Justice for Tokyo Revengers.

[Deagonx]

He's messing with you.

I'm aware.

 

[Dinozxd]

3rd one was already posted and the dude said he missed. Probably aimed too high.

Bro. This was discussed before. The scans Zefra and Dale presented are obvious edited scans because of the font difference between that statement and other panels.

Don't understand how the dude would miss either as the same thing happens in the original timeline as well and Takemichi would get shot there as well if Senju didn't push him out the way. Takemichi in the actual timeline was able to dodge the bullet because he actually dove in and pushed Senju out the way (after the bullet gets fired btw, so It's not aim dodging).

The distances in the panels are kinda weird and the distance Takemichi moved to dodge the bullet is unknown so don't think this feat can be calculated (might give it a try sometime though). The part that matters here is Takemichi without resol (who is a low tier) being able to dodge bullets.

edit: nvm I found pretty good and clear panels to scale the distance between the shooter and Takemichi. Will definitely give this feat a try later.

 

[Dalesean027]

Bro. This was discussed before. The scans Zefra and Dale presented are obvious edited scans because of the font difference between that statement and other panels.

Brah no one has time to sit here and edit scans and frankly this verse isn't worth that but for insistin this sorta thing and trying to stir up controversy I will be warning you that I will report you should you openly lie like this again when we literally caught you in the act of lying about that particular scene

Even the wiki itself supports the scans we sent so respect shut the **** up with that

Chapter 220

"Bull's-eye" is the fifth chapter of the 25th volume and the 220th chapter overall of the Tokyo卍Revengers manga series, written and illustrated by Ken Wakui. In a café, Senju and Takemichi wait out the rain. Senju leaves for the restroom soon after. Meanwhile, Takemichi is lost in his thoughts...

tokyorevengers.fandom.com

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

This is the same thing that always happen in TR calc threads so I'm not really commenting with things besides this one:

Bro. This was discussed before. The scans Zefra and Dale presented are obvious edited scans because of the font difference between that statement and other panels.

... Dale quite literally shared two different sites that are exclusively dedicated to upload TR manga, heck the chapter was uploaded to those sites more than 2 years ago (heck even ******** scan says that), so unless you are doing the very stupid claiming that they traveled back in time to create sites dedidated to TR manga and that they specifically edited that page to give false information then that translation is legit.

But don't worry, I even went out of my way to search the chapter in another language and found how the character quite literally says "¿¡Cómo no le di!?", "Como eu errei!?", "Nasil iskalarim" with all of them translating to "How did I miss!?" like in the scans they shared before.

Be mature enough to understand that people here don't care enough about TR to go around the internet uploading fake scans or purposely searching for false ones, so don't falsely accuse people.

Tokyo Revengers, Chapter 220 - Tokyo Revengers Manga Online

tokyo-revengersmanga.com

Tokyo Revengers, Chapter 220 - Tokyo Revengers Manga Online

Read Tokyo Revengers / Tokyo Manji Revengers Best Manga Online in High Quality For Free Only On Tokyo Revengers Manga Online

w17.tokyo-revengers.com

While I understand the feeling and the reason, share links to pirate sites where read manga isn't allowed in the forum (morale thing apart I think it also affects the ads but could be wrong with that) so try to not do that.

 

[Dalesean027]

While I understand the feeling and the reason, share links to pirate sites where read manga isn't allowed in the forum (morale thing apart I think it also affects the ads but could be wrong with that) so try to not do that.

Yeah apologies it was just the quickiest access I had looking up the specifc chapter since I didn't have thr scan on hand and I was pretty pissed considering we're dealing with blatant lies and being called out and villanized on shit that just isn't true

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Yeah apologies it was just the quickiest access I had looking up the specifc chapter since I didn't have thr scan on hand and I was pretty pissed considering we're dealing with blatant lies and being called out and villanized on shit that just isn't true

I know, that's why I began the comment saying that I understand the feeling and reason.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

1) Dark Impulses Mikey should have fear inducement back.
This is simple, the ability is removed in this thread, but due to bad justification, the actual justification is not addressed there so he should have it back. The ability got accepted by Mr.Duedate here.

Alright so here are my honest thoughts on these.

Wether or not we think this is supernatural or not. It’s a valid feat that I feel should be indexed. I propose a non supernatural ability like Social Influencing as a compromise because Mikey did in fact pass across murderous intent on Senju to instil fear in her.

2) Fixing the scaling chain.
The scaling chain right now is really bad, everyone got scaled to Subsonic+ even though both the Subsonic+ scales are done by top 2 of the verses, Izana and Mikey.

Only Izana and Mikey should scale to any speed feat done by them.

