League of Legends Speed Scaling Problem 3

[Moritzva]

@PixelKirby

Nonmagical being relative to Yordles. All of them are made of physical magical essence and can phase in and out of Runeterra at will.

Right, that's what I meant.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Agnaa

But why? Unless it is apparent that one member is stronger than the others (like Veigar out of the Omega Squad or Todoroki/Deku from My Hero's Class 1-A) they should scale to each other.

OK, she shoots a crossbow. But can she not see Valor and react to his movements?

 

[Agnaa]

You do not need to personally validate anything, everyone else who has agreed to the revisions who actually knows about the verse has already done that

They validated it when it was Hypersonic combat/reactions to everyone. I showed that couldn't scale so you dropped it to Supersonic+ combat/reactions to everyone. I showed that couldn't scale so you dropped it to Subsonic with Subsonic+ combat/reactions to everyone. I showed that couldn't scale so this morning you dropped it to Subsonic combat/reactions to everyone, and you're expecting me to believe that THIS time there's zero issues?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Agnaa Yes, i am.

 

[Moritzva]

For the sake of completion, could someone take a final look through the scaling chain and verify that it's all together? I think it has been affirmed that Teemo/Trist and Quinn/Liss both scale, so let's weed out any final issues.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Yes, because even unnamed randoms are pulling this kind of speed off.

 

[Agnaa]

@Agnaa

But why? Unless it is apparent that one member is stronger than the others (like Veigar out of the Omega Squad or Todoroki/Deku from My Hero's Class 1-A) they should scale to each other.

OK, she shoots a crossbow. But can she not see Valor and react to his movements?

Because I don't like scaling partners who fight together to each other unless they have statements of being comparable to each other.

I don't think the burden of proof should be on showing that they don't scale, it should be on proving that they do scale.

She might be dashing around, but not necessarily at the same speed. She doesn't necessarily need to react to Valor, Valor just needs to react to Quinn's.

 

[Agnaa]

Yes, because even unnamed randoms are pulling this kind of speed off.

I didn't notice feats from unnamed randoms doing Subsonic speeds in the blog? I looked into all the blog feats you verified, there were 12 there (and 2 later ones that we found), and all of them were done by named champions.

Unnamed randoms might (and probably do) scale to them, but I haven't been able to verify this yet.

 

[Agnaa]

For the sake of completion, could someone take a final look through the scaling chain and verify that it's all together? I think it has been affirmed that Teemo/Trist and Quinn/Liss both scale, so let's weed out any final issues.

That's what I'm trying to do, current writeup is here, I can invite you to the Discord group DM for it.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

She is literally carried around by Valor and can jump from him at max speed to attack.

She is able to call and catch him as well as cover his flanks. They are teammates and fight at similar paces.

 

[Moritzva]

Because I don't like scaling partners who fight together to each other unless they have statements of being comparable to each other.

I don't think the burden of proof should be on showing that they don't scale, it should be on proving that they do scale.

She might be dashing around, but not necessarily at the same speed. She doesn't necessarily need to react to Valor, Valor just needs to react to Quinn's.

I do not wish to come off harsh, but just because you don't like to scale it like that does not mean there isn't sufficient reason to. There's enough reason to say they scale.

As well, I am sure that Quinn needs to react and move at least somewhat as fast as Valor to actually be able to work alongside the bird.

 

[Agnaa]

She is literally carried around by Valor and can jump from him at max speed to attack.

She is able to call and catch him as well as cover his flanks. They are teammates and fight at similar paces.

I'd like a little bit of elaboration on that, but that seems like the thing best suited for an instant chat, rather than cluttering up the thread.

 

[Moritzva]

That's what I'm trying to do, current writeup is here, I can invite you to the Discord group DM for it.

Sure.

 

[Agnaa]

I do not wish to come off harsh, but just because you don't like to scale it like that does not mean there isn't sufficient reason to. There's enough reason to say they scale.

