Fang vs Neck: Jabra vs Kaku

[RoronoaxRobin]

Unless I'm tripping thats only stated for thriller bark can you show the actual statement tho.
Also he does a combined attack with pre enies lobby luffy...

Zoro doesn't have moon walk so I dont think this is a good comparison. Also can you actually show what ur talking abt cuz I'm not that familiar with zoro vs kaku.

Jabura didn't clash with the incomplete version ≠ couldnt clash with the complete version, simply means he was playing it safe and saw no reason to exert himself to an extreme degree...

Alr so I dont see how you can argue it gives him an edge in combat if you cant even determine how good he is at predicting...

This covers Alabasta, Enies Lobby, and Thriller Bark





Eminiteable had a translation of Zoro's Pre-TS Vivre Card that proved he was equal to Luffy in Sabaody, but if you want to see it you'll have to ask him for since it's own his Twitter page and that's private.

Also he does a combined attack with pre enies lobby luffy...

They did it in Water 7, which further supports Luffy and Zoro being equal during the entire saga

Zoro doesn't have moon walk so I dont think this is a good comparison. Also can you actually show what ur talking abt cuz I'm not that familiar with zoro vs kaku.

Jabra had Moon Walk and still didn't use it to avoid an incomplete Amane Dachi, and even if he did use it against the final, stronger version I don't see him being successful because of how large it is.

As for the second part, did you mean Zoro and Kaku outpredicting each other? Here you go:

https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics/0413-009.png

https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics/0416-009.png

https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics/0416-010.png

https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics/0416-011.png

https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics/0416-017.png

https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics/0417-004.png

https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics/0417-005.png

Jabura didn't clash with the incomplete version ≠ couldnt clash with the complete version, simply means he was playing it safe and saw no reason to exert himself to an extreme degree...

Actually, the Tekkai expert not clashing with the incomplete version and being forced to dodge it instead does = couldn't clash with the complete version. It implies even the incomplete one could bypass Jabra's tekkai.

Alr so I dont see how you can argue it gives him an edge in combat if you cant even determine how good he is at predicting...

Okay, at this point Zoro already had 2 forms of Analytical Prediction and yet Kaku was still able to outpredict him during their fight. That's how skilled Kaku was.

 

[Nierre]

You literally said Kaku's body and swords were an advantage, when those can't even do damage to his Tekkai.

I said an advantage in close range, his swords can still pressure him, and I personally don't believe that he's unable to do damage.

Even Sanji after a combo/barrage kicks could do little damage, so with multiple weapons pressuring him, I don't see how he can't.

 

[Nierre]

What is danmaku?

Like a multitude of attacks, kinda. Think of Kizaru's Yasakani no Magatama or Katakuri's Mochi Barrage

Kaku has (at least how i understood it) Rankyaku Danmaku

 

[Nierre]

I think kaku will only have the range advantage with his neck as otherwise their limbs seem pretty similar.

Swords > fists
And Kaku ABUSES his range with his neck and his swords, so I wouldn't just say "other than the neck it doesn't really matter"

I think Jabra makes it up as he can clash with his swords by using tekkai on top of his good durability.

Yep, I agree.

eeh I can see him being at a disadvantage in the sense kaku can pressure him more effectively in cqc but i don't think Jabra even tends to fight in long extended trades of cqc so it doesn't make a significant difference. (look at the scans kachon sent for reference)

Nah I completely agree lol, if you saw my second post (where i voted incon before switching my vote) I even mentioned that he would. I just think Kaku wins more times than not due to his advantages.

Don't know why people are acting like I'm saying Jabra won't/can't win, when that's far from the case. I LITERALLY voted Incon because I wasn't too positive on who'd win more times than not, but I changed my vote because I felt like Kaku would win a bit more times than not due to his advantages. That doesn't mean I don't think Jabra cannot win though.

not referring to you tho Zkillerz, u chill

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

Scaling it any other way causes inconsistencies, so it's just Ashura to G3.

And I guess maybe Base to Base too due to that feat against Aqua Laguna, but everything in between Zoro doesn't scale to Luffy.