This is how the scaling chain goes:
Mikey=Izana> South> Kakucho> Takemichi (final arc)> Senju > Angry> Taiju>= Mucho> Wakasa=Benkei> Inui=Koko> Draken> Hanma> Osanai> Mid tiers (Chifuyu, Baji, Ryusei, Kazutora, Mitsuya, Hakkai, Peh Yan, Pah Chin, Smiley, Ran, Rindou, Sanzu, Mochi> Low tiers (Takemichi [before final arc], Kisaki, Akkun, Makoto, Takuya, Yamagishi, Shion, Kojiro).

In my opinion the scaling chain looks good so far. Any contentions should be discussed at the tail end of this thread as this is ultimately of little importance.

3) Clarifying Izana's gun feat.
This is the entire feat.

I find this really funny how this feat got removed, someone tried to remove the Izana's feat in this thread which was dedicated to remove other feats. The guy was rather clueless about the context of Izana body's moving on its own being related to the feat itself, so I brought up that and addressed that Izana's body moved in reaction to the gun being fired, the guy then randomly said that Izana's reaction was Kisaki's saying "Die", I told him why he was wrong, he never did address any of my points and randomly said that this feat is not for the thread even though he brought it up. And he then said the same thing he said before in this thread without being able to debunk any of the things I've brought up before, and then sadly, it was automatically agreed upon by Therefir without any of the genuine supporters being able to voice their opinions.

I'll just say what I've said before to rebunk the feat. This got ignored like 4 times, so I'll say it here.

The first Gunshot was shown EXCLUSIVELY on Kisaki's panel, meaning the gun was shot first, Izana's movement was only depicted right after that. But some people (mainly fans of characters/verses whom Mikey/Tokyo Revengers is compared to) aren't satisfied with that, I'll give a deeper explanation.

So, Izana's movement when he saved Kakucho was involuntary, as he mentioned his body moved on its own. The narrative in the chapter's conclusion also supports this notion. This leads us to consider two potential triggers, the gunshot or Kisaki's statement "Die."
Izana reacting to Kisaki saying "Die" blatantly defies storytelling principles. In stories, it's customary to depict a character's reaction immediately after the triggering event to emphasize the cause-and-effect relationship. In this case, Izana only appears in the third panel. What's more, the panel between Kisaki's saying "Die" and Izana saving Kakucho has crucial moment which is a gun being fired. Delaying the character's appearance while showing significant events like a gunshot can create confusion and disrupt the narrative's cause-and-effect flow, now this suggest that Izana indeed didn't react to Kisaki's words. To put it simply, the first gunshot was tied exclusively to Kisaki's panel and Izana was shown right at the next panel, which means Izana reacted to the gunshot.

I'm gonna add another thing, we can know that the guy with the gun was entirely and absolutely blitzed since he didn't see Izana running towards saving Kakucho, so if Izana was reacting to the "Die" it means he will already be there before Kisaki started shooting.
This drawing exists.
Izana had a lot of motion lines on him.
If you're asking what value this holds, if Izana's movement truly was done even before the 2nd panel even starts then it's unnecessary to draw a lot motion lines on him. Motion lines are meant to show ongoing action within a single moment, so if the action is already completed, they can create confusion. This shows that the action is happening in that panel itself. Like bro, if there are 3 panels, and the action of a character is done even before 2nd panel even starts, it's unnecessary to draw a lot of motion lines in the 3rd one, it just goes against how events in mangas are written. If Izana truly was already there before the gun even get shot, there will be no motion lines on him as his movement will already be completed.

As for this, objectively speaking the paneling and motion lines do infact indicate that the gun was shot first before Izana pushed Kakucho out of the way AND before Izana got to Kakucho in the first place. However we do not know the exact position Izana was before the gun was fired. It’s possible Izana moved before the gun was fired but never arrived at Kakucho and it’s also possible that Izana started moving after the gun was fired. The latter also has some credence because one can argue that Kisaki would’ve seen Izana moving to protect Kakucho.

The author has also done something similar in the past when Takemichi dodged a bullet as the feat clearly dictates with not just the panel arrangements but the gun man’s own words. (To appease the side who believe there may be bias against Tokyo Revengers, I got confirmation from @Armorchompy on discord that the feat is not aim dodging. I trust his judgement because he has little to no opinion on Tokyo Revengers allowing him assess the feat without any form bias guaranteed.)

Therefore, at the very least, Izana truly pushes Kakucho after the gun was fired but wether or not Izana initially began running up to Kakucho after the gun was fired can not be concretely concerned hence a “possibly” rating could be warranted based on the mild evidence supporting it.

Possibly​

Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly.

Our main focus right now should be to calc Izana pushing Kakucho after the gun was fired. If a “possibly” rating is accepted for Izana moving after the gun is fired, the supporters should feel free to calc that only after the main feat is done.

4) Addressing Chifuyu's feat
This calculation, and following this thread specifically, I gave up on that thread since our side can't really win, most users in that thread are just instinctively against that feat even though they can't really prove the thing they even claim, I also find it funny how no admins or thread mods reject the thread but got closed, DDM agreed with the upgrade, but not the multiplier, but it still got closed.