As well, I am sure that Quinn needs to react and move at least somewhat as fast as Valor to actually be able to work alongside the bird.

I don't literally mean that "I don't like it", I mean "I don't generally consider it a valid enough reason", and I don't use it for the verses that I work on.

I don't think people need to be as fast as a bird to be able to work alongside it. And even then it could very well just be reactions rather than actual CQC speed.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Agnaa Im sorry but what you consider valid means nothing when the people knowledgeable on the verse do consider it valid

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I am trying to wrap this up because I have some work I need to do. I'm not looking to spend a lot of time in-depth discussing this. I'm getting sick of this genuinely excessive skepticism.

The randoms being comparable to the normal champions is shown by a Noxian elite dodging Kled's attacks and Demacian elites keeping up with Garen's training. While not speed, they are capable of pulling those massive statues. If they are comparable in strength to him, they shouldn't be significantly slower.

 

[Agnaa]

Okay now I seriously disagree when you're scaling them speed-wise because they're comparable AP-wise...

 

[Agnaa]

@Agnaa Im sorry but what you consider valid means nothing when the people knowledgeable on the verse do consider it valid

It's what I consider as valid reasoning in any verse. If it's not valid for one verse it shouldn't be for another.

 

[Moritzva]

Look, here's how I see it:

Random soldiers can do it. Literal fodder that most champions fight against constantly are capable of this. Both on a race scale on a teammate scale, Teemo should scale to Tristana. Agnaa, even if you don't like using such a way of scaling, I can assure you that it makes sense within the LoL universe as I know it. Same with Quinn and Valor. They fight alongside each other, which is really only manageable if they scale off of each other.

Is it arguable? Sure. These sorts of points are up to interpretation. But we are bordering into, as Assalt said it, skepticism. Just because a scaling chain isn't 100% definite/proven does not mean it's completely false and impossible to scale. If we poked holes into everything we didn't know 100% about, most scientific theories in real life wouldn't get anywhere.

Quite simply, it's a matter of what is most likely and most rational in this situation. One could argue that there's not 100% proof, but that doesn't mean it's unreasonable to use context clues, logic, and the story itself to say they scale to each other in some shape or form. What is most logical in this situation? That they scale. It simply is the most likely solution to both of these scaling chains.

 

[Agnaa]

I haven't gotten to the random soldier feats, but if those are so important, I can ask Weekly for those sources and we can discuss whether those are valid.

Fighting alongside isn't only manageable if you scale. If I shoot two people before my friend comes in and beats up three others, that doesn't make us comparable in speeds. I admit that there might be other statements that make them comparable, but Assalt hasn't wanted to elaborate on them.

I don't think it's completely false and impossible to scale, I want to get an accurate scaling. I want to get the 11 people who scale to Xayah/Rakan's feat at Hypersonic, anyone who scales to the Supersonic+ feats at Supersonic+, etc. etc. Rather than just giving everyone Subsonic for now. I don't think that no-one's Subsonic, I think we have to look carefully at who scales to which feat and give characters ratings based on that, rather than a blanket assumption that they're all Subsonic.

It is reasonable to use context clues, logic, and the story itself, but some characters just don't connect to each-other in story. That might not be the case here for Subsonic, but I haven't had anywhere near the time to look into it.

 

[Moritzva]

Okay now I seriously disagree when you're scaling them speed-wise because they're comparable AP-wise...

I do agree with you on this, Agnaa. AP =/= Speed. However, fodder soldiers do regularly keep up with different champions on a speed basis.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Hypersonic isnt legit, please stop bringing it up

 

[Agnaa]

I do agree with you on this, Agnaa. AP =/= Speed. However, fodder soldiers do regularly keep up with different champions on a speed basis.

I've been trying to go through the scaling chains by starting at the initial feat, then going to whoever scales from there, rather than jumping into the middle at some fodder soldiers and trying to work back to a champion who scales. So I haven't gotten to Subsonic fodder soldiers yet (not saying that this didn't happen).

