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Lets come back to this: One Piece downgrade thread

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CloverDragon03 said:
Isn't that kinda how acceleration works? You speed up over time, so I wouldn't call it super out of the ordinary
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But it's not a constant acceleration here, so luffy putting more force for a movement which happens after punch doesn't make sense
 
Putting in additional force for the final swing to send Kaido into the ground makes sense to me...
 
I’ve never been the biggest fan of 1 frame feats, simply because a lot of times animators will skip/omit aspects frame to frame in order to produce an interesting/captivating visual effect. So, when we take a single frame at face value like that, there is a decent level of charity we must grant. As opposed to a more holistic view, that looks over the entire motion.

An example to illustrate my point I think would be Gremmy’s meteor being split in the Bleach anime. Using the initial frame produces nearly planetary levels of KE as opposed to the entire scene which produces an averaged KE of like moon level. There are shared assumptions between both, but the more conservative approach doesn’t rely on a scene being “realistic” within a single frame, as averages can help direct things in the most consistent direction of interpretation.

Now that’s not to say that KT’s rationalization of using 1 frame is wrong, I’m not commenting on that. I do believe most 1 frame KE feats can be rationalized, aka with the Gremmy meteor, it’s faster at the start cuz friction hasn’t slowed it down yet, etc etc. Rather I just wanted to comment on 1 frame KE feats in general, but perhaps that is better suited for a broader thread 🤷‍♂️ (also the Gremmy example may not be exactly 1 to 1, but it’s just an analogy to get my point across, if you think it’s context is wildly different you can disregard the analogy)
 
CloverDragon03 said:
He makes that movement as he's punching Kaido and the momentum carries on even after the punch is done
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No? That's after punch, we're talking about him being accelerated unrealistically higher even though there's no need for that after punching (if he could then should just accelerate this way while punching Kaido)

Like even though I don't 100% argue that scene's been cut, this just seems more logical to me.
 
I think that kind of punching scenes are more like someone's fist remains on another guy's cheek for a while, then after 1 frame we see that punch is finished and the other guy's flying or smth like that and then we also see this in slowmo too. I believe 1 frame between these 2 slowed parts isn't for showing actual movement

Idk if I explained myself well but this kind of stuff still mostly depends on CGM's opinion about scene rather than proving something
 
Floxy178 said:
No? That's after punch, we're talking about him being accelerated unrealistically higher even though there's no need for that after punching (if he could then should just accelerate this way while punching Kaido)

Like even though I don't 100% argue that scene's been cut, this just seems more logical to me.
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The fact that Luffy's putting in the same effort as when he was in the middle of punching Kaido, except now without colliding against something so he's actually going even faster, makes it so that the acceleration isn't "unrealistic"
 
CloverDragon03 said:
The fact that Luffy's putting in the same effort as when he was in the middle of punching Kaido, except now without colliding against something so he's actually going even faster, makes it so that the acceleration isn't "unrealistic"
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He doesn't do this even when not colliding for 9 frames and the next frame we just see his fist fully rotated
 
I don't see what you're saying. His fist collides with Kaido's face and moves at a certain speed, and then when he swings back his fist leaves Kaido's face and speeds up as a result of not colliding with anything now. I'm not convinced that this isn't valid
 
CloverDragon03 said:
I don't see what you're saying. His fist collides with Kaido's face and moves at a certain speed, and then when he swings back his fist leaves Kaido's face and speeds up as a result of not colliding with anything now. I'm not convinced that this isn't valid
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If reason of swinging his fist back at such high speed was continuation of the attack as you said, his fist should have moved with the same acceleration when it left Kaido's face, but it hardly moved for 9 frames and in the next frame we see his fist already withdrawn. This is more like a transition rather than showing movement tbh.
 
Floxy178 said:
If reason of swinging his fist back at such high speed was continuation of the attack as you said, his fist should have moved with the same acceleration when it left Kaido's face, but it hardly moved for 9 frames and in the next frame we see his fist already withdrawn. This is more like a transition rather than showing movement tbh.
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No it wouldn't, because there wouldn't be something blocking the acceleration
 
Floxy178 said:
In that 9 frames, Kaido doesn't block Luffy's fist either
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Who said anything about blocking? Just being there as an object that Luffy's fist collides with would make his punch slower than when there's nothing in the path of said fist
 
If you look at that 9 frames, Luffy's fist doesn't collide with Kaido's face, but still doesn't accelerate that high
 
Uh, no? Luffy's fist is directly colliding with Kaido's fist until his arm is swung back
 
Okay I see what you mean now, but what I don't see is how this debunks the acceleration point. Like, this is still a basic case of acceleration when Luffy moves faster at a later point than at an earlier point
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Okay I see what you mean now, but what I don't see is how this debunks the acceleration point. Like, this is still a basic case of acceleration when Luffy moves faster at a later point than at an earlier point
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The point is that:

The speed difference between frame 9 and frame 10 should be equal to speed difference between frame 1 and frame 2 (or between any side by side 2 frames)

But here it differs, acceleration between frames 1-2, 2-3, ..., 8-9 is highly different from between 9 and 10. If acceleration was constant, speed difference between any side by side 2 frames would be equal. That's why I'm saying it's more like a transition.
 