That sucks.

Anyway, I think Kaku still wins and I'll give a new argument for why tomorrow.

 

[ZKillerz]

This covers Alabasta, Enies Lobby, and Thriller Bark





Eminiteable had a translation of Zoro's Pre-TS Vivre Card that proved he was equal to Luffy in Sabaody, but if you want to see it you'll have to ask him for since it's own his Twitter page and that's private.

Ok that makes more sense
Although I dont think this really does much for kaku regardless.

They did it in Water 7, which further supports Luffy and Zoro being equal during the entire saga

I dont think they can realistically be equal as lucci is portrayed and shown to be much stronger than kaku meaning zoro shouldn't have struggled as much against him if he were truly equal to luffy. So as others have said he's probably only on par with luffy while using ashura which Kaku obviously doesn't scale to.

Jabra had Moon Walk and still didn't use it to avoid an incomplete Amane Dachi

And? We literally just see him outrun the technique which is even worse than ducking or jumping...

and even if he did use it against the final, stronger version I don't see him being successful because of how large it is.

How wide is the technique?

As for the second part, did you mean Zoro and Kaku outpredicting each other? Here you go:

Nah I was asking for the scan of zoro not being capable of dodging kaku's refined sky slicer

Actually, the Tekkai expert not clashing with the incomplete version and being forced to dodge it instead does = couldn't clash with the complete version. It implies even the incomplete one could bypass Jabra's tekkai.

Or simply that Jabra didn't want to exert himself and use tekkai to withstand the technique and found it more wise to simply dodge it... And even if he would take damage from the attack that doesn't prove he couldn't clash with or tank it, because there is a difference from taking damage and getting 1 shot.

Edit: an example of this would be blueno taking damage from sanji's kick yet not having his tekkai broken and still being relatively fine. In this case all we know is that its implied Jabra is weary of Kaku's attack, nothing implies it would deal severe damage or one shot him.

Okay, at this point Zoro already had 2 forms of Analytical Prediction and yet Kaku was still able to outpredict him during their fight. That's how skilled Kaku was.

Where does it show kaku out-predicting zoro?
It literally shows kaku thinking he out-predicted zoro and then acknowledging he underestimated him after its revealed he didn't actually dodge the attack

 

[ZKillerz]

Swords > fists

Yeah I forgot to factor in the range he gains from his swords.

And Kaku ABUSES his range with his neck and his swords, so I wouldn't just say "other than the neck it doesn't really matter"

Fair

Yep, I agree.

Nah I completely agree lol, if you saw my second post (where i voted incon before switching my vote) I even mentioned that he would. I just think Kaku wins more times than not due to his advantages.

How would you suppose Kaku deals with Jabra using his omni directional movement amped with soru to attack him from multiple angles?

 

[noisyPitta]

Interested to see where this goes, its not every day you get a matchup this close with genuine arguments being made on both sides. Feel free to try and convince me either way, my mind is not made up on this yet.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Voting Jabra FRA or inconclusive via the rule of "both arguments are good, inconclusive match up"

But I am more convinced with Jabra winning

 

[ZKillerz]

This match looking like its gonna be incon

 

[noisyPitta]

At least it will be incon due to being a close tie and not just a 'neither character can do anything to eachother'

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Yeah, feels like there's a likely chance for this to be incon as well

 

[AnAverageUsername]

At least it will be incon due to being a close tie and not just a 'neither character can do anything to eachother'

The best type of incon, to hell with goofy stalemates due to both not affecting eachother

 

[Nierre]

yeah. I think when arguments start to slow down and the votes are really close, inconclusive is fair.

 

[Lynieryz]

There's not much I can say since what I think would define the winner has already been said several times here, Jabra can use Tekkai while moving, greater mobility, Greater experience with Devil Fruit and consequently greater zoan amp.

Jabra FRA

 

[Kachon123]

Can you explain why throwing your neck at someone who can tear it with claws is an advantage?