The maths and method for this got accepted in the previous thread, but it's denied and deemed an outlier due to breaking this rule, the rule basically states that when two characters are comparable and a calculation results in the other characters being a lot faster, then the feat is an outlier. But that's not the case since the characters are falsely claimed to be comparable to one another.

So, I'll have to explain why Chifuyu and Kojiro has big speed difference.

Baji and Ryusei and comparable and Chifuyu and Ryusei are comparable, so based on this we can establish that they're all comparable to one another.

The feat got rejected based on this where Chifuyu said that Kojiro is fast.

There's one thing I want to point out here, when someone is perceived weak by default, and they suddenly surpass those perceived expectations, it's a typical reaction for others to be surprised by what they do even if they're not necessarily stronger or as strong as them, or even as fast as them.

I'll give an example from the show itself, Takemichi was considered really weak in the entirety of Tokyo Revengers, but in the final arc his true power was revealed, he was able to punch and fly Kakucho some meters away, it surprises everyone including Mikey, this is the final arc where Mikey didn't show much emotions until this moment. Although Mikey is still MASSIVELY SUPERIOR to Takemichi, he was surprised by it. This is what Mikey can actually do to Takemichi.

Here, Kojiro had to use an electronic device to render Chifuyu unconscious and tie him up, and on top of that he's really short and skinny, so by default, Chifuyu is gonna consider him weak.

To prove that there is a big speed difference between them, shortly after Chifuyu called Kojiro fast, Kojiro was unable to hit Baji whom Chifuyu is comparable to, even though Baji was off guard, this speaks volume about their difference in speed.

And here Kojiro got one-shot by Ryusei, the guy comparable to Chifuyu. Here, when Ryusei's arm movement was already completed, Kojiro's arm either didn't really move, or it moved really little. This proves a big speed difference.

Additionally, the calculation I made also can be used to prove that the speed difference is big.

So, Kojiro is NOT comparable to Ryusei, Chifuyu or Baji, so the feat is legitimate.

I have no opinion on this one. I’ll look at the arguments in the thread later.

5) Debunking the notion that Tokyo Revengers characters' speed should be below bullets.

I'm gonna divide this into 2 parts, the 1st will be debunking the claims for the particular feats, and the 2nd being why you can't just limit them.

Part 1:

The claim is this, "Senju a top tier character can't do anything to save Draken from getting shot by a gun"

This version of Senju is not in the scaling vacuum, she has no feats of fighting anyone.
Basically, that thing happens in chapter 220 and 221. These are the scans of chapter 229, here Senju claimed that she avoided her potential because it could lead Takeomi to the wrong path.
Therefore, the claim that the characters of the verse should be below guns is invalid, since Senju at the time doesn't scale anywhere.

Another claim is this, "Kakucho one of the fastest character in the verse can't do anything against a gun and had to be saved by Izana"

If we were to accept that this scene limits Kakucho, we'll also have to accept that Kakucho has below average human speed and he scales below Kisaki since Kakucho was only around 4-7m away there (depending on panel used) and Kisaki had time to watch him running towards him, say "Die" and pull the trigger.
Yes, this is pure PIS, Kakucho is capable of outspeeding characters who are capable of blizting Kisaki, but here Kakucho had to run at below average human speed.
Unless we wanna accept that Kakucho scales below Kisaki, this is PIS.

Also I wanna add two things,
1) The goons that carried the gun with them only targeted Takemichi when Senju was away from him, they only came out after Senju got away from Takemichi.
2) Kisaki had to drug chifuyu and tie him up even when he had a gun.

This strongly implies that even when they have a gun, they don't really have the guts to take on certain characters.

Part 2:

Now let's pretend (keyword: pretend) that everything I just said above is incorrect (which is obviously not true), you still can't limit them using "bullet speed>" argument, I'll explain why.

In Tokyo Revengers, how dangerous weapons with instant lethality are exaggerated, much to the point that it overrides the other elements of said weapons. I'll explain how.

Here, Angry one-shot Mucho, we can see that the speed and power gap is huge. Mucho then pulled up a knife, here it overwhelms Angry even though Angry is a lot faster, and even Takemichi who just witnessed their different in strength. The situation got too bad to the point Kakucho had to interfere in it.

Here Kakucho fought against Sanzu in the final arc but Sanzu was suddenly on par with him and Kakucho lost despite him being massively faster than Sanzu. Their difference in power is like this:

Kakucho defeated Angry, Angry defeated Mucho with low difficulty, Mucho defeated Inui with low difficulty, Wakasa and Benkei defeated Inui and Koko with high difficulty, Wakasa fought Base south a lot better than Draken did, so Inui > Draken either mid-high difficulty. Draken can defeat Hanma with high difficulty, Hanma fought on par with Mikey in the beginning of the series.
Mikey can defeat higher end of mid tier characters like Baji and Pah Chin with low difficulty since they were kids.
Characters like Baji are equal to characters like Mitsuya, Mitsuya defeated Ran with mid-high difficulty, Ran and Sanzu are comparable.