 

[Agnaa]

Hypersonic isnt legit, please stop bringing it up

It is legit, you've just dropped it to pass this revision through more quickly.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

No, its not legit because its not legit, this was agreed on in the first thread

 

[Assaltwaffle]

No, its not legit because its not legit, this was agreed on in the first thread

It could be but there is an equally possible explanation for it not being correct, so we must err on the side of caution.

 

[Agnaa]

After talking to Kirby and others on Discord, I'm fine with something like "Unknown, possibly Subsonic" or "At least Peak Human, possibly Subsonic" for characters like Teemo with not-guaranteed race scaling like that.

What do you think Weekly/Assalt?

 

[Moritzva]

It also fits decently well, given that there's a fair chance that Teemo is slower than Trist anyways. While I personally believe in subsonic, I can understand the doubt, so "possibly Subsonic" seems like a good compromise.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Why unknown? Not only are yordles stated to be canonically much faster than humans but fodder no name humans that yordles consistently outmatch in combat have subsonic feats

I will not agree to anything lower than subsonic for any character other than maybe annie

 

[Assaltwaffle]

There is no point to have possibly or likely. A peak human is exactly what Tristana sees as a "lumbering giant".

They are champions who fight powerful enemies in the world. Only champions who pretty much never interact with someone else, like Annie, would be unknowns.

 

[Moritzva]

Is Subsonic Fodder confirmed or not? Because if it's confirmed there's no need for unknown/possibly.

On the other hand, how I see it is that IIRC Trist is only baseline Subsonic, and given how Trist is more of a frontline fighter, there's reason to believe Teemo scales slightly below Trist. I firmly believe in scaling, but it could very easily be argued that Teemo scales below.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Pixel Yes, subsonic fodder is confirmed

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Also Kled couldn't have pulled an arrow out of Skaarl's hide. She is immune to arrows and even ballista bolts.

 

[Agnaa]

Also Kled couldn't have pulled an arrow out of Skaarl's hide. She is immune to arrows and even ballista bolts.

The picture used for Kled catching a crossbolt shows a crossbolt on Skaarl's hide.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

No, it doesnt, it shows a bolt on the ground near Skaarl

 

[Agnaa]

https://i.imgur.com/Hp4mp6x.png

That's not in the ground behind, there's no ground behind them at that height and that close to the camera.

 

[Moritzva]

Now, I will have to agree with Agnaa here, there are several crossbolts in Skaarl. We could assume that Kled caught it, and it's pretty likely, but that's getting extremely dubious.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

"CHARGE!!!!" I scream, and snap the reins. The drakalops kicks off, and we rush them. I meant to make a clever retort first, but I got ahead of myself. The humans let loose their first volley, but Skaarl raises her ears. Like giant bronze fans, they shield us as the crossbow bolts ricochet off her impenetrable flesh. She roars happily as we dive through their camp at the leader in the red hat. Swords clang against Skaarl's hide, while my axe swings. I turn two of them humans into confetti. The bastard in the red hat's quick. He ducks under my blade as we pass by. Another volley of crossbow bolts hits us. Skaarl screams in fear. Damn thing's unkillable and immortal, but easily spooked. Problem with magical beasties, they don't make no sense. I yank the reins, and we ride back into the middle of the humans. I easily kill the rest of his men, but the red-hat bastard's a tough one. My blade slams into him - but the blow clangs dully against his heavy breast plate. That should give him something to think about, anyway. That's when the ballista fires. The bolt is longer than a wagon. It smashes into the drakalops, knocking my long axe from my hand, and sends us rolling to the ground. Skaarl ain't hurt. But she shakes me off the saddle and runs for the hills."

It directly contradicts the lore to argue that she is capable of being penetrated by crossbow bolts

 

[Agnaa]

Yes, the picture contradicts lore. But the picture still obviously shows the crossbolt in Skaarl's hide.

 

[Moritzva]

Only 1 crossbolt, not several. Mb.