Like, the other advantages are barely advantages as well as they're nulled by Tekkai Kenpo and I am pretty sure Jabra has used his legs to kick/slash once or twice (not a whole style for Jabra sure, but saying someone using 4 limbs is an advantage seems at the very least a stretch) but the point is that using your neck as a weapon isn't a smart move at all, imagine a human throwing their heart at someone as a grenade, does that look like a smart move?

Is this a vote for Jabra?

 

[XDragnoir]

I said an advantage in close range, his swords can still pressure him, and I personally don't believe that he's unable to do damage.

The scaling literally puts Jabra's Tekkai above Kaku's average Rankyaku

Tekkai > Jabra's Dura > Jabra's AP ~ Kaku's AP < Rankyaku

Even Sanji after a combo/barrage kicks could do little damage, so with multiple weapons pressuring him, I don't see how he can't.

That's a feat for Sanji, not an anti-feat for Jabra, we've seen other attacks from Sanji be ineffective against Jabra, that means that barrage was stronger than his normal attacks (which is pretty normal for barrage attacks, they are most of the time a surge of power and speed that puts them above the users normal kicks and punches).

That sucks.

You can do a CRT if you want, I guess.

 

[Eseseso]

Odd that Emin hasn't said anything, dude knows a lot on Kaku.

 

[Nierre]

imma unfollow due to uninterest

if Emin joins lmk

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Nierre really just dipping till he can get his homie Emin for backup, that's crazy.

Anyway.

Ngl, I really dislike the notion that some people are using Sanji breaking through Jabra's tekkai as proof that it's weaker than Kaku's, instead of the, much more reasonable assumption, that Sanji's stronger kicks are capable of breaking through Kaku-level Tekkai. Just seems weird and kinda biased to assume Sanji doing so inherently makes it weak, instead of Sanji just having high striking power in Enies Lobby.

Still firmly In the Jabra camp rn.

 

[Ryuga21]

Jabra for all has been said above, but he also seems to have a better recovery time than Kaku (because of the cover story scene). So I believe that in a long fight he would won due stamina.

 

[Nierre]

Nierre really just dipping till he can get his homie Emin for backup, that's crazy.

I don't need him for backup
I just wanted to know his view on the match lol

 

[Eseseso]

Jabra for all has been said above, but he also seems to have a better recovery time than Kaku (because of the cover story scene).

Fr Kaku has no excuse.

Jabra literally had his bones set on fire via dura neg, Kaku took only external damage that didn't even tear his clothes.

Jabra probably has better stamina, dude was fine after the first DJ attack which dura negged him and only lost due to his guard being down, which let Sanji use DJ on him before he could guard himself.

My vote isn't changing, just noting that.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Funny how Blueno just outlast both of them with an infinite supply of noodles in his dimension

 

[Eseseso]

For the "Hybrid vs Hybrid" argument, Kaku's Rankyaku should be above Jabra's since Kaku specializes in Rankyaku, just like how Jabra specializes in offensive Tekkai.

Also, Kaku can use Tekkai on part of his body while moving, just not all of it like Jabra.

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

Ok that makes more sense
Although I dont think this really does much for kaku regardless.

I don't see why not. Even with the wiki deciding EL Luffy and Zoro were only equal in Base and Asura and G3, it should still mean Zoro and Kaku are closer to Luff and Lucci than they are to Sanji and Jabra.

I dont think they can realistically be equal as lucci is portrayed and shown to be much stronger than kaku meaning zoro shouldn't have struggled as much against him if he were truly equal to luffy. So as others have said he's probably only on par with luffy while using ashura which Kaku obviously doesn't scale to.

Zoro and Luffy's Siege Cannon and Zoro repeatedly being compared to Captains in that saga says otherwise.

Are you only saying this because of Lucci's and Kaku's Doriki scores? Kaku in his Hybrid Form cut a tower in half and the only comparable feat Lucci in his Hybrid Form has to that is cutting up a ship. He wasn't THAT far above Kaku. They were also the only two CP9 member entrusted with a unique mission when it came to Robin: Lucci had to guard her, while Kaku was tasked with protecting the real keys to her handcuffs, which is an implication that both their strengths were on a different level compared to the other agents (including Jabra). I think people focus too much the difference of their Dorikis, EL Kaku's overall strength was a lot more comparable to EL Lucci than people give him credit for.