When long sharp objects like Katana or other swords are considered dangerous, the main problem usually lies in the fact that that can kill instantly, and the other problems being the range and the skill of the wielder.
Ran had baton when he was against Mitsuya (who's a mid tier too), but still lost, and he too had baton against Sanzu and Sanzu was using metal pipe, they fought on par, metal pipe and Katana are around the same length, so the range isn't the problem here, skills only starts to matter when the speed of the character is good, especially in this case since it's a fictional work where stats different are much more severe, here Sanzu is still nowhere near Kakucho when it comes to speed.

Here, Takemichi was about to be killed by Sanzu and he had to be saved by Taiju. This Takemichi is directly relative to Kakucho. So even though Takemichi is far superior, he still was about to lose.

When characters are being overwhelmed by guns the default assumption is that it is due to the fact that they can kill instantly and has speed that can't really be reacted, so it's the damage and the speed that's the problem by default.

But what I just wrote proves that in this verse, weapons with instant lethality overwhelms characters even if the said characters are far faster than them.

While that doesn't automatically say that the characters are faster than guns, it does neutralize the default assumption that the speed is the problem.

So in this case, if anyone thinks speed is the problem, the burden of proof falls on them to prove it.

In addition to some of the things written above. These are superhuman characters no doubt and it’s widely accepted that they are so the assumption that they can’t react to bullets seems arbitrary because we simply decided to ignore the other reasons why the verse may be wary of bullets. Bullets and Guns are just dangerous weapons in general. Consider their piercing damage and the fact that they can land on vital points that instantly kills these characters. Also let’s not forget that bullets are hard to notice in general which make it difficult in general to dodge.

In most cases in fiction, characters fear the lethality of bullets rather than their speed. So simply picking ONLY the possibility that they may fear their speed isn’t a good look to those who consider themselves to be without bias in my opinion.

 

[Dalesean027]

The author has also done something similar in the past when Takemichi dodged a bullet as the feat clearly dictates with not just the panel arrangements but the gun man’s own words.

Bruh that panel is blatantly contradictory to any other translation you will find, its literally not what was said we've been over this plus he was already airborne before the shot was fired, we've linked alternate translations in other languages and the actual official translated one in english as well as the verse wiki itself which uses the raws and that all have the guy saying he missed, not a word about dodging

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Bruh that panel is blatantly contradictory to any other translation you will find, its literally not what was said we've been over this plus he was already airborne before the shot was fired

I’m not arguing Takemichi wasn’t airborne. I’m arguing he slammed into Senju after the bullet was fired. I don’t even consider the feat impressive, eyeballing it would be subsonic.


Also we took a look at the translations already? Alright I’ll go check the kanji but what the goon said is only support not main evidence

 

[Dalesean027]

I’m not arguing Takemichi wasn’t airborne. I’m arguing he slammed into Senju after the bullet was fired. I don’t even consider the feat impressive, eyeballing it would be subsonic.


Also we took a look at the translations already? Alright I’ll go check the kanji but what the goon said is only support not main evidence

you're seemingly missing my point is well my argument isn't that he was already airborne thats a part of it but it blatantly said he just missed, it wasn't even a bullet dodge feat the guy just missed

This is the same thing that always happen in TR calc threads so I'm not really commenting with things besides this one:

... Dale quite literally shared two different sites that are exclusively dedicated to upload TR manga, heck the chapter was uploaded to those sites more than 2 years ago (heck even ******** scan says that), so unless you are doing the very stupid claiming that they traveled back in time to create sites dedidated to TR manga and that they specifically edited that page to give false information then that translation is legit.

But don't worry, I even went out of my way to search the chapter in another language and found how the character quite literally says "¿¡Cómo no le di!?", "Como eu errei!?", "Nasil iskalarim" with all of them translating to "How did I miss!?" like in the scans they shared before.

Be mature enough to understand that people here don't care enough about TR to go around the internet uploading fake scans or purposely searching for false ones, so don't falsely accuse people.

While I understand the feeling and the reason, share links to pirate sites where read manga isn't allowed in the forum (morale thing apart I think it also affects the ads but could be wrong with that) so try to not do that.

Brah no one has time to sit here and edit scans and frankly this verse isn't worth that but for insistin this sorta thing and trying to stir up controversy I will be warning you that I will report you should you openly lie like this again when we literally caught you in the act of lying about that particular scene

Even the wiki itself supports the scans we sent so respect shut the ***** up with that

Chapter 220

"Bull's-eye" is the fifth chapter of the 25th volume and the 220th chapter overall of the Tokyo卍Revengers manga series, written and illustrated by Ken Wakui. In a café, Senju and Takemichi wait out the rain. Senju leaves for the restroom soon after. Meanwhile, Takemichi is lost in his thoughts...

tokyorevengers.fandom.com

You quite literally don't have to look far as its all here

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I’m going to assume the English translation is indeed wrong. Your whole argument on that Takemichi bit is based on what the goons said and not the context from previous pages that directly contradict what the goon said and for good reason. How could he have missed if he hit his mark in Takemichy’s vision??. That alone blatantly indicates that the goon is on target and if Takemichy didn’t slam into Senju she would’ve been caught by the bullet

The goon was only wondering how he didn’t hit his target, in truth he was on target, Takemichi saved Senju and I’m saying he saved her after the bullet was fired. It’s a bullet dodging feat.

