- 3,904
- 684
I think it's fine since it's upgrades are apart of this thread and the abilities added are not controversial and are blatantly shown.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Major EarthBound Revisions Part I: Cosmology and Stat Revisions
- Thread starter VileShadows
- Start date
- Status
- 31,648
- 34,701
Yeah, Starmen stuff is solid to me.
- 3,338
- 1,370
- 5,826
- 1,233
Ant, why did you switch Giygas's intelligence from Supergenius to Extraordinary? DDM agreed to it and no one opposed to it at all. What problems do you have with it?
- 16,175
- 12,707
May I ask why Giygas' durability is tier 7 for his first key? The only attacks he's exposed to are 8-B and his feat was done with psychic powers, which shouldn't scale to durability by default if I'm not mistaken.
- 15,474
- 7,188
Because he was completely unharmed from the main cast and there’s literally no reason why it shouldn’t be assumed that it’s scaled to his physicals, since is literally Thunder and Storm’s feat but way stronger.
- 16,175
- 12,707
Uh, neither of those are feats. Being unharmed by 8-B attacks is just higher into 8-B. And "there's literally no reason why it shouldn’t be assumed that it’s scaled to his physicals" doesn't work when it's done with psychic powers, you need to prove the opposite.
- 31,648
- 34,701
Giygas in his Gigue key had a 7-C Cloud dispersion calculation iirc.
- 16,175
- 12,707
Yes, and that's what his attack potency scales from, but I'm asking about Striking Strength and Durability. Since he fights nobody at his level and the 7-C feat is done with psychic powers, I don't see the argument for the scaling.
- 31,648
- 34,701
All he literally did is crash into the ground and the force of the crash formed said cloud. Don't know about striking strength beyond it just gives the same damage has his PK attacks, but it's definitely something that scales to durability. Furthermore, it is implied that "No force on Earth can even scratch him" so it's arguable that his durability is much higher.
- 15,474
- 7,188
Giegue was massively holding back to not one shot them tho. Like they don’t scale from his full AP, they don’t to the dura too, especially when anything in EB has AP = Durability, so dunno why Giygas should be an exception.
- 16,175
- 12,707
Wait, then why is that scaling to his attack potency at all? If it's done with that vehicle of his, why is the default assumption that he can inflict the same levels of damage? And "it gives the same damage" doesn't work, since he's holding back in the fight anyway.
- 16,175
- 12,707
Because they have feats for it, which Giegue doesn't.
- 15,602
- 22,923
Late (sorry 
) but I agree with the upgrades
) but I agree with the upgrades
- 15,474
- 7,188
Giegue tanking them effortlessly is a supporting feat for him having Dura = AP. Is just common sense, if he was holding back to not one shot them, and they can’t harm him, it’s more than reasonable that he’s immensely above them in all the stats, simple as that.
- 16,175
- 12,707
A supporting feat? Supporting what? Of course he's above them, nobody's arguing against that, but he has absolutely no tier 7 feats for most of his statistics. Your argument right now is "well most people in this verse have stats scale to each other and he is very strong so i think it's fine".
- 25,028
- 6,330
Wok did end up bringing up a good point on discord about Ness actually
What suggests that he has a significant portion of the Truth's power, or at least, significant enough to be Low 1-C?
Scaling to a powersource can get wonky easily, for example, the Warp's structure can go anywhere from 1-B to 1-A but Psykers inofthemselves aren't anywhere near that powerful, or a laptop isn't Tier 7 for extracting power from a nuclear power plant.
What suggests that he has a significant portion of the Truth's power, or at least, significant enough to be Low 1-C?
Scaling to a powersource can get wonky easily, for example, the Warp's structure can go anywhere from 1-B to 1-A but Psykers inofthemselves aren't anywhere near that powerful, or a laptop isn't Tier 7 for extracting power from a nuclear power plant.
- 15,474
- 7,188
You do know that him being a glass cannon contradicts Occam’s Razor right? You’re making Giygas an odd exception to this because dunno.
He has the power of the Earth like Dark Dragon, meaning that they aren’t far to the point to be beyond infinitely different in stats.
- 16,175
- 12,707
"The simplest explanation is the right one" doesn't work here because there's no explanation to begin with. Giygas' vehicle is what does the feat, from what DDM told me, so I see absolutely no reason Giegue should be tier 7 in ANY statistic. Should a bus driver be 9-B because they ran over someone once?
- 16,175
- 12,707
Isn't the Dark Dragon rated way higher than Ness, though? You can't say they're comparable when our scaling of the verse contradicts this
- 238
- 150
- Thread starter
- #223
Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't even an insignificant fraction of Low 1-C power still be Low 1-C? I'm not exactly sure how you could get to tier 2 by dividing power on a tier 1 scale. The idea is that a part of the Truth of the Universe exists in the Sea of Eden, which got absorbed alongside the rest of his Magicant when he awakened his true powers. He's much lower on the scaling chain due to only possessing a fraction obviously, which is why DarkDragonMedeus's compromise was to rate Ness and Giygas as "Likely Low 1-C".
- 15,474
- 7,188
I dunno from where that came from tbf
Way higher yes, but them sharing the same power source means that there’s not a uncountable infinite gap between them, and thus Ness can still downscale.
- 16,175
- 12,707
Not an argument. Giegue himself has no showings on that level unless DDM misunderstood. "All he literally did is crash into the ground and the force of the crash formed said cloud."
