• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Major EarthBound Revisions Part I: Cosmology and Stat Revisions

Status
Not open for further replies.
Hi I'm back

I take issue with scaling ness to Low 1-C for just having a piece of a low 1-C thing. Why? Well, nothing says the piece itself is Low 1-C.

Here's an example. Let's say I have a cube. Nice, 3D object. Then I take a cross section of the cube, which is 2D. Is that cross section not still a piece of the cube? It's certainly a component part of the cube and was taken from the cube. Fits pretty much any definition of piece I know of. And yet, it wouldn't have the same "potency" as the whole thing.

As for some examples in other verses, let's bring up everyone's favorite 1-A every single 40k psyker. Every living thing in 40k is a very small part of the Warp in some way, and Psykers are fueled by the Warp for their powers. They're a piece of a 1-A structure, so why aren't they all 1-A? Simple. People are aware that not every piece of a 1-A structure is 1-A by necessity, and they have no 1-A feats.

I'm not sure why we should treat Earthbound any differently on that front.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
For the matter, I disagree with 2-A here. The scan itself already states that worlds are constantly being born out of different possibilities and variables in the main reality, and so, unless you assume the Mother universe has no beginning, that would default to 2-B, and the only thing that could possibly make this 2-A would be an explicit indication of there being an infinite amount of timelines in spite of their branching being a continuous process. The use of the word "infinitely" doesn't really point towards this, either, especially since it doesn't always have to refer to the "infinitie-th" element of a sequence; a quick search on online dictionaries should tell you this.
Click to expand...
Good point here. I read it as there's infinitely stacked up already, and they just keep expanding on that. But this makes sense as well. "At least 2-B, possibly 2-A" would be fine with me instead now, because I still think that's a valid interpretation.
 
VileShadows said:
Giygas is still fodderized even if it takes more than one hit to do so.
Click to expand...
Then why should it downscale to the Player? Specially when it's suppose to trascend everything. The only other thing to support it would be the Ness thing, but that's being contested too.
 
Wokistan said:
Here's an example. Let's say I have a cube. Nice, 3D object. Then I take a cross section of the cube, which is 2D. Is that cross section not still a piece of the cube? It's certainly a component part of the cube and was taken from the cube. Fits pretty much any definition of piece I know of. And yet, it wouldn't have the same "potency" as the whole thing.
Click to expand...
Not inherently true. No matter how much you slice up that cube, if it's an actual 3D object, it'll never become 2D, just infinitely close to 2D.
A cross section of the cube can be 2D, but if we're talking about actual, physical, geometric objects, it's impossible for a 3D cube to be sliced so thinly it becomes 2D, it can get infinitely close to it, but it'd never become literally two-dimensional.

Also why are we treating the piece that Ness absorbed as infinitely lower. It was a small fraction, but it definitely wasn't an INFINITELY small piece of it. Just some arbitrary fraction.
 
Chariot190 said:
Not inherently true. No matter how much you slice up that cube, if it's an actual 3D object, it'll never become 2D, just infinitely close to 2D.
A cross section of the cube can be 2D, but if we're talking about actual, physical, geometric objects, it's impossible for a 3D cube to be sliced so thinly it becomes 2D, it can get infinitely close to it, but it'd never become literally two-dimensional.
Click to expand...
That depends on which dimensionality you think quarks have. 0 or 1-dimensional quarks are common and, in that case, you could actually cut yourself a 2D piece of a 3D object.

Not that such quantum physical considerations are really relevant for this, as we are dealing with the supernatural.

Anyway, I don't know the verse in the slightest, so I won't try to judge the issue. For what I was asked to comment on I am in agreement with what many other staff members have already said:
A finite fraction of infinite would be infinite of the same cardinality.
Having a fraction of some power doesn't necessarily mean more than having a piece of it. That depends on context, as not everybody is constantly talking math.
Having a piece of a higher power, higher dimensional or not, doesn't scale to the higher power on its own. Channelling higher powers can result in all kinds of tiers.
 
DontTalkDT said:
That depends on which dimensionality you think quarks have. 0 or 1-dimensional quarks are common and, in that case, you could actually cut yourself a 2D piece of a 3D object.

Not that such quantum physical considerations are really relevant for this, as we are dealing with the supernatural.