 

[Zefra3011]

I’m going to assume the English translation is indeed wrong. Your whole argument on that Takemichi bit is based on what the goons said and not the context from previous pages that directly contradict what the goon said and for good reason. How could he have missed if he hit his mark in Takemichy’s vision??. That alone blatantly indicates that the goon is on target and if Takemichy didn’t slam into Senju she would’ve been caught by the bullet

The goon was only wondering how he didn’t hit his target, in truth he was on target, Takemichi saved Senju and I’m saying he saved her after the bullet was fired. It’s a bullet dodging feat.

But Takemichi was already in front of Senju before the guy shot and he didn't really move after, if he was going to hit he would have hit, when I first sent all the Scan for the context I didn't even mention "did I miss?" I only mentioned Takemichi didn't start to move after the shot.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

But Takemichi was already in front of Senju before the guy shot and he didn't really move after, if he was going to hit he would have hit, when I first sent all the Scan for the context I didn't even mention "did I miss?" I only mentioned Takemichi didn't start to move after the shot.

I’m not arguing Takemichi wasn’t airborne. I’m arguing he slammed into Senju after the bullet was fired.

Also, You say “he didn’t really move after”, does that mean you agree that Takemichi slammed into Senju after the bullet was fired. Keep in mind I don’t care how much movement happened after the gun was fired, only that there was a movement to begin with.

 

[Dalesean027]

I’m going to assume the English translation is indeed wrong. Your whole argument on that Takemichi bit is based on what the goons said and not the context from previous pages that directly contradict what the goon said and for good reason. How could he have missed if he hit his mark in Takemichy’s vision??. That alone blatantly indicates that the goon is on target and if Takemichy didn’t slam into Senju she would’ve been caught by the bullet

The goon was only wondering how he didn’t hit his target, in truth he was on target, Takemichi saved Senju and I’m saying he saved her after the bullet was fired. It’s a bullet dodging feat.

true but now comes to the question of tiemframe cause are we now saying he slammed into the ground before the bullet reached or are we saying by the time they were at least at a 45 degree angle they were out of the way. Cause now going by this assumption will now bring this question into the forefront, in fact lemme see something

 

[Zefra3011]

No no, I understood that, but litterally he was already very close to her and he didn't move in a way that really allowed him to dodge somehow, if the guy was aiming correctly in that direction he would have still hit him.

 

[Zefra3011]

Also, You say “he didn’t really move after”, does that mean you agree that Takemichi slammed into Senju after the bullet was fired. Keep in mind I don’t care how much movement happened after the gun was fired, only that there was a movement to begin with.

He started to jump on Senju and was like idk 0,5 away from her? > The goon shoot > Takemichi finish his movement, I guess he made some distance after the bullets was shot but thats not a matter he reacted to the bullet or something, he just finished a movement while a bullet was fired from several meters, this said, how can this help?

Edit: another thing we dont know is how much distance did the bullet covered while Takemichi finished his movement, I strongly think he missed since Takemichi didn't basically move so the bullet might have surpassed Takemichi and only after Take finished to reach Senju.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

No no, I understood that, but litterally he was already very close to her and he didn't move in a way that really allowed him to dodge somehow, if the guy was aiming correctly in that direction he would have still hit him.

He would’ve hit him yes if Takemichi wasn’t fast enough to slam her all the way to the ground. That’s the only logical explanation.

Also this actually gives me an idea on how to calc it but we will derail this thread if we talk about it too much. But I will only say my idea to respond to @Dalesean027

true but now comes to the question of tiemframe cause are we now saying he slammed into the ground before the bullet reached or are we saying by the time they were at least at a 45 degree angle they were out of the way. Cause now going by this assumption will now bring this question into the forefront, in fact lemme see something

Seems we are on the same page. Since it’s not a headshot, it’s probably a body shot at least. Im not sure if a 45 degree angle is fine. The further away the thug is from Senju, the less angle needed for a body shot. So it may be lower than 45 degrees. It should be possible to find the exact angle tho.

 

[Zefra3011]

That's not the only logical explaination, is not like the goon is a professional assassin with a perfect aim, but well, as far as we know he simply might have slightly missed him, we dont really see where the bullet went we must trust this guy aim to tell he would have hit him and where.

