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That's appealing to what you personally believe should be necessary, which I feel is too much scrutiny for the sake of it
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Also it needs to be the same. If they have different frame rates that just means we can't compare if it's same or not. Not "it doesn't need to be the same"
I wrote that explanation as the problem was not seen in different frame rates, but that it could be slow at first because it accelerated.
I wrote that explanation as the problem was not seen in different frame rates, but that it could be slow at first because it accelerated.
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If it doesn't show any acceleration I'm sure it's a quite necessary point
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I don't agree with that, and it's doubtful that'll change given that this comes down to a disparity in belief for how these things should be handled.
Luffy went from his fist being plastered onto Kaido's face to doing a 180 degree swing. There's obvious acceleration in there, and yet going by your claim, there's none.
My stance remains unchanged, and I believe that while a reasonable degree of scrutiny should be applied, this goes beyond what I feel is "reasonable."
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Acceleration argument itself was for debunking it being slow at first because it accelerated. But now we all agree that 9 frames period was a slow motion scene. There isn't any obvious acceleration there but the point is that it doesn't change anything as it being slow for 9 frames isn't a used counter-argument now. I already explained that here
Like, that's just how acceleration works? That's not something depending on agreement
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I don't get what you're saying. Like, Luffy's fist being slower in the first 9 frames and then speeding up in the last one is basic acceleration. You can say what you will, but my stance is likely not changing
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I will explain as simple as I can
As how acceleration works, for that 9 frames Luffy's fist also should speed up, but it doesn't
There being acceleration or not doesn't change anything because there isn't a counter-argument of "Luffy's fist was slow at first" which should be debunked by acceleration argument
Luffy's fist isn't slow at first, just that scene has different frame rate (like how both KingTempest and you said)
As how acceleration works, for that 9 frames Luffy's fist also should speed up, but it doesn't
There being acceleration or not doesn't change anything because there isn't a counter-argument of "Luffy's fist was slow at first" which should be debunked by acceleration argument
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Things like this are admittedly on the trickier side to evaluate it, but my rationale is that when you watch the entire scene at full speed and scale, there is what I consider to be a continuous flow. There's a well-defined arc to Luffy's motion here.
Not to mention, there are absolutely ways to depict the swing as slower if they wanted to - such as showing the swing happening after said cut instead of showing it being finished.
Luffy's fist is slower at first. A slower frame rate can easily depict that. Worth keeping in mind, too, that saying "it's just the frame rate" isn't exactly a valid counterargument without proper substantiation. This is pretty much an arbitrary belief of "the scene needs to be this way", and I don't agree with that.
Without new arguments, I don't see my stance changing. And that stance is that I don't agree with the calc change.
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Understandable. Personally it doesn't look like that to me.
One of the things I'm slightly confused about is how the distance that the fist travelled was calculated. The formula there currently is essentially the circumference of a circle with the length of Luffy's arm as the diameter.
2 x radius x pi is what this is 106563.59228944 * 180 * pi/180.
Not quite sure how a 180 degrees rotation ends up equalling a circle.
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No? Why scene having slower frame rate should mean anything about fist's speed? I'm sure slower frame rate even mostly used for scenes with higher speed but that's not the point. If it has slower frame rate, then it has different frame rate so you can't just directly compare it. Idk how you agree about having different frame rate and also say Luffy's fist was slower at first.
I'm not even sure what this changes as even it was slower it doesn't show any acceleration for 9 frames period of same scene
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Multiplying degree by pi/180 to find that it was pi radians and then multiplying radius by pi radians. There isn't a 2× here
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I see, so the length of Luffy's arm is being treated as a the radius here.
My issue with that then if that it assumes that the entire mass of Luffy's arm is at the end of his fist. It should be calculated the movement of the center of mass.
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Only now I noticed that part of your reply. Yeah, it makes sense as all of fist's parts have different speeds. I think we should call KingTempest then.
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A bit confused, I just traveled a long distance, but a 180 degree arc should basically just be pi x radius (since you'd need to divide the equation of a circle's circumference by 2, pretty much canceling out the 2 from the initial equation)
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Thanks, that bit was also clarified by Floxy178, but i had a new point here:
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I don't believe that's what's assumed here? It's just that Luffy's entire arm is being swung that distance. That's how we always do these sorts of arm movement calcs, because the entire arm is being moved rather than just part of it
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Which is a bit of a problem when trying to find the kinetic energy of it though.
Say you're trying to find the maximum speed of a sword swing, so you find the distance that the tip of the sword travels in an arc. That makes sense for finding the speed; the tip of the sword is what crosses the most distance in that timeframe so it is the fastest.
But the entire mass of the sword is not travelling along that arc. You can't just apply the mass of the sword to the speed that the tip of it travels. Same thing for Luffy's punch here.
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The entire arm contains the total mass, though
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The entire arm is not travelling that distance though is my point.
If the black line (Luffy's arm) is equal to a value of 106563.59228944 m.
Then the green line would be equal to 334779.398677 m, as it is in the calc.
The gray line is the result after performing a 180 degrees rotation.
Now, we can see how the tip of the black line traces along that green line representing the distance travelled. But the entire mass of the arm here is not crossing that same distance.
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The part that wouldn't be is an essentially negligible amount, as it's coming from Luffy's regular width arm. The actual enlarged fist is traveling that full arc, and that's where essentially all the mass is
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It really isn't. That black line there? That corresponds to this red line:
If you flip that fist vertically by rotating it 180 degrees... How can you say that the entire mass is following the green line on my diagram above?
