Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,479
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This is true, but it doesn't matter? Going towards the sky allows you to access Heaven by entering into an Otherworld, similar to how you can access Makai or the Sanzu through Gensokyo as well. Going beyond the clouds just happens to be a way for one to travel from Gensokyo to Heaven. Just because Gensokyo connects to Heaven doesn't mean it contains it. As stated a multitude of times before in the franchise, Heaven is the space that exists between Gensokyo and the Lunar Capitol. This means one can travel to Heaven beyond the clouds, pass through Heaven, and then reach the Lunar Capitol. This Otherworld distinction doesn't really matter within context. Hell, we can even see Jo'on and Shion access Heaven this way by simply flying up beyond Youkai Mountain. Multiple characters do in SWR as well. They're both different Otherworlds, but can be accessed from one another.
Also to further this, the Sanzu River is a similar case, in that it can be accessed from Gensokyo, despite being an Otherworld that does not exist within Gensokyo. Otherworlds can exist as completely different spaces that are simply able to be dimensionally accessed from Gensokyo
"The Corridor wouldn't reach Heaven due to the SSIB Rocket. There's a finite space between Gensokyo and the Lunar Capitol, not Heaven."
I'm bundling all arguments and points in relation to the SSIB rocket and its travels from Gensokyo to the Lunar Capitol here so its not a bunch of individual responses.
The easy counter to this is that the rocket didn't travel a finite distance that allowed it to cross from Gensokyo directly onto the Lunar Capitol. It flew a finite distance into the sky, in order to reach a location where a dimensional hole / portal opens up only during a full moon, which leads directly to the Lunar Capitol's dimension. Yuyuko refers to it as flying through the boundary of the illusory fake moon and the real moon. Functionally, they flew until they reached a way that allowed them to dimensionally travel, thus allowing them to bypass the infinite distance. They just didn't propel themselves a finite distance and land on the moon from Gensokyo. Yuyuko and Yukari demonstrate this directly, instantly teleporting to the Lunar Captiol by manipulating said barrier.
Is this convoluted? Yes, ZUN himself even recently commented on Nikeme Radio that he thinks SSIB's method of reaching the Capitol is "strange", but it's ultimately what happens in the text.
As a secondary thing to mention, Heaven is considered as a method to reach the Lunar Capitol in SSIB itself, as Marisa suggests riding on spirits heading up to Heaven, using them to reach the Lunar Captiol, meaning it does exist as an option.
For the record, this is a very convoluted and specific sequence of events that would have no bearing on Imperishable Night's feat / instance, meaning the corridor would still reach into Heaven otherwise. Ultimately, this isn't an effective counter to the corridor, and does nothing to effectively prove the corridor isn't infinite, and doesn't counter the idea it entered Heaven.
This is a non-point. IT's not a "spatial intrustion", these are really harsh words to frame the argument. The Hakurei Barrier isn't even intruding on them, its simply closing them out from the Outside World, not any sort of attack on them. They wouldn't care about this, if anything, it would be advantageous/preferable to them! Heaven and the Lunar Capitol are notoriously isolationist societies, being closed off would be ideal for them. Lunar Capitol for obvious reasons, their entire deal is purity and they're deathly afraid of Humans ever reaching the Capitol. Celestials within Heaven have also historically lied about Heaven being full just to keep others out to have the lands to themselves. This doesn't really disprove the multiple statements on the matter about the Lunar Capitol still being within the Hakurei Barrier's confines.
I also think you're generally misreading the manga panel. The conversation is ABOUT the Outside World, yes, but its specifically about Gensokyo's relationship with the Outside World via the Hakurei Barrier, and Reimu is explicitly saying that even while she was at the moon, they did not go past the Barrier. This is pretty explicit about the Hakurei Barrier's nature and relationship with the Lunar Capitol.
"Eirin always intended to protagonists to reach her"
This makes literally no sense? If this was the case, why would she have an infinite corridor with the express intention of being a deterrent set up before they could ever be reached? At this point Eirin knew literally nothing about the protagonists, so she had no way or knowing they would be fast enough to bypass the infinite corridor, she canonically states that she underestimated the cast of IN to the point they were beyond her calculations.
And most damningly, why would they send Reisen in order to seal off every door in the hallway beforehand, so the protagonists would never know which one to enter, and thus be lost in the hallway forever? That seems to run pretty counter to the idea that Eirin always intended for them to reach her.
"You haven't answered why the Fake Moon would act like this"
It doesn’t. It only appears to act that way because the protagonists are:
1. In a location that actively distorts their perception
2. Fighting against someone who fights by altering her opponent’s perception (Reisen). Why should Remilia saying “it looks like the moon is getting closer” hold any weight when what Remilia sees is known to be misleading and likely false?
And let’s be real for a moment, the fake moon was ineffective regardless of how you interpret the matter of perspective. The plot of the game starts when every youkai in Gensokyo notices the moon was replaced with an illusion; The whole “Eirin intended it to fool people” argument holds no weight when it failed spectacularly at that, and that failure is why the game even happens in the first place. Even non-youkai like Yuyuko, Youmu, and Marisa (in one ending) can easily notice that it’s a fake.
You seem to believe that this could only happen if Eirin deliberately designed the illusion this way, but did it ever occur to you that the illusion is just not very good at being an illusion?
And to be frank, a lot of the arguments you're making are "well, it COULD have acted this way" when that interpretation isn't really supported in the game itself.
Then this is an issue with the profiles / scaling of the profiles rather than the nature of infinite speed itself. It shouldn't be that way, and I'd have no issue with this thread instead focusing on re-evaluating which characters get infinite speed scaling. In fact, part of the aforementioned planned revisions for Touhou that the discussion rule was initially made for WAS revolving around the speed scaling chains that were intending to fix this exact problem. Regular humans and fodder tier fairies have no valid way to scale to infinite speed, but low tiers (everyone at Cirno’s level and above) still do. We’re aware the profiles are bad and are working to fix them, so simply saying “the profiles are bad and need fixing” isn’t an argument.