No it doesn't, not without showings. Again, this can lead to shit like random D&D sorcerers being tier 1 just cause they draw power from gods or whatever.
- 3,904
- 684
I'm going to be going to bed soon after this but let me cover a lot of these points.
I have no clue where DDM got he "crashed to the ground and formed a dark cloud" from. Giegue's mere appaerance onto the planet caused said clouds. For "why would this scale to his durability" PSI in verse is a universal energy source that characters can dish out and tank, "8-B for tanking Ninten's attacks" misunderstands the very context of the final boss fight and Maria's direct statement where she literally says no weapon or force can harm Giygas and that they must sing in order to beat him.
For the example you used, do they absorb said power structure and the portion they absorb is enough to fill an entire deeper subconscious layer that you absorb into your heart? If not then I need to know what a significant portion is in this case, I'd say Truth's would be significant especially since they did this to amp Ness for Giygas' upcoming battle which Giygas foresaw which is why he spearheaded his plan in the first place.
Dark Dragon isn't being used for scaling to Ness, I think Styrm's the only one here whose arguing that.
Last edited:
- 11,141
- 14,180
Not necessarily. Fiction, most of the time, doesn't follow the hard and fast rule that a fraction of infinity must be infinity, so we have be be flexible at times to accommodate logical scenarios. Like, Bulma isn't Low 2-C simply because she survived a slap from Beerus. Also, you can extract or use a finite portion from a power source that contains infinite power, like Android 18.
Strictly adhering to that kind of logic can cause wonky scaling between characters.
- 3,338
- 1,370
No idea why that comparison affects us. Using "but this verse can also get that" isn't an argument. A portion of infinite is still infinite, Ness has no anti-feats contradicting the scaling to begin with.
- 15,474
- 7,188
Its more that I use it to justify furthermore him being Low 1-C.
- 16,175
- 12,707
The "no weapon on earth" part was rejected since he isn't 7-A so that doesn't matter. Also is there any actual statements of PSI empowering the users? Cause non-PSI users like Jeff can keep up with the rest of the party just fine. "can dish out and tank" is an observation, not an absolute rule.
- 3,338
- 1,370
Using DBZ for powerscaling comparison is shit. Not only does that verse have explicit showings that they can hold back at such a level, but you know for a fact the Android's "infinite energy" relates to stamina/ki, not power.
- 15,474
- 7,188
People should seriously stop using DBZ when the Power levels are clearly not linear and thus are still finite in value despite even leading to Low 2-C potency
- 3,904
- 684
The no weapon on earth part was rejected for 7-A, what I'm bringing up is that your claim of "tanking hits from Ninten" completely misunderstands that Ninten literally cannot harm him. Jeff being able to keep up with them proves what exactly? That would just mean he scales to them. For one Ness uses PSI to attack an enemy, enemy tanks, enemy attacks Ness back with PSI, Ness tanks, Ness' physical attacks can harm said enemy and vice versa. I don't see what more is needed to be proven. Your last point also makes no sense, if we see PSI very clearly is not immeasurably above their physical stats why would we suddenly assume that Giygas' is now for this one part? Especially when he has no anti feats and the 8-Bs he fights can't even harm him.
- 16,175
- 12,707
I am fully aware that Giegue is ridicolously stronger than Ninten, but this by itself does not make for an argument for tier 7. Giegue could be 50 times stronger than Ninten and he'd still be tier 8.
Just because most PSI users are comparable to it physically doesn't mean all of them should be. I'm fine with a "possibly town level" rating for dura and ss but you can't give him a solid rating based solely on a common trend in the series. A trend that's only partially observed, anyway, as the Magypsies and George have no physical showings, unless you want to scale the Magypsies to Fassad.
- 3,338
- 1,370
Wait wait wait, why can't we simply say Giygas scales to his race, I doubt they just one-shot each other.
- 16,175
- 12,707
Why not? Besides, isn't Giegue special even for his race?
- 3,904
- 684
I never said being stupidly stronger then ninten is his reason for tier 7, strawman. I said that your claim that he can tank hits from Ninten implying Ninten harmed him was objectively false.
I mean if you can show a case where a PSI user isn't comparable to their PSI physically, and I mean an actual case where the PSI is shown to be far above their physicals I'd love to see it. It's unknown if George even has PSI Armor. So I don't even know why you brought him up, literally nothing is known about George other then he stole the races secret. Having "no physical showings" isn't even a refute for characters that aren't even on screen for much time + Magypsies total screen time is related to training the main cast. Give me actual examples of clear and direct fighter PSI users that have "no physical showings". Even if I was to accept this idea, Giygas and his race as far superior to anyone in PSI, so the PSI scaling to them physically should apply due to having far superior control and usage over their PSI.
- 238
- 150
- Thread starter
- #238
He is, which is why he's their leader. But we don't know how far above the other aliens Giygas is.
- 3,338
- 1,370
It'd be odd if they can just kill each other with a single hit, naturally any type of race and survive their own hits.
- 3,904
- 684
Giegue being special for his race would further soldify his durability. Again also you have literally no proof PSI doesn't scale to dura other then "oh well every living case imaginable isn't shown' which is ridiculous to ask for. I've fulfilled the buden of proof, now I require the burden from you.
- Status