Anyway, I don't know the verse in the slightest, so I won't try to judge the issue. For what I was asked to comment on I am in agreement with what many other staff members have already said:
A finite fraction of infinite would be infinite of the same cardinality.
Having a fraction of some power doesn't necessarily mean more than having a piece of it. That depends on context, as not everybody is constantly talking math.
Having a piece of a higher power, higher dimensional or not, doesn't scale to the higher power on its own. Channelling higher powers can result in all kinds of tiers.
Click to expand...
I see. Well, considering that most, if not all of the mods here now disagree with the fractional scaling, I suppose we can just drop that altogether. If the other arguments for Low 1-C Ness and Giygas are not sufficient then they will have to be downgraded back to Low 2-C for the time being. Thank you for your input.
 
I'd propose these tiers until Part II, the Low 2-Cs might change in the next part of the CRTs:
  • Sealed Giygas: Likely Low 2-C
  • Ness: Low 2-C
  • Unsealed Giygas: Low 2-C
  • The Player: Low 1-C
  • Dark Dragon: At least Low 1-C
  • Truth of The Universe: At least Low 1-C
Edit: the Low 1-C ratings will be elaborated better in the Part II as well.
 
I must say I am extremely disappointed on how this thread was rejected. When the revisions were already replied and the OP was asleep, certain people (won’t point fingers) complained about this thread and asked the mods to take it down at the last minute.
 
Sadistic_Sleuth said:
I must say I am extremely disappointed on how this thread was rejected. When the revisions were already replied and the OP was asleep, certain people (won’t point fingers) complained about this thread and asked the mods to take it down at the last minute.
Click to expand...
It wasn't tho, Low 1-C is found as legit, only that Ness and Giygas don't scale for @DontTalkDT's reasonings.
 
Starsprite53 said:
So why low 1-C ness and giygas are rejected again?
Click to expand...
DontTalkDT said:
That depends on which dimensionality you think quarks have. 0 or 1-dimensional quarks are common and, in that case, you could actually cut yourself a 2D piece of a 3D object.

Not that such quantum physical considerations are really relevant for this, as we are dealing with the supernatural.

Anyway, I don't know the verse in the slightest, so I won't try to judge the issue. For what I was asked to comment on I am in agreement with what many other staff members have already said:
A finite fraction of infinite would be infinite of the same cardinality.
Having a fraction of some power doesn't necessarily mean more than having a piece of it. That depends on context, as not everybody is constantly talking math.
Having a piece of a higher power, higher dimensional or not, doesn't scale to the higher power on its own. Channelling higher powers can result in all kinds of tiers.
Click to expand...
^
 
So is somebody knowledgeable here willing to adjust the Ness and Giygas profile pages?
 
This sounds cool and all, but like It has been said a fraction of 5D can be any tier.
lemme introduce to you my little friend called occam's razor which it's the most logical and the simplest explanation is likely the right one.
A fraction of 5D can be 5D as well (if nothing says the piece itself is Low 1-C, nothing as well says the piece itself isn't low 1-C)since there is no evidence against that the fraction is 5D (but just assumptions) this can fall under hitchens's razor.
So either they should send evidence against 5D ness instead of making claims without supportive scans or we should make a variable tier for him.
 
Last edited:
StrymULTRA said:
I'd propose these tiers until Part II, the Low 2-Cs might change in the next part of the CRTs:
  • Sealed Giygas: Likely Low 2-C
  • Ness: Low 2-C
  • Unsealed Giygas: Low 2-C
  • The Player: Low 1-C
  • Dark Dragon: At least Low 1-C
  • Truth of The Universe: At least Low 1-C
Edit: the Low 1-C ratings will be elaborated better in the Part II as well.
Click to expand...
Why "At least"? That would imply they could be 1-C or so.
If this is just for scaling purposes, just specify that detail on the AP section.
 
I unlocked Ness and Giygas's profiles, someone like Shadow may update the profile. And if I'm not back from work by the time they need to be relocked, someone else will have to take care of that.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I unlocked Ness and Giygas's profiles, someone like Shadow may update the profile. And if I'm not back from work by the time they need to be relocked, someone else will have to take care of that.
Click to expand...
I should also note something while we are on the topic of Ness since a crucial detail seems to be absent from most of these arguments. While yes, it’s true that Ness did touch the TOTU, however it wasn’t only what amped him up after defeating his evil side. Him touching the truth of the Universe was what allowed him to absorb the power of the Earth, unlocking his true powers and becoming enlightened to the fullest extent of his abilities. Something that’s already been established on the CRT. After this interaction, it’s stated he absorbed his Magicant to his heart, including the Sea of Eden which is where the Ultimate intelligence resides at. In other words, filled with the Truth of the Universe which Ness had absorbed to himself. Now, someone on this thread mentioned before that the Power of the Earth was a source of power also belonging to another user, that being The Dark Dragon, a being who we accept to being Low 1-C. So if Ness absorbs a source of power that the Dark Dragon channels to himself, why wouldn’t this be Low 1-C? Another thing that was improperly addressed was Prayers and The Player taking 3 hits to fully destroy Giygas who had already been weakened from other prayers. This was already established by VileShadows to scale to Attack Potency and has yet to be properly refuted at all. Giygas tanking hits from The Player (whoose a higher dimensional being) would equate to Low 1-C durability, in which Ness is able to slightly harm him at the beginning. Again, why isn’t this Low 1-C? No one should edit the profiles until these points have been properly refuted + until Vile gets back up
 