And? We literally just see him outrun the technique which is even worse than ducking or jumping...

Jabra outran the demo version, not the full power version Kaku was confident that Zoro couldn't dodge.

How wide is the technique?

Nah I was asking for the scan of zoro not being capable of dodging kaku's refined sky slicer

Oh! My bad lol

Or simply that Jabra didn't want to exert himself and use tekkai to withstand the technique and found it more wise to simply dodge it... And even if he would take damage from the attack that doesn't prove he couldn't clash with or tank it, because there is a difference from taking damage and getting 1 shot.

Edit: an example of this would be blueno taking damage from sanji's kick yet not having his tekkai broken and still being relatively fine. In this case all we know is that its implied Jabra is weary of Kaku's attack, nothing implies it would deal severe damage or one shot him.

Jabra, who prides himself on his Tekkai so much that he revolved his fighting style around it, suddenly not wanting to exert himself to withstand a technique when we saw him doing it multiple times during EL implies Kaku's AD had the strength to bypass his Tekkai imo. Further supported by him saying "Not good!" while avoiding it.

You really think Jabra wouldn't take severe damage from Kaku's tower cutting Amane Dachi or one shot him if he gets hit by it? Jabra was being hurt through his tekkai by an already heavily damaged Sanji.

Where does it show kaku out-predicting zoro?
It literally shows kaku thinking he out-predicted zoro and then acknowledging he underestimated him after its revealed he didn't actually dodge the attack

Literally everything I posted shows Kaku predicting Zoro's moves (like him predicting Zoro's Shishi Sonson and countering with Rodon), that was the entire point of me doing it. Kaku didn't dodge it because Zoro was still able to predict further than he could. That's something he wouldn't have to worry about in this matchup since his opponent has zero prediction feats.

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

You can do a CRT if you want, I guess.

I HATE doing CRTs, so nah.

 

[Darkvie123]

I still honestly don't know about this or how it would give Kaku openings to give him an advantage.

Kaku usually uses his Rokushiki, Yontoryuu, and Zoan Forms together, and when he's not, he rarely switches between then mid-combat.

When we see him switch, it's usually at the beginning of a new exchange:

1. Attacks using Rokushiki and gets hit up by Zoro
2. At the beginning of his next barrage of attacks, switches to his swords but then gets hit by Zoro while trying to dodge one of his attacks
3. At the beginning of his next barrage of attacks, switches back to Rokushiki and hits Zoro away
4. After hitting Zoro away he goes back to his sword while stating he'd do so by the way and then gets overwhelmed
5. After getting overwhelmed, he goes right back to Rokushiki to charge Amane Dachi

There is no flow between switching abilities. There is no integration of his versatility in his fighting style that would allow him to be unpredictable or catch Jabra off-guard.

Kaku is definitely versatile, but the way he uses his versatility won't give him the opportunities you're claiming it would. Jabra is honestly comparably versatile.

Well, thats a good point. But in a high stakes battle against an opponent like Jabra, it's reasonable to expect that Kaku would adapt his tactics. He could strategically plan transitions between his different forms and techniques to exploit the unpredictability in brings. His versatile arsenal would give him a range of options to respond to different situations.

The element of surprise can be a potent weapon in a battle. Kaku's transitions could be used to catch Jabra off-guard, even if not seamlessly integrated into his style as seen in the manga. This unpredictability can lead to creating opportunities for Kaku to land more precise and decisive attacks.

The actual battle might unfold with inventive tactics and Kaku's strategy by showcasing his adaptability.

In Summary: The argument centers on Kaku's potential for adaptation and creative use of his versatility. The outcome of this fight imo would depend on how well Kaku exploits these abilities against Jabra's strengths and movements.

 

[ZKillerz]

I don't see why not. Even with the wiki deciding EL Luffy and Zoro were only equal in Base and Asura and G3, it should still mean Zoro and Kaku are closer to Luff and Lucci than they are to Sanji and Jabra.

If kaku withstood ashura and kept on fighting like lucci then I'd agree with you, but he literally got one shot.

