehameha to attack Frieza. Actually he tried that and even with Kaioken x20 the Kamehameha still did less damage than the Spirit Bomb.
Click to expand...
I addressed this above but the Kaio-ken 20x Kamehameha was barely charged up at all when he used it against Frieza.

Veronica said:
Why are you not in favor of that? You think it should be higher than baseline or even lower?
Click to expand...

Currently I think it would be best to just scale Cell and Gohan from Goku, and rate the Solar Kamehameha separately.
 
Damage3245 said:
I addressed this above but the Kaio-ken 20x Kamehameha was barely charged up at all when he used it against Frieza
Click to expand...
Fair enough. But still it makes no sense for a standard long charged Kamehameha to be as powerful as a KKx20 Kamehameha (20x at least), or the Spirit Bomb. Closest comparison we have for a long charged Kamehameha is the Special Beam Cannon, which is around 3x, and comes with a much longer charge time than Cell's Kamehameha.
 
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