Both the power source point and the taking hits point were already discussed.
 
AKM sama said:
Both the power source point and the taking hits point were already discussed.
Click to expand...
"Discussed"
🤔
AKM sama said:
And sharing the same power source =/= being able to output the same power
Click to expand...
This isn't a refute.
And i really want to see how giygas's durability was discussed cuz I don't see any good debunk
Giygas was able to tank more than 3 hits from The Player aka a higher Dimensional being while in a weakened state.(gosh i hate repeating myself)
 
The player never attacked Giygas directly. The player prayed for Giygas to be defeated and the prayer damaged Giygas, not the player.
 
VileShadows said:
Nobody made the argument that sending prayers is something exclusive to the Player, the important part is that their prayers are what actually finished Giygas off, when even the combined prayers from everyone on Earth could only wound him. If it were not for the Player, the battle would have been decided the moment that Paula ran out of people to pray to. Also, I don't see how regular people praying debunks the Player's prayers having Low 1-C potency, Giygas is evil itself so of course he is going to be damaged by the positive energy of the prayers. The prayers are made from the concern and love that the other characters have for the chosen four, that goes against the very nature of Giygas. I don't see why the Player's prayers would be infinitely weaker than their normal abilities either, it doesn't matter if it's not a conventional attack, the Player is still using prayer as a medium to damage Giygas.
Click to expand...
Refer back to this, Seol.
 
The regular citizens of the games world also do damage to Giygas via prayer, are they also Low 1-C?
 
Uh, did you not read the part where VileShadows specified that the prayers were only exploiting his weaknesses and merely wounded him, while The Player was literally the only thing that killed off Giygas? As in, completely obliterated and erased him off the face of the games world.

Here, let me quote the specific part that should clear things up since The Player and the prayers of humanity are vastly different:

Giygas is evil itself so of course he is going to be damaged by the positive energy of the prayers. The prayers are made from the concern and love that the other characters have for the chosen four, that goes against the very nature of Giygas
Click to expand...
I don't see why the Player's prayers would be infinitely weaker than their normal abilities either, it doesn't matter if it's not a conventional attack, the Player is still using prayer as a medium to damage Giygas.
Click to expand...
 
TheQuirkyBoy said:
Uh, did you not read the part where VileShadows specified that the prayers were only exploiting his weaknesses and merely wounded him, while The Player was literally the only thing that killed off Giygas? As in, completely obliterated and erased him off the face of the games world.
Click to expand...
What is more likely, A: Giygas is damaged by positive energy and the players positive energy is merely what finished him off, being the last source of positive energy for Paula to call upon, or B: The positive energy of the prayers merely damaged and the player launched a new super mega prayer that had vastly more power than the others to completely obliterate him. One these is far more supported by the events of the game and it is not option B.
 
Are you not understanding the points being made here from VileShadows? I don’t want to be repeating myself here nor Vile’s points (he’s quite literally too drained and lacks the motivation to comment on here now). I don’t know if I can make this any more clearer than what’s already been established, but the prayers of humanity only wounded Giygas and destabilized his defenses because of the positive energy and love for the Chosen Four. Something that goes against his very nature of his being, aka a void dimension that became evil itself. Now, here we have The Player, an entity who we accept as a 5th dimensional being that is infinitely superior to the game world. See where I am going with this?

the player launched a new super mega prayer that had vastly more power than the others to completely obliterate him
Click to expand...
Unironically enough, that’s quite accurate to what we are arguing. The Player was, and I repeat, was the only thing that put an end to Giygas. If you look closely where The Player prayed for the kids, the damage output is astronomically higher than any prayer made previously. Had Paula not reached out to them, the battle might have been over right at the spot. It’s very weird to say that The Player’s prayers are infinitely weaker than their normal abilities, it literally doesn’t matter if it’s an unconventional attack when they are using prayers as a medium to damage Giygas.