Zoro and Luffy's Siege Cannon and Zoro repeatedly being compared to Captains in that saga says otherwise.

Yeah but that was base luffy's bazooka, and scaling to base luffy isn't all that impressive... Idk about what your referring to with him being compared to captains, but I'm only referring to enies lobby not thriller bark and sabaody.

Are you only saying this because of Lucci's and Kaku's Doriki scores?

uh yeah and its quite literally stated lucci was an unparalleled prodigy in cp9 history.

Kaku in his Hybrid Form cut a tower in half

I dont know why you keep bringing this up as if its a crazy ap feat...

and the only comparable feat Lucci in his Hybrid Form has to that is cutting up a ship.

No not really, feats from weaker characters in previous arcs were more impressive...

He wasn't THAT far above Kaku.

He's consistently portrayed to be a cut above the rest, saying otherwise would just be plain out bias.

They were also the only two CP9 member entrusted with a unique mission when it came to Robin: Lucci had to guard her, while Kaku was tasked with protecting the real keys to her handcuffs

Did Jabra not also have a key or am I tripping? Pretty sure they both had keys...

, which is an implication that both their strengths were on a different level compared to the other agents (including Jabra).

Can you show the statement

I think people focus too much the difference of their Dorikis

I mean their Doriki are pretty much all we have to go off of in enies lobby

EL Kaku's overall strength was a lot more comparable to EL Lucci than people give him credit for.

Based off of?

Jabra outran the demo version, not the full power version Kaku was confident that Zoro couldn't dodge.

All kaku said is that zoro had nowhere to run, which can just mean that zoro cannot escape the technique due to its radius/diameter, the same wouldn't apply to Jabra who could literally just jump onto a different floor using moon walk...

Jabra, who prides himself on his Tekkai so much that he revolved his fighting style around it, suddenly not wanting to exert himself to withstand a technique when we saw him doing it multiple times during EL implies Kaku's AD had the strength to bypass his Tekkai imo.

He prides himself in his skill with tekkai but this doesn't mean that he would unnecessarily exert himself. Kaido held pride in his durability yet still dodged a punch from base luffy in chapter 1009

Further supported by him saying "Not good!" while avoiding it.

All this means is that tanking/blocking sky slicer is not a cake walk for Jabra, he would rather dodge it...

You really think Jabra wouldn't take severe damage from Kaku's tower cutting Amane Dachi or one shot him if he gets hit by it? Jabra was being hurt through his tekkai by an already heavily damaged Sanji.

How does Sanji damaging Jabra prove anything?
Again there is a difference between regular and significant damage
Sanji could damage Blueno but couldn't break his tekkai, its the same for Jabra he needed diable jambe to properly break his tekkai.

Would Kaku damage Jabra with sky slicer? Of course, would it significantly damage him or break his tekkai? I dont think so, especially if Jabra uses his own technique to lessen the impact. And you haven't given a good reason for why he couldn't just dodge it with soru and sky walk.

Literally everything I posted shows Kaku predicting Zoro's moves (like him predicting Zoro's Shishi Sonson and countering with Rodon), that was the entire point of me doing it. Kaku didn't dodge it because Zoro was still able to predict further than he could. That's something he wouldn't have to worry about in this matchup since his opponent has zero prediction feats.

When does he predict zoro's shishisonson?
If he didn't dodge it wouldn't that just mean he doesn't scale to zoro's lvl of prediction?
That's fine I dont think Jabra needs to predict Kaku's attacks in order to win.

 

[That_moron2]

Aight. I am ready to elaborate.
Voting Kaku because I like him better.

 

[Kachon123]

Can you explain why throwing your neck at someone who can tear it with claws is an advantage?

Like, the other advantages are barely advantages as well as they're nulled by Tekkai Kenpo and I am pretty sure Jabra has used his legs to kick/slash once or twice (not a whole style for Jabra sure, but saying someone using 4 limbs is an advantage seems at the very least a stretch) but the point is that using your neck as a weapon isn't a smart move at all, imagine a human throwing their heart at someone as a grenade, does that look like a smart move?

Is this a vote for Jabra?