No it should not because different scenes move at different frame rates

That's the point of cinematic timeframes

Which is why Kaidou's face was stuck in the same place for 2/10ths of a second when realistically he would've dropped by then
 
I can't comment on what precisely we should go for here without seeing the alternative calc in its own blog to evaluate, but to give my take on it.

Using the frame-by-frame site and the clip linked in the original calc here, the original calc seems to be making this assertion:

After Frame 2328, you can see that the 1 frame already had his arm swung back after the previous one was the fist to the front.
Click to expand...

Means that the full 180 degree spin of Luffy's gigantic fist happened in that single frame from 2328 to 2329. Those frames are this and this. I don't see how that could be gotten from that.

If that's a typo and the calc meant 2338 instead, where it goes from here to here, then I can understand it a bit better... But I do not think this makes for a reliable timeframe. Because for the next 62 frames (until that clip ends) Luffy and Kaido hardly move at all. Despite the fact that Kaido should be moving at extreme speed having covered that distance between frames 2338 and 2339 in less than 5% of a second, he is then shown having hardly moved for the next 2 and a half seconds? There are major visual inconsistencies there.

As KT pointed out above, "different scenes move at different frame rates". Saying that Kaido literally didn't move at all in 2 and a half seconds doesn't work because Cinematic Time is unreliable if it is suggested that a scene is slowed down. But the same is true if it is implied a scene is sped up too. The gap between frames 2338 and 2339 looks like a cut to me. We don't see the movement being depicted; Kaido is just instantaneously further away while Luffy's arm appears to have swung around. Despite neither of them moving this quickly before or after this cut.

So out of all the hundreds of frames of the punch being depicted here... Only 1 jump in frames is the accurate visual depiction of the speed here? That doesn't work for me personally based on what our current rules look like.
 
Do you have reason to believe the latter shot is sped up outside of a reasonable doubt outside of "the shot is fast"?
 
KingTempest said:
Do you have reason to believe the latter shot is sped up outside of a reasonable doubt outside of "the shot is fast"?
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To me, it doesn't look like a single continuous shot. It looks like there's one continuous shot where it is zoomed in on Kaido's face after he's been struck by the punch, then it cuts to a second continuous shot where it is further zoomed out and we can see Luffy after the punch and Kaido being suddenly much further away.

The jump between the two shots is what I consider to be the moment where it is sped up here. I understand not everyone would necessarily see it that way since it's easy to interpret that it all being part of the same scene means that time is being depicted linearly but if we can't trust a single frame before or after that transition between the two shots, I wouldn't personally depend on that transition shot either for the movement.
 
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KingTempest said:
No it should not because different scenes move at different frame rates

That's the point of cinematic timeframes

Which is why Kaidou's face was stuck in the same place for 2/10ths of a second when realistically he would've dropped by then
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Yeah. But that's also why acceleration argument won't work. There isn't anything for proving that it was a cut or proving otherwise.

For me, if there is a slowmo scene, then instantly appears another slowmo scene, assuming that between these 2 scenes there was an actual movement with a cinematic timeframe seems illogical. Also can anyone tag CloverDragon03? I wonder if his opinion changed or not
 
I know this question may not have much to do with thread, but I noticed that One Piece's gravitational acceleration is 779.636104841 m/s^2, which is higher than earth, could this help in increasing the weight of Luffy's fist?

vsbattles.fandom.com

Long River Calcs My Planet

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

(English is my second language. If I type anything strange, I apologize.)
 
M2u12 said:
I know this question may not have much to do with thread, but I noticed that One Piece's gravitational acceleration is 779.636104841 m/s^2, which is higher than earth, could this help in increasing the weight of Luffy's fist?
Click to expand...
This isn't relevant to the thread, save it for another time.
 
Floxy178 said:
The point is that:

The speed difference between frame 9 and frame 10 should be equal to speed difference between frame 1 and frame 2 (or between any side by side 2 frames)

But here it differs, acceleration between frames 1-2, 2-3, ..., 8-9 is highly different from between 9 and 10. If acceleration was constant, speed difference between any side by side 2 frames would be equal. That's why I'm saying it's more like a transition.
Click to expand...
No, it doesn't need to be the same. In fact, with most speed feats, it generally isn't the same because of different frame rates as KT mentioned. It's pretty much an unreasonable ask, and depending on what frames you choose to use, you could get different speeds for any such feat. This doesn't "debunk" acceleration at all
 
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CloverDragon03 said:
No, it doesn't need to be the same. In fact, with most speed feats, it generally isn't the same because of different frame rates as KT mentioned. It's pretty much an unreasonable ask, and depending on what frames you choose to use, you could get different speeds for any such feat. This doesn't "debunk" acceleration at all
Click to expand...
Doesn't matter if his speed hasn't increased for 9 frames. It's same scene with same frame rate(not talking about frame 2339) so even if these 9 frames have different frame rate than that 1 frame gap, they still should show acceleration as Luffy's fist left Kaido's face but it doesn't look like it accelerates at all.
 
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