 

[Dalesean027]

That's not the only logical explaination, is not like the goon is a professional assassin with a perfect aim, but well, as far as we know he simply might have slightly missed him, we dont really see where the bullet went we must trust this guy aim to tell he would have hit him and where.

this, dude was literally just some regular mook who managed to get his hands on a gun and was all jumpy and shit I doubt he had crackshot aim but that said considering he actually did and he would've hit I did a version of the calc which had them peak at Subsonic+ given he covered the distance between himself and senju as well as went 90 degrees straight to the ground. The other ends are just subsonic so if we for some reason did consider this an actual dodge it still would be within the normal range of feats we already scale them to

 

[Arnoldstone18]

@Zefra3011 Whatever the case may be about the goon. We know the goon was on target and there’s no reason to believe otherwise given Takemichi’s vision. Anything else would just be grasping straws tbh.

The goon was also trusted assigned to carry out the task and it definitely doesn’t look like it’s his first time using a gun. Also you may be right. But like I said none of that matters, we have seen he was going to hitt his target.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

this, dude was literally just some regular mook who managed to get his hands on a gun and was all jumpy and shit I doubt he had crackshot aim but that said considering he actually did and he would've hit I did a version of the calc which had them peak at Subsonic+ given he covered the distance between himself and senju as well as went 90 degrees straight to the ground. The other ends are just subsonic so if we for some reason did consider this an actual dodge it still would be within the normal range of feats we already scale them to

I guessed it .

What about Izana pushing Kakucho out of the way after the gun was fired?

 

[Dalesean027]

I guessed it .

What about Izana pushing Kakucho out of the way after the gun was fired?

I still personally disagree with that feat so I'm not gonna calc it, too many assumptions are present the biggest one being how far away he as before Kisaki started shooting

 

[Arnoldstone18]

No problem.

I guess I’ll know whenever someone get around to calc that low end. The “possibly” end can wait.

Seems like everything is sorted out for proper staff evaluation.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Therefore, at the very least, Izana truly pushes Kakucho after the gun was fired but wether or not Izana initially began running up to Kakucho after the gun was fired can not be concretely concerned hence a “possibly” rating could be warranted based on the mild evidence supporting it.

WWW, Izana moving after the Gun was shot is more reasonable, I'll tell you why. After Mikey told Izana that they still have each other and that he wanted to save him, Izana started to have mental breakdown, he doesn't care about the condition they were in at all, much to the point he ordered the executives to kill Kakucho. His actions aren't conscious during that time, so it's most likely that his actions are triggered by something as he said his body moved on its own, and based off my explanations, it's pretty clear that the gunshot triggered his movements.

In addition to some of the things written above. These are superhuman characters no doubt and it’s widely accepted that they are so the assumption that they can’t react to bullets seems arbitrary because we simply decided to ignore the other reasons why the verse may be wary of bullets. Bullets and Guns are just dangerous weapons in general. Consider their piercing damage and the fact that they can land on vital points that instantly kills these characters. Also let’s not forget that bullets are hard to notice in general which make it difficult in general to dodge.

In most cases in fiction, characters fear the lethality of bullets rather than their speed. So simply picking ONLY the possibility that they may fear their speed isn’t a good look to those who consider themselves to be without bias in my opinion.

Yes, and no one seemed to have refuted any of my arguments.
When there is a weapon that can kill instantly, characters are overwhelmed even though there's a massive speed gap, PURELY because "they can kill in an instant".

My logic is this:
When gun is a threat, the default assumptions are both the speed and the damage.
But what I've said entirely decimated the speed part in the default assumption.
So, if someone disagrees with that, the burden of proof FALLS ON THEM, to prove it's the speed that's the problem.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I still personally disagree with that feat so I'm not gonna calc it, too many assumptions are present the biggest one being how far away he as before Kisaki started shooting

That's the best. They have announced season 3 which would be aired from 3rd October. Assumptions aside, I think we should wait for the anime adaptation. The SFX argument contradicts the manga logic, and we cannot get any "blitzing idea" upon character reactions. I am pretty sure the scene will be adapted like in 2-3 months from now and everything will be exposed. The feat can surely be given justice then (if they really adapt from a good and decisive POV, any TR animators here?).

 

[Dalesean027]

In most cases in fiction, characters fear the lethality of bullets rather than their speed. So simply picking ONLY the possibility that they may fear their speed isn’t a good look to those who consider themselves to be without bias in my opinion.

quite literally no one has argued that its only speed they are wary about in fact quite the opposite was argued the entire time that they only fear piercing damage, this has been the case across several threads. I explicitly stated Occam's razor would dictate they fear guns because they're guns and considering this verse's general showings without calcs and narratively we'd take that as guns are guns and obviously if someone shoots at them they can't do anything be it dodge or tank the shots. It has never been mutually exclusive and both reasonings would be the case so I don't appreciate the twisting of the words and that argument and find it in bad taste that said here's what I got for the takemichi one

 

[Dalesean027]

But what I've said entirely decimated the speed part in the default assumption.
So, if someone disagrees with that, the burden of proof FALLS ON THEM, to prove it's the speed that's the problem

This is actually not the case as this has never been accepted and only refuted and as you all made the claim to begin with you need concrete proof and the burden of proof in fact fall on you all and has for the last dozen threads yall have continuously made this claim without providing a definite scan that outright says or supports this with a character verbatim saying this or truly bullet timing in to prove that its only the speed of bullets they aren't worried about using narrative evidence and not calcs as that would be a form of hidden calc stacking. No arguments were remotely decimated either so I'm not sure where this is coming from.