 

[XDragnoir]

Well, thats a good point. But in a high stakes battle against an opponent like Jabra, it's reasonable to expect that Kaku would adapt his tactics. He could strategically plan transitions between his different forms and techniques to exploit the unpredictability in brings. His versatile arsenal would give him a range of options to respond to different situations.

The element of surprise can be a potent weapon in a battle. Kaku's transitions could be used to catch Jabra off-guard, even if not seamlessly integrated into his style as seen in the manga. This unpredictability can lead to creating opportunities for Kaku to land more precise and decisive attacks.

The actual battle might unfold with inventive tactics and Kaku's strategy by showcasing his adaptability.

In Summary: The argument centers on Kaku's potential for adaptation and creative use of his versatility. The outcome of this fight imo would depend on how well Kaku exploits these abilities against Jabra's strengths and movements.

That's a week argument to say the least, it's literally "Kaku may be able to do something against Jabra's advantages even if he never did that in canon".

This entire "unpredictability" is based on using his DF to change his shape and what not which for sure can be used to throw someone off but this is hardly a way to bypass a gap in stats and combat versatility (which Jabra has over Kaku as he uses more than just Rankyaku in his fighting style)

Also, do we just ignore both Kaku and Jabra have Kenbu in their profiles or what? I think it's strange no one brought it up as far as I could see.

Anyway, Jabra FRA

 

[Kachon123]

Grace

 

[Eminiteable]

Grace

Voting Kaku fra

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Zoro fra

 

[ZKillerz]

Voting Kaku fra

Yo eminiteable what do you think abt the arguments presented so far?

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

I don't see why not. Even with the wiki deciding EL Luffy and Zoro were only equal in Base and Asura and G3, it should still mean Zoro and Kaku are closer to Luff and Lucci than they are to Sanji and Jabra.

I disagree. Kaku getting one-shotted by Asura doesn't mean he's not closer to Lucci than he is to Jabra, who was ultimately two-shotted by a heavily injured opponent.

Yeah but that was base luffy's bazooka, and scaling to base luffy isn't all that impressive... Idk about what your referring to with him being compared to captains, but I'm only referring to enies lobby not thriller bark and sabaody.

That wasn't the point, but obviously Base Zoro would scale to Base Luffy's stronger attacks since they're equal

As for the Captain comparisons, I was referring to when one of Franky's subordinates does it after Zoro cuts the train in half with Rashomon on the way to Enies Lobby and then another Franky subordinate does it during Enies Lobby.

https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics/0371-010.png

uh yeah and its quite literally stated lucci was an unparalleled prodigy in cp9 history.

But Doriki readings don't take into account overall strength/various amps

Kaku may not have a statement of being an unparalleled prodigy, but he's still a genius in his own right with potential that's greater than Jabra's (surpassed him while he was away on the W7 mission for 5 years) and also implied to be greater than even Lucci's (awakened his Devil Fruit in less time than Luccid did during the timeskip).

I dont know why you keep bringing this up as if its a crazy ap feat...

I keep bringing it up because Jabra factually doesn't have any AP feats on that level. It may not be the craziest feat, but trying to act like it isn't an impressive feat of power (especially around that time of the story) is frankly ridiculous.

To add to this, Zoro and Kaku were also fighting each other so hard that Sanji wondered if trying to destroy the tower. That's another reason why I don't believe FP Kaku and FP Jabra are as close as their Doriki scores.

https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics/0416-003.png

And while I have only been just mainly mentioning Amane Dachi, Kaku obviously has more powerful moves that would do heavy damage to Jabra and break his tekkai, like Kaku's stronger than normal Rankyakus, Bigan, Kilimanjaro, Henchikirin, Mochikirin, Gekirin, etc.

No not really, feats from weaker characters in previous arcs were more impressive...

Doesn't matter if that's true or not since we're talking about Jabra and Kaku

He's consistently portrayed to be a cut above the rest, saying otherwise would just be plain out bias.

I'm not denying Lucci wasn't above Kaku and the other CP9 agents, I'm just saying I don't think his overall strength was that far above Kaku's.

