League of Legends Speed Scaling Problem 2

[Agnaa]

Fair. If that's how LoL's canonicity is treated here (canon unless proven otherwise), that's how it's treated here.

 

[Friendlysociopath]

Fair. If that's how LoL's canonicity is treated here (canon unless proven otherwise), that's how it's treated here.

It's more like "canon unless it fits criteria X, Y, or Z which we know isn't canon".

If a champion dies for example, it's not going to be canon, barring someone like Sion being the odd man out since he at least has a valid possiblity of "dying" in lore but still coming back what with basically being a zombie.

If it in any way starts showing references to real-life players as the champions, it's not going to be canon. Same with anything that starts showing a trophy they're fighting towards.

Riot's been plenty clear in this regard. The game and the lore are not the same so treating everything produced by Riot as lore is a path fraught with peril. Sometimes it really is just a hype trailer. That's why in the past one of the head Narrative Rioters stated it's only canon in a Story or Bio. Even Awaken seems to point to this given that Riot's response to "Is it canon?" is "It will be when we write about it".

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The Real Life Players as champions is actually canonically an alternate universe

Once again no, Riot flat out stated that game and lore are integrated into each other, not segregated

 

[Agnaa]

It's more like "canon unless it fits criteria X, Y, or Z which we know isn't canon".

Sure, I was more contrasting it to an alternate method of "Assume not canon, unless WoG says it's canon, it's events are referenced to in canon lore, etc".

Not to knock either of these methods of determining canonicity, since it seems largely arbitrary which of the two you choose imo.

 

[Hykuu]

"Once again no, Riot flat out stated that game and lore are integrated into each other, not segregated"

???

are you trying to imply things such as game mechanics are "canon"? Or is this something on the lines of "Teemo scales to aurlien sol bcus he can blind him in game"

 

[WeeklyBattles]

No? Where did you get that out of what i said? Riot themselves stated that the game and the lore are intertwined but not 1 to 1, as this promotes a way for both the game and the lore to grow and reflect both aspects into each other without stifling the ability to change as League as a whole develops.

Plus even if it were the case with guys like Sol, he'd be separated regardless, similar to how Akuma is above almost everyone else in Street Fighter or Shao Kah is above almost everyone else in Mortal Kombat

 

[Hykuu]

"No? Where did you get that out of what i said?"

ya do realize implications exist and are subjective

yes but how does the game being interwined with the lore mean anything? what are you using that to prove=

If any fight in all 3 verses were considered canon then there would be no scaling at all, lol

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Hykuu I was simply clarifying that what Friendly claimed was incorrect, thats all

Exactly

 

[SchroKatze]

>The game and the lore are interwined

>The league ceased to exist in the lore

>A lot of skills in-gane have a bazillion effects but are just normal attacks without any effect in the lore.

Are you sure?

 

[Hykuu]

also I love how the person who was making counter arguments against weekly got banned, lol, shouldn't we stall this till he gets unbanned or?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Schro 100% positive, i can give you the quote if you'd like

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Hykuu No, we're not going to wait for someone to get unbanned to apply changes that have already been agreed on

 

[Hykuu]

agreed on by how many people again?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Me, Matt, Assalt, Spino, Rocker, Sins, Dargoo, Shrekalmighty, and to some extent and from off-site conversations Agnaa

 

[Agnaa]

Can you guys stop talking about whether the game and lore are intertwined? It has nothing to do with these revisions.

Me, Matt, Assalt, Spino, Rocker, Sins, Dargoo, Shrekalmighty, and to some extent and from off-site conversations Agnaa

I still have huge issues with many parts of it. It's in no state to be applied right now.

It seems weird to include Assalt considering that he's disagreed with some of your reasons for scaling.

And I don't quite feel comfortable saying that most of the others agree since they haven't seen my recent contentions.

 

[Friendlysociopath]

@Hykuu I was simply clarifying that what Friendly claimed was incorrect, thats all
Exactly

You have an odd definition of "clarify" and "incorrect".

All of the champions are currently alive in lore so any video that shows them dying isn't canon.

All of the pros becoming champions is not canon in the main universe, which is very obviously what's being discussed.

And in addition I have multiple times posted the Lead Narritive Editor straight-up and without doubt stated it's only canon in a story or bio. You have not once actually countered that despite disagreeing with it repeatedly.

Also could someone please inform me exactly how many showings against Hypersonic I need to find in order to prove it's an outlier? Because it's really easy to just dig up all the times regular humans were responding in the same timeframe to other League champions, even easier now that Ashe has a full comic dedicated to her.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

There are no videos or stories of them dying, where have i ever brought up or used any video of them dying and said its canon?

No, they did not, they did not say anything of the sort. There is nothing to aaddress as its just factually incorrect.

You'd need to disprove all of the subsonic and supersonic feats first and even then they'd be treated as anti-feats and not outliers.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Trying to literally stall a mostly accepted discussion just so a banned user can come back is... pretty bad.

 

[SchroKatze]

Banning a user and immediately trying to finish a revision so said user can't debunk your side is just as bad.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The revision was already being finished, it's just that as always Regis can't concede to anything. There's nothing wrong with going on with a revision.

 

[SchroKatze]

Its not that Regis can't concede, its just that every time he, me, friendly or anyone tries to debunk, all we get is a "ITS ALL CANON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and a lot of flawed scaling chains with random justifications that even try to use non-sense reasons to justify the scaling.

 

[Rocker1189]

And that is what we call an opinion.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Just because you think its flawed doesnt mean it is, especially when a lot of other users see it as accurate

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You seem to side with Regis and against me or Weekly almost on principle, Schro, and always cry bias whenever you don't "win" an argument.