 

[Dalesean027]

@Antvasima we may need different staff members to take a look at this who are willing to read through the thread and give their thoughts on the arguments here regarding the speed stuff as the ability additions have already been figured out and the scaling is another matter for the supports.

Also @CloverDragon03 @DMUA sorry to bother you both but can I get your opinions here as well on the arguments as well as the usability of this calc

Takemichi dodges a Bullet

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

This is actually not the case as this has never been accepted

Because I was in school having exams at the time this was debated on, everything was already concluded before I even got home, and after that I posted my arguments and they were entirely ignored.

as you all made the claim to begin with you need concrete proof and the burden of proof in fact fall on you

The narrative of the verse is the proof, which I explained, and you others still haven't given proper refutations.

I'll say it once again, after Sanzu got a Katana, he's relative to Kakucho and defeated him, depsite the massive speed gap, with a metal pipe he's only Ran's level, and you all know the massive speed gap between Ran and Kakucho.

Sanzu won against Kakucho due to the fact that Katana "can kill instantly", so the instant lethality of the weapon is the problem.

Let me quite what I said once again

When characters are being overwhelmed by guns the default assumption is that it is due to the fact that they can kill instantly and has speed that can't really be reacted, so it's the damage and the speed that's the problem by default.

But what I just wrote proves that in this verse, weapons with instant lethality overwhelms characters even if the said characters are far faster than them.

While that doesn't automatically say that the characters are faster than guns, it does neutralize the default assumption that the speed is the problem.

So in this case, if anyone thinks speed is the problem, the burden of proof falls on them to prove it.

Otherwise, there'd be zero point in the scaling chain since Kakucho would be relative to Ran Haitani and mid tiers.

Are we really gonna put the top tiers to where mid tiers scale? If that's a "Yes", I'll give up on this thing, thank you.

 

[Dalesean027]

Because I was in school having exams at the time this was debated on, everything was already concluded before I even got home, and after that I posted my arguments and they were entirely ignored.

You're arguments have not been just ignored and commented on in every thread ever, they have been rejected as they weren't sufficient enough. You're not going to sit here and say in the dozens of threads that I've seen about a dozen CGMs and other staff comment on thay they all just ignored all the arguments. Playing like a victim here isn't supporting you.

The narrative of the verse is the proof, which I explained, and you others still haven't given proper refutations.

I'll say it once again, after Sanzu got a Katana, he's relative to Kakucho and defeated him, depsite the massive speed gap, with a metal pipe he's only Ran's level, and you all know the massive speed gap between Ran and Kakucho.

Sanzu won against Kakucho due to the fact that Katana "can kill instantly", so the instant lethality of the weapon is the problem.

This literally doesn't mean shit in saying they're supersonic or above, you keep bringing it up and saying you keep saying it but how many times do we have to tell you THAT DOES NOT SUPPORT these characters being bullet timers or anywhere from supersonic to high hypersonic like you guys are so keen on calcing.

I can't speak on this enough none of this is sufficent and saying "the narrative supports it itself" isn't providing the direct scans and statements I asked for nor does it get you anywhere not on this wiki since your job is to provide said narrative scans

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

You're arguments have not been just ignored and commented on in every thread ever, they have been rejected as they weren't sufficient enough. You're not going to sit here and say in the dozens of threads that I've seen about a dozen CGMs and other staff comment on thay they all just ignored all the arguments. Playing like a victim here isn't supporting you.

They were NEVER addressed, link me where they refuted it, I'll gladly wait.

This literally doesn't mean shit in saying they're supersonic or above, you keep bringing it up and saying you keep saying it but how many times do we have to tell you THAT DOES NOT SUPPORT these characters being bullet timers or anywhere from supersonic to high hypersonic like you guys are so keen on calcing.

WHEN THE **** DID I SAY THEY SHOULD BE THAT AND THAT?

All I'm saying is that my arguments NEUTRALIZE the default assumption that speed is the problem.

 

[Dalesean027]

They were NEVER addressed, link me where they refuted it, I'll gladly wait.

You really wanna do this to yourself, like there are verifiable dozens of threads and blogs where all of these feats themselves were commented on by CGMs. Like us even having a CGMs only thread as well, you really wanna do that lol.

WHEN THE ***** DID I SAY THEY SHOULD BE THAT AND THAT?