Did Jabra not also have a key or am I tripping? Pretty sure they both had keys...

Kaku, Jabra, Kumadori, Fukurou, and Kalifa were all given keys, but Kaku was the one entrusted with the key that actually unlocked Robin's handcuffs

Can you show the statement

There is no statement, I was saying that as more of a portrayal thing.

I mean their Doriki are pretty much all we have to go off of in enies lobby

I don't think so

Based off of?

Based off of feats and portrayal

All kaku said is that zoro had nowhere to run, which can just mean that zoro cannot escape the technique due to its radius/diameter, the same wouldn't apply to Jabra who could literally just jump onto a different floor using moon walk...

Again, if Jabra didn't think Moon Walk would help him avoid the demo Sky Slicer, is it really gonna help him avoid the genuine article?

He prides himself in his skill with tekkai but this doesn't mean that he would unnecessarily exert himself. Kaido held pride in his durability yet still dodged a punch from base luffy in chapter 1009

He did during the fight with Sanji

All this means is that tanking/blocking sky slicer is not a cake walk for Jabra, he would rather dodge it...

Or it could mean the tekkai expert is just that scared of it hitting him

How does Sanji damaging Jabra prove anything?
Again there is a difference between regular and significant damage
Sanji could damage Blueno but couldn't break his tekkai, its the same for Jabra he needed diable jambe to properly break his tekkai.

It proves that if a heavily damaged Sanji can hurt Jabra even while he's using Tekkai, then of course a fresher Kaku would be able to, especially given how destructive Kaku's attacks are.

Would Kaku damage Jabra with sky slicer? Of course, would it significantly damage him or break his tekkai? I dont think so, especially if Jabra uses his own technique to lessen the impact. And you haven't given a good reason for why he couldn't just dodge it with soru and sky walk.

Why wouldn't Kaku's strongest move at full power significantly damage or even break Jabra's tekkai? If he didn't think his own technique could lessen the impact of a demo of Sky Slicer and outran it instead, I don't see him trying to do it with the full powered one.

When does he predict zoro's shishisonson?
If he didn't dodge it wouldn't that just mean he doesn't scale to zoro's lvl of prediction?
That's fine I dont think Jabra needs to predict Kaku's attacks in order to win.

I thought I already pointed it out to you but here's Kaku predicting Shishi Sonson and countering it with his Rodan attack

https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics/0416-016.png

https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics/0416-017.png

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

Well, that was my last argument for this matchup

 

[ZKillerz]

I disagree. Kaku getting one-shotted by Asura doesn't mean he's not closer to Lucci than he is to Jabra, who was ultimately two-shotted by a heavily injured opponent.

? All I'm saying is that kaku at best scales to base luffy. He has no scaling to g2/g3 luffy as he got one shot...

That wasn't the point, but obviously Base Zoro would scale to Base Luffy's stronger attacks since they're equal

Alright thats fine

As for the Captain comparisons, I was referring to when one of Franky's subordinates does it after Zoro cuts the train in half with Rashomon on the way to Enies Lobby and then another Franky subordinate does it during Enies Lobby.

Those franky pirates never seen luffy's full strength.

But Doriki readings don't take into account overall strength/various amps

You haven't given me a good reason for why kaku's overall strength and amps makes him relative to lucci...

Kaku may not have a statement of being an unparalleled prodigy, but he's still a genius in his own right with potential that's greater than Jabra's (surpassed him while he was away on the W7 mission for 5 years) and also implied to be greater than even Lucci's (awakened his Devil Fruit in less time than Luccid did during the timeskip).

If there was some dynamic between Lucci and Kaku being rivals then I could understand where this argument comes from, but so far you literally have nothing to suggest Kaku scales in any way to fp Lucci.

Do we know when Lucci and Kaku awakened their df? Sounds like headcanon.

Even if we did your simply speaking towards Kaku's capacity to outgrow his competitors with training, I'm not interested in his potential I'm moreso interested in the strength he is at the time of enies lobby.

I keep bringing it up because Jabra factually doesn't have any AP feats on that level. It may not be the craziest feat, but trying to act like it isn't an impressive feat of power (especially around that time of the story) is frankly ridiculous.