 

[SchroKatze]

When we point out the flaws you guys just "correct" it with even more flawed arguments. A lot of other users seeing it as correct doesn't make it correct.


But whatever, I give up on trying to do anything here. Its a lost cause already.

 

[Rocker1189]

Honestly, I just want this to be over, we have other revisions to do for higher tiered folk.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Rocker I feel your pain my dude

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Rocker

We have other revisions to do for higher tiered folk pretty much everyone who currrent bears the Low 7-C rating.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Everyone who is Low 7-C is due for an upgrade

 

[Assaltwaffle]

So what is the current problem with the scaling chain? Does Kennen being superior to Sion change things?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Not much no, im working on fleshing out the ratings a bit

 

[Agnaa]

So what is the current problem with the scaling chain? Does Kennen being superior to Sion change things?

The currently proposed scaling chains fail at some points, but a new one could likely fix it.

 

[SinsofMan]

Its not that Regis can't concede.

Let me just say this. I am friends with Regis and I get along with him probably on every verse except this one. I have worked with him on UnOrdinary, Tower of God, and we like alot of the same verses. Hell, after some time, I got to accept his PJ revisions. But usually, he never concedes and I notice he has a habit of just resorting to ad hominems when he is peoven wrong. To be fair, It is hard for alot of people to concede. But Regis points have been debated Ad Naseum. It is hard to admit we can be wrong. I love he is respectful with me, but as someone who is friends with Weekly and Matt, I dont like he isnt respectful to them.

I try to get along with everyone and look at both sides, and I have issues with this site is ran (as you probably know, also key word try cuz I fail at this sometimes.) But Regis could be more persuasive if he didnt complain and cry that those with a green names when he is either disproven or a solid counter argument is presented.

Accountability is a thing, yes. But it works both ways. I miss him, I hope we can debate PJ soon once he gets unbanned. For now though, the OP is banned, this has been going for a while. The only person who has been reasonable that I disagree with imho is Agnaa. Not that regis doesnt make good points, it is just a personal dislike when we deviate to insults just to be given the 'well you right, League is Wall Level and Peak Human.'

And maybe, Agnaa, me and weekly will hammer out LoL on discord.

I would happily invite Regis as a friend if he chills out.

Anyway, rant over.

 

[Friendlysociopath]

@Assalt The problem is that even assuming the chains all work, they have entirely isolated sections with no hypersonic feats or scaling. I spelled out one earlier with Ashe.

Also embedding links isn't working on my phone so when I get home from work roughly 1AM EST I will make a blog about how League canon works. Because it requires quite a few links to do it and League's canon is a complex beast.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The canon is not in any way shape or form complex lol

And im sorry but youre not exactly the most trustworthy person to make such a thing.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Like me and several others have said before, if you have issues with scaling chains being used, bring it up with the wiki as a whole, its one of our core elements. If you're unwilling to do that then im sorry but stop complaining and deal with it.

 

[DerpCity]

@Weekly I'm pretty sure he doesn't have a problem with scaling chains (he might and I could have just forgotten it, but regardless); if you looked at his Ashe example, it was a scaling chain that linked to no speed feats throughout the entire chain. I don't have a problem with scaling chains, but if you're scaling everyone to a feat because of scaling chains then the feat has to be present in the chain somewhere, otherwise all the scaling is pretty much pointless.

 

[Agnaa]

Since Weekly's blog's been updated and he says it's good to look over now, that's what I'm gonna do.

Since the scaling chain expands out like a tree, I'm going to tackle each layer at a time. So for the first layer, the initial feat from Xayah and Rakan. Many of my problems with this have been addressed, but I still have some questions that have gone unanswered.

Because she's fast... that's the point.

Maybe but just in the next scene, we see her scoff and walk away at a similar speed, are we supposed to assume that that's happening in 74x slow-motion as well? Or was she actually walking away 74x faster mere seconds before?

By the animation I mean that it seems like a more sharp dash in the gameplay animation, rather than a gradual fall as it is in the cinematic, but we are getting to relatively minor points here.

EDIT: In both animations I don't see Rakan doing much with his feathers while in the air.

As these are relatively minor, I'm not going to fuss over them too much, but I'd still like them addressed eventually. For the next layer, Zed scales to Xayah, that's perfectly fine.

For the next layer, Shen, Kayn, and Jhin scaling to Zed. Kayn seems fine, they both have similar magic, trained together, and Kayn seems to think his powers are close to eclipsing Zed. Shen also seems fine, as even though Zed did gain magic that likely made him faster after they trained together, they're implied to be comparable in this short story.

Jhin is very questionable, since the only reasoning for this is the earlier-discussed trailer for Jhi. Canonicity aside, as it seems reasonably canon, we don't have much context for Jhin tagging Zed there. Zed could have been going about his business and simply gotten caught off-guard. I don't think we really have the context (especially because it's just a lone picture) to say that Zed tried and failed to dodge Jhin's attack there.

I'll cover the further layers of scaling in later posts.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Derp He does, look about halfway up this thread

Ashe scales to Sejuani who scales to Olaf who scales to Miss Fortune who scales to Ryze who scales to Nasus who scales to Sivir who scales to Taliyah who scales to Yasuo who scales to Akali who scales to Shen who scales to Zed who scales to Xayah

There's your scaling chain

Everything is now in detail on the blog.

 

[DerpCity]

@Weekly Sorry for the inconvenience. From the outside it simply looked like his argument got written off as hating scaling chains when he had a point, but if its already been changed then its fine now.