All I'm saying is that my arguments NEUTRALIZE the default assumption that speed is the problem

Through the blogs you all are using in this thread in your arguments and via naturr of your arguments themself.

And I've told you several times they do not neutralize or debunk anything your arguments are not sufficent to amount to anything that could even begin to resemble several higher tiers of speed being supported.


With this said I'll leave it to other staff evaluations and stomp commenting to give them time catch up and give their thoughts on this all. My stance is firm and so I'm gonna wait.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Anyway, can we solve this by creating discussion rules? I am not intending to obstruct the discussion by @Dalesean027 and others; however, I am concerned that this discussion may be subject to interminable and non-concluding threads.

@Dalesean027 Any idea how you would like to have them? I would be happy to assist you with rephrasing such a rule.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

You really wanna do this to yourself, like there are verifiable dozens of threads and blogs where all of these feats themselves were commented on by CGMs. Like us even having a CGMs only thread as well, you really wanna do that lol.

Nah, I'm saying link me messages where my arguments were addressed, and no I don't post them on dozen thread, only twice, one is the speed calcs conclusion thread and the other one is the chifuyu feat.

Through the blogs you all are using in this thread in your arguments and via naturr of your arguments themself.

I'm referring to my specific post, the part 2 of 5th point.

And I've told you several times they do not neutralize or debunk anything your arguments are sufficent to amount to anything that could even begin to resemble several higher tiers of speed being supported.

If they don't neutralize it, debunk it here and now.

I think we should proceed to scale Kakucho to Ran if you keep disagreeing but refusing to debunk them then.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

too many assumptions are present the biggest one being how far away he as before Kisaki started shooting

Sorry I missed this part of your post.

No I am not referring to this, I’m referring to the pushing itself. That bit is clear. We will deal with this one later.

 

[Dalesean027]

Anyway, can we solve this by creating discussion rules? I am not intending to obstruct the discussion by @Dalesean027 and others; however, I am concerned that this discussion may be subject to interminable and non-concluding threads.

@Dalesean027 Any idea how bsasing such a rule.

We simply should create a rule against the creation of threads regarding upgrades of Tokyo Revengers characters to speeds of Supersonic or higher due to their outliery nature and the several dozens of times CGMs have chimed in and rejected and debunked said feats. That is to say that without valid support of said tiers from the anime interperations of the feats themself or author statements then such threads should not be allowed.

No I am not referring to this, I’m referring to the pushing itself.

Ah then this is fine sure, go for it

If they don't neutralize it, debunk it here and now.

I think we should proceed to scale Kakucho to Ran if you keep disagreeing but refusing to debunk them then.

There's quite literally nothing to debunk there the reasonings you gave as a whole simply do not in any capacity justify character being several tiers of speed higher than where they currently are, like quite literally nothing there has any bearing on the characters being bullet timers lol its simply just insufficient as an argument and evidence.
The only thing this serves as proof is is that of a scaling chain of subsonic speeds we currently have accepted

With that said imma gts

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

like quite literally nothing there has any bearing on the characters being bullet timers

But it doesn't say they're below it

There's quite literally nothing to debunk there

Ok, so Sanzu with a Katana is above Kakucho.
And Sanzu with metal pipe (around similar length as katana) is massively inferior to Kakucho.

So Kakucho is simultaneously a lot faster and a bit weaker than Sanzu.
Is that what we are gonna go by?

 

[ImmortalDread]

We simply should create a rule against the creation of threads regarding upgrades of Tokyo Revengers characters to speeds of Supersonic or higher due to their outliery nature and the several dozens of times CGMs have chimed in and rejected and debunked said feats. That is to say that without valid support of said tiers from the anime interperations of the feats themself or author statements then such threads should not be allowed.

Alright, I have a superficial idea of what it should look like.

May you (or anyone else) give me all the threads regarding this, so I can include it in the draft.

 

[Zefra3011]

But it doesn't say they're below it

Ok, so Sanzu with a Katana is above Kakucho.
And Sanzu with metal pipe (around similar length as katana) is massively inferior to Kakucho.

So Kakucho is simultaneously a lot faster and a bit weaker than Sanzu.
Is that what we are gonna go by?

A katana "increase" your AS, you arm will move at X speed while the katana at far higher speed, for Ran... Don't we only see Ran hitting Sanzu ones? Which Is more a reaction thing, they dont really fight, also I don't think you can swing a metal pipe as you do with a katana.

 

[RoggerReggor]

URL unfurl="true"]https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blogalesean027/Takemichi_dodges_a_Bullet[/URL]

Pretty sure the guy just missed the bullet. If Takemichi tried to apply his own strength to put Senju down, then he should fall ahead of her according to physics, that speed shouldn't be possible if Takemichi just sets himself jumping in the air. Also, the goon was also shocked how did he miss, he shouldn't be if Takemichi just happened to dodge it.

Still, I guess the speeds would still be fine because Takemichi is around the level already.