Pretty sure we currently have Pre ts Jabra as City lvl, so your telling me splitting a tower in half is more impressive than City lvl ap? I'll believe it when you show me the calc that proves its higher than where we currently rate Jabra.

To add to this, Zoro and Kaku were also fighting each other so hard that Sanji wondered if trying to destroy the tower. That's another reason why I don't believe FP Kaku and FP Jabra are as close as their Doriki scores.

Again zoro and kaku being capable of dealing more collateral damage to the tower they are fighting in does not equate to them being stronger at all...

And while I have only been just mainly mentioning Amane Dachi, Kaku obviously has more powerful moves that would do heavy damage to Jabra and break his tekkai, like Kaku's stronger than normal Rankyakus, Bigan, Kilimanjaro, Henchikirin, Mochikirin, Gekirin, etc.

Why would any of these break his tekkai?

Doesn't matter if that's true or not since we're talking about Jabra and Kaku

what?
Blud if Jabra scales above characters that have better ap feats than splitting a tower in half how is that not relevant?

I'm not denying Lucci wasn't above Kaku and the other CP9 agents, I'm just saying I don't think his overall strength was that far above Kaku's.

Why would Kaku be comparable?

Kaku, Jabra, Kumadori, Fukurou, and Kalifa were all given keys, but Kaku was the one entrusted with the key that actually unlocked Robin's handcuffs

Can you show this? And this could just mean that lucci trusts Kaku more than Jabra not that he's actually stronger.

There is no statement, I was saying that as more of a portrayal thing.

Ok then I disagree because portrayal is subjective

Based off of feats and portrayal

You haven't given me any solid portrayal arguments yet...

Again, if Jabra didn't think Moon Walk would help him avoid the demo Sky Slicer, is it really gonna help him avoid the genuine article?

Again I dont know why you keep ignoring the fact I mentioned that Jabra literally outran the radius of the technique which is harder than just jumping over it. Its not that Jabra "didn't think moon walk would be quick enough" because that makes no sense, jumping is faster than running, I hate this logic that just because a character didn't do a specific act that means he didn't think it would be viable.

He did during the fight with Sanji

How does this in any way respond to my point? Yes Jabra did tank attacks from sanji in their fight the same way Kaido tanked attacks from luffy in their fight.

This doesn't mean that they're 100% gonna tank every attack their opponent throws at them.

Tanking Kaku's attack there literally holds zero benefit to Jabra, why would he intentionally take damage and exert himself beyond what is necessary?

Or it could mean the tekkai expert is just that scared of it hitting him

That is a possibility sure, but so far you haven't proven your interpretation is more likely.

It proves that if a heavily damaged Sanji can hurt Jabra even while he's using Tekkai,

Thats not an anti feat how tf does kaku scale above sanji?

then of course a fresher Kaku would be able to, especially given how destructive Kaku's attacks are.

Why? Why does Kaku scale above sanji?

Why wouldn't Kaku's strongest move at full power significantly damage or even break Jabra's tekkai?

Why are you shifting the burden of proof? You said it would I'm the one asking you why.

If he didn't think his own technique could lessen the impact of a demo of Sky Slicer and outran it instead,

I already responded to this

I don't see him trying to do it with the full powered one.

I agree Jabra most likely dodges fp sky slicer, I'm just saying even if he didn't we have no reason to believe he couldn't withstand it.

I thought I already pointed it out to you but here's Kaku predicting Shishi Sonson and countering it with his Rodan attack

https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics/0416-016.png

https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics/0416-017.png

This just seems like Kaku reacting to zoro who is literally taking a sword stance by dishing out his own attack

Seeing your opponent preparing for an attack and doing the same is not "high level prediction" its just reacting to the fact your about to get hit with a technique...

 

[LordGinSama]

Jabra, Kaku's stronger attacks can definitely one shot but Jabra is simply much, much too agile for Kaku to land those attacks. Much like Sanji, Jabra is agile and one slipper target, both characters are very good against brick walls but it'd probably take Jabra a bit to break through Kaku's ridiculous zoan durability.