Why is Komachi’s statement being given any weight at all when we demonstrably see the protagonists pull off the very thing she described as impossible? Simply saying a character can’t perform a feat is meaningless if that character then performs that feat, like Marisa saying “nothing can move faster than light!” moments before performing a blatant FTL feat. This would simply mean one character underestimated the capabilities of another. You still haven’t addressed this, nor have you explained why a statement like this should override the feat in question.
In regards to the corridor in Cheating Detective Satori, you seem to maintain that it is totally inapplicable to the Imperishable Night corridor, yet here you are conflating the two despite your earlier fighting against that fact. Also, it’s not even a matter of speed in CDS, Eientei is being guarded by numerous rabbit youkai in this chapter, and Mokou, having broken into Eientei many times before, is simply guiding Marisa to Eientei’s interior. At no point is simply running past everyone presented as an option, because this scenario requires stealth above speed. Nothing implies Marisa should’ve been stopped by the corridor by the way, no idea where you’re getting that from. Being able to “blitz past” an obstacle isn’t really a factor when you run the risk of getting shot on sight. One can easily run across a military base, but that’s not really feasible because they'd be riddled with bullets before they ever got the chance.
We control these profiles? That’s really funny man, I’d love to have control of these profiles, maybe it wouldn’t take several months for CRTs and revisions to get pushed through if that were the case. Sounds like you have the inverse issue with most other Touhou supporters. We were all pretty interested and active at trying to fix up the verses pages because they’re actively a massive mess on most fronts, but when it takes several months for any sort of revision thread to pass and needing to know 16 levels of mod politics and which mods to bother to get literally any single thing done for the pages, it’s pretty demotivating to continue working on these profiles. You seem to be able to rally people just fine, you were asking people to support this before you even showed them the arguments, after all, if you cared about the verse and wanted it improved I feel like there’s significantly more important things?
In fact, just to emphasize this point further, Touhou notoriously had an issue of threads taking forever to be evaluated, at least 11 different CRTs taking overly extensive time periods to make any progress. Here's an imgur album that goes into it extensively. When things move at literal glacial speeds to get anything done, of course profiles are still going to be a mess lol. I dont see how any group of people could be "in control" of things when the process to add even the smallest additions can extend months.
It’s also pretty annoying when it’s always speed being targeted with the same trite arguments repeated. If you genuinely cared about updating the verse and making the pages less messy, there’s dozens of things that could’ve been done instead. Updating character pages to be more accurate, fixing ability justifications, having scans added in, there’s thousands of abilities still not listed, there’s hundreds of feats not listed for various characters on profile that exist and can be scaled to (I have a document full of them, including multiple other infinite speed feats I’ve been planning to add), there’s cosmology that hasn’t been acknowledged or added yet. You wouldn’t get any backlash for any of these changes because they’re objectively things that are good to be added to the profiles, and the Touhou supporters that are still active would love any sort of support on that front!
But no, here we are, for the fifth cycle, trying to downgrade infinite speed off of the same poor reasons that’ve been rejected multiple times. You self admittedly can’t even disprove one of the feats and continuously are trying to find weird unsupported arguments filled with assumptions to disprove the others, because “infinite speed bad”. You’re digging and digging for an answer you want because you don’t like something.
You’re picking the exact thing you know will activate the hornets nest, and then being upset and complaining about the hornets coming after you. If I went and tried to run a downgrade thread on infinite speed Dragon Ball, I’m not gonna be surprised when 27 users jump down my neck for trying it.
Also, this same “notoriously rabid fanbase” of like 5 people tops isn’t going to be receptive to someone, or a group of people, who are consistently aggressive, dismissive, or smarmy to them, or when their opinions / arguments are continuously distilled down to “Fuji sock” by your own words. It’s almost like you’re poking a bear or something and then getting mad when it bites back.
This is kind of irrelevant to the debate and you’re also missing dozens of feats overall (such as the PC98 MFTL feats, among others), and I’m generally not sure if all of these are accepted right now to begin with. You also missed Suika’s feat as an infinite speed one which is still currently accepted in profiles. If it’s not infinite, then it’s an MFTL+ calc in the Octotrigintillions x FTL camp via the size of Amitabha.
If we wanna talk consistency I’m pretty sure there’s more infinite speed feats in count than there are MFTL+ ones. Consistency of a franchise having lots of FTL feats does not prevent them from being higher either, if anything, it shows a precedent that these characters can move fast. Sonic wouldn't be limited to being below light speed because he has a lot of MHS feats, for instance.
"Why didn't Reimu just speedblitz out of Avici, isn't that an Anti-Feat?"
Infinite speed doesn't grant dimensional travel. She'd still have to cross the barriers of the dimensions via other ways and not sheer speed. It's implied Avici is sealed off, it could only be accessed via dimensional teleportation with a Hell Portal and seems to trap those within it. It's also somewhat implied that Hell as a whole is somewhere you can't escape from without some sort of Authority from Hell giving one permission to do so. This would not really be an anti-feat.
I'm going to be honest Reth, you've largely just been clogging up this thread, there's been 2 whole additional pages of text added since Saikou's response made before I could properly respond to him, and to be frank, none of it is really pertinent to any of the topics at hand, could the thread please be slowed down so it can be focused on what actually matters from OP?
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I still haven't really had the chance to get into defending the Palanquin / Sanzu / Suika's feat either, and plan to give responses in defense of those later as well. Just been unfortunately busy (and sabotaged by this very site wiping my response LOL) so I'm still stuck on the Corridor largely.
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