Sanji (Goat) vs Ryokugyu (Bull)

[Kachon123]

Base Kaku w/ Rokushiki fought S-Hawk on and off-screen.

And couldn't damage him.

It is literally the first clash in their fight.

And in every other scan we see that Zoan Yamato with Hao Infusion was somewhat relative, although clearly inferior to Hao Infusion Kaidou.

Claiming that her Base is relative to Kaidou's Hybrid Form is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Eseseso]

And couldn't damage him.

And? Luffy in Gear 4 w/o Hao, who hurt Zoan Kaido in a much weaker key, couldn't hurt them either.

Also, S-Hawk opted to dodge Kaku's Amane Dachi.

And in every other scan we see that Zoan Yamato with Hao Infusion was somewhat relative, although clearly inferior to Hao Infusion Kaidou.

Claiming that her Base is relative to Kaidou's Hybrid Form is absolutely ridiculous.

Her Hao is probably just a much larger boost than her Zoan form, I guess.

 

[Kachon123]

Her Hao is probably just a much larger boost than her Zoan form, I guess.

This doesn't debunk anything I just said.

And? Luffy in Gear 4 w/o Hao, who hurt Zoan Kaido in a much weaker key, couldn't hurt them either.

I'm not sure why you're acting like Lunarians having superior durability than Zoan Kaidou isn't already an established fact.

Also, S-Hawk opted to dodge Kaku's Amane Dachi.

Flimsy argument. King opted to block several attacks from pre-Hao Infusion Zoro. Does that mean that Zoro's attacks would have harmed him had he just stood there? No. We know that isn't the case.

 

[Eseseso]

This doesn't debunk anything I just said.

I'm not sure why you're acting like Lunarians having superior durability than Zoan Kaidou isn't already an established fact.

I'm just stating that Seraph durability > Seraph AP (as of right now).

Flimsy argument. King opted to block several attacks from pre-Hao Infusion Zoro. Does that mean that Zoro's attacks would have harmed him had he just stood there? No. We know that isn't the case.

There's a difference between blocking attacks and outright dodging them in place of blocking them.

 

[Kachon123]

There's a difference between blocking attacks and outright dodging them in place of blocking them.

And what is that difference?

 

[Eseseso]

And what is that difference?

People in OP only dodge an attack when trying to block and/or endure it is a bad idea.

Like Hybrid Kaido dodging a Red Rock. Or when Big Mom flat-out told him to dodge Enma.

Or King dodging KoH Zoro's attacks since he was fearing KoH Zoro's power.

 

[Kachon123]

People in OP only dodge an attack when trying to block and/or endure it is a bad idea.

Like Hybrid Kaido dodging a Red Rock. Or when Big Mom flat-out told him to dodge Enma.

Or King dodging KoH Zoro's attacks since he was fearing KoH Zoro's power.

 

[Kachon123]

People in OP only dodge an attack when trying to block and/or endure it is a bad idea.

Like Hybrid Kaido dodging a Red Rock. Or when Big Mom flat-out told him to dodge Enma.

Or King dodging KoH Zoro's attacks since he was fearing KoH Zoro's power.

Not sure how I forgot this as well.

 

[Eseseso]

Not sure how I forgot this as well.

That was while he was in the air and had far more space to maneuver, not point-blank like with S-Hawk and Kaku.

 

[ZKillerz]

I don't think holding back is the right word. The headband is used to mark Zoro being serious and he isn't wearing it. I don't think Kaku concretely scales above Kaidou
Anyway
Sanji Dura>Sera>Base Kaku<Awakened Kaku~Buso Zoro~Base Kaidou
Base Kaidou<Hybrid Kaidou~Zoan Yamato Dura>Yamato<Greenbull

sanji's durability is superior to the seraphim?
Gb only fights injured base yamato, and she was told not to fight back so. Thats not enough to scale him to her concretely

 

[Eseseso]

sanji's durability is superior to the seraphim?

Bruh, the dude was no-selling hits from S-Shark without even guarding himself.

 

[ZKillerz]

Bruh, the dude was no-selling hits from S-Shark without even guarding himself.

Yeah your right, I thought he was trying to say sanji's durbaility > seraphim durability. If he's only talking about their ap then that's fine

 

[Kachon123]

That was while he was in the air and had far more space to maneuver, not point-blank like with S-Hawk and Kaku.

I thought that dodging means that they had no other choice but to do so?

 

[Eseseso]

I thought that dodging means that they had no other choice but to do so?

There's a difference when you're in the air and have every chance to dodge, and point blank where you opt to dodge despite being able to counter the normal Rokushiki attacks.

Also, we see King eat an Enma attack, so we already know he can take worse than a Phoenix.

 

[Kachon123]

Also, we see King eat an Enma attack, so we already know he can take worse than a Phoenix.

And we see S-Hawk take Shishi Sonson and a Haki-coated Purgatory Onigiri. I don't see your point here.

 

[Eseseso]

And we see S-Hawk take Shishi Sonson and a Haki-coated Purgatory Onigiri. I don't see your point here.

I mean ShiShi Sonson is dura neg but fair point on the Buso Onigiri.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Aramaki should win handily. I'll explain why later but he gets my vote due to having superior stats in basically everything but speed so far.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Bump

 

[Kachon123]

Spoiler: Stats

AP: Sanji

Sanji IFJ + SS > Sanji IJ > Sanji DJ + Sanji SS > Sanji DJ > Queen's Mech > Marco's Zoan Dura ~ Admirals ~ Aramaki

Speed: Sanji

Sanji IFJ + SS > Sanji IJ > Sanji DJ + SS > Sanji SS > Queen's Perception ~ Zoan Marco ~ Admirals ~ Aramaki

Durability: Sanji

Sanji Buso > Sanji IFJ Boeuf Burst > Sanji DJ > Sanji Queen Mech >~ Sanji Exo > Zoan Marco ~ Admirals ~ Aramaki

Endurance: Sanji

Buso: Sanji

Current Sanji > Raid Sanji > Beginning of Wano Sanji > Dressrosa-WCI Sanji > FMI-Punk Hazard Sanji (4 to 5)

Aramaki ~ Issho ~> Sabo > Burgess (2 to 3)

Kenbun: Sanji

Stamina: Sanji

Skill: Sanji

Range: Aramaki

Lifting Strength: Aramaki

I'm voting Sanji here.

He has greater durability, speed, Haki, stamina, endurance, and mobility options through Sky Walk. While Aramaki might have a chance to beat Sanji by using his LS through his vines and attempting to pierce him, there are several issues with this strategy.

Sanji's exceptional speed makes it incredibly challenging for Aramaki to track him, let alone make physical contact, especially when Sanji is at his max speed. Even if we assume Aramaki could manage to catch Sanji, another issue arises. Sanji could simply ignite both himself and anything he touches, engulfing them in flames. While Aramaki has a defense against fire with his Firebreak Forest, it's not reasonable to assume he could do the same to counter Sanji's flames, as it would be NLF. Even if he could counter Sanji's fire, its intense heat would have already completed its impact before Aramaki could respond, freeing