And for the record, we don’t appreciate this type of attitude. That isn’t cool and it’s completely unnecessary. This isn’t the first you’ve posted something like this too. That goes against completely everything this thread Ant once made before. So please, for the sake of everyone, have a change of attitude even if it is offsite. We are not mad or anything, just disappointed.

Also, if people still have an issue with the absorption thing, why can’t we settle with a tier that would most likely appeal to everyone on here such as “Low 2-C, possibly Low 1-C”? It acts as a compromise and takes a lower end and a higher end of absorbing the TOTU.
 
Seol404 said:
What is more likely, A: Giygas is damaged by positive energy and the players positive energy is merely what finished him off, being the last source of positive energy for Paula to call upon, or B: The positive energy of the prayers merely damaged and the player launched a new super mega prayer that had vastly more power than the others to completely obliterate him. One these is far more supported by the events of the game and it is not option B.
Click to expand...
You realize you shot yourself in the foot if you think The Player would prefer using prayers over actual attacks, meaning it's physical attacks would likely be weaker, meaning Giygas can still tank some hits. Thanks for the better scaling.
 
Before I refute anything I would like to start off with the fact that I find it incredibly dishonest of you to go to the Discord and screenshot my posts to make me look bad while DatOneWeeb engaged in the same behavior towards me even after being told to stop by AKM (All of which I am ready and able to provide screenshots for), I'm not going to deal with your petty attack on my character because your upset I don't agree with with the upgrade. (BTW, I don't want to hear any more about this on this thread, if you have an issue with me, take it to my dms on Discord. Drop it from this thread immediately, this is not the place to do this.)

Most of your points rely far to heavily on assumptions of actions that are not stated in game. Furthermore, it is the positive energy from the player that damages Giygas, not the player. It's absolutely absurd to scale Giygas to the damage of the positive energy just because it comes from the player, when the other characters whos prayers deal damage to Giygas (And it was far more than merely lowering his defenses mind you, the final form is literally referred to as being fatally wounded, which is before the player even prays) don't scale, it's very clear that the damage dealt by the prayers has no correlation to the character making the prayers power, unless you think Ness' family are Low 1-C for fatally wounding Giygas.
DatOneWeeb said:
You realize you shot yourself in the foot if you think The Player would prefer using prayers over actual attacks, meaning it's physical attacks would likely be weaker, meaning Giygas can still tank some hits. Thanks for the better scaling.
Click to expand...
This assumes the player was capable of attacking Giygas through other means, and given that the player is meant to represent the person playing the game, that doesn't seem to be possible, unless you can provide an example of it happening. Again, you're making claims that rely heavily on assumptions over evidence.
 
Seol404 said:
This assumes the player was capable of attacking Giygas through other means, and given that the player is meant to represent the person playing the game, that doesn't seem to be possible, unless you can provide an example of it happening. Again, you're making claims that rely heavily on assumptions over evidence.
Click to expand...
So apparently a 5-D being can't interact with a lower D being, despite Truth doing EXACTLY that. So yes, The Player can interact with characters in the game, play the game before even saying shit. The Player is meant to be YOU. You completely ignored how The Player's prayers deal MORE damage out of any other prayer. If The Player is going to pick a prayer over a physical attack because prayers deal more damage, that completely meants The Player's regular attacks deal less damage. And again, beings like Truth whom are also 5D can interact with characters like Ness. You're the one making claims on a verse you blatantly don't know.
 
Seol404 said:
Before I refute anything I would like to start off with the fact that I find it incredibly dishonest of you to go to the Discord and screenshot my posts to make me look bad while DatOneWeeb engaged in the same behavior towards me even after being told to stop by AKM (All of which I am ready and able to provide screenshots for), I'm not going to deal with your petty attack on my character because your upset I don't agree with with the upgrade
Click to expand...
I'll do it myself.
 
I remember someone said why this doesn't have "insert number" pages of debate...

Well now it have.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Astral_Trinity439
  • Locked
TenSura WN Major Revision - Part 14
4 5 6
Replies
204
Views
28K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Protector_Hunk
The Dark Tower Cosmology Revision
2 3
Replies
105
Views
10K
Protector_Hunk
Protector_Hunk
Bright5787
One Piece Cosmology Multiversal+?
Replies
5
Views
1K
Sebas-S.P-san
Sebas-S.P-san
Laxxius
Baba stat upgrades (Baba is You)
Replies
0
Views
242
Laxxius
Laxxius
FundamentalForce
  • Locked
Jojo's Bizarre Cosmology [Part 1/???]
Replies
39
Views
3K
Animus-sama
Animus-sama
Back
Top