The diagram above is a direct representation of what is being calced. If you've got an issue with what is being shown there, then you'd have an issue with the calc itself too.
Luffy's regular arm width isn't included in the pixelscaling for KT's calc there. So that has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
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Cut the black line in half and then you'd get a more accurate representation, by my estimate
Also with limb swinging KE calcs, this sort of thing's never been applied before. I don't get why suddenly start now
Also with limb swinging KE calcs, this sort of thing's never been applied before. I don't get why suddenly start now
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I can't think of many limb swinging KE calcs to be honest, but if they're exactly like this one then they may be flawed too, I'd have to see them to be sure.
My sword example earlier didn't seem to be understood so let me rephrase it this way by using an example of swinging a hammer.
If you hold a hammer by its handle and swing it around in an arc, it's going to have a lot more kinetic energy behind it than if you were swinging a hammer around by holding onto its head.
This would be because the center of mass is further out away from you and so therefore the center of mass is travelling a greater distance compared to if you were holding the heavy bit and swinging the handle around.
Now, what does this have to do with Luffy for example? It's because the entire mass, or more accurately the center of mass, is not following the same arc here as what is being calculated. The kinetic energy calc only works if the mass is travelling the distance 334779.398677 meters. My point is that it's not; that's not where the center of mass is. The center of mass is not 106563.59228944 meters away from the point of rotation.
My sword example earlier didn't seem to be understood so let me rephrase it this way by using an example of swinging a hammer.
If you hold a hammer by its handle and swing it around in an arc, it's going to have a lot more kinetic energy behind it than if you were swinging a hammer around by holding onto its head.
This would be because the center of mass is further out away from you and so therefore the center of mass is travelling a greater distance compared to if you were holding the heavy bit and swinging the handle around.
Now, what does this have to do with Luffy for example? It's because the entire mass, or more accurately the center of mass, is not following the same arc here as what is being calculated. The kinetic energy calc only works if the mass is travelling the distance 334779.398677 meters. My point is that it's not; that's not where the center of mass is. The center of mass is not 106563.59228944 meters away from the point of rotation.
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They should, I used the center of mass to calculate the distance of the swing here instead of using the very tip of the metal plate.
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Thank you! I'm glad someone gets where I'm coming from with the centre of mass being an issue.
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Genuine first time I've seen this done
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Yeah yeah Clover's just in denial trying to wank One Piece, we know what you're thinking
Anyways would it be more around the center of the inflated fist?
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I wasn't implying you were in denial; to be more honest I was more frustrated with myself for seemingly being unable to explain it properly.
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Didn't come off that way to me but I'll chalk that up to standard Internet shenanigans + today being tiring
Anyways, where would the center of mass be? At the center of the inflated part?
Anyways, where would the center of mass be? At the center of the inflated part?
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Yeah, pretty much.
For future's reference, if I suspected that you were deliberately denying something that you knew was correct it then I'd call it out. I could tell from your responses that you weren't actually posting fraudulently and that you were arguing genuinely which is fine. I'm grateful for Therefir to come in with an example in an existing calc to clarify it.
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That helps, thanks
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I can adjust my calc to include the speed at the center of mass and its kinetic energy later. However, I wanted to discuss the sheer inconsistency of Luffy's fist size:
If the size of Luffy's fist isn't consistent, then a mass or speed can't be found for kinetic energy, as using a different images would yield completely different results. Could anyone provide some insight into which image to use for the size of his fist? I understand that anime studios aren't consistent with sizing, but which image would be the most reliable (if any)? I'd assume it would be the second-to-last image in the Imgur album I linked, as the last image only shows the width and height of his fist, not the giant bubble behind it. However, the size of the fist in the second-to-last image is contradicted a few seconds later by the final image in the album, so I'm a bit lost.
If the size of Luffy's fist isn't consistent, then a mass or speed can't be found for kinetic energy, as using a different images would yield completely different results. Could anyone provide some insight into which image to use for the size of his fist? I understand that anime studios aren't consistent with sizing, but which image would be the most reliable (if any)? I'd assume it would be the second-to-last image in the Imgur album I linked, as the last image only shows the width and height of his fist, not the giant bubble behind it. However, the size of the fist in the second-to-last image is contradicted a few seconds later by the final image in the album, so I'm a bit lost.
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Nothing is inconsistent here. Kaido's Flame Dragon is much, much bigger than his actual Dragon Form. There's also stuff like pre-decompression and post-decompression
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The same thing applies. With the flame dragon, the size is inconsistent, and without it, the size is also inconsistent.
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fist and arm excep fist are likely symmetrical, so it's easy to find their mass centers seperately. For finding mass center of entire arm I just need fist's length, arm length(except fist), fist's mass, arm's mass(except fist)
These will be enough
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I know that mentioning this now might be too late (I just have free time now), but if we really want to use the maximum arm swing distance, wouldn't it be better to use Rotational Kinetic Energy similar to this calculation?
vsbattles.fandom.com
However, what I typed might not be useful anymore since there has already been a discussion on other calculation methods.
Zunesha's Trunk (Alternative Method)
vsbattles.fandom.com
However, what I typed might not be useful anymore since there has already been a discussion on other calculation methods.
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It's not rod-like here so probably we can't use 1/3*m*L^2 for II know that mentioning this now might be too late (I just have free time now), but if we really want to use the maximum arm swing distance, wouldn't it be better to use Rotational Kinetic Energy similar to this calculation?
Zunesha's Trunk (Alternative Method)
However, what I typed might not be useful anymore since there has already been a discussion on other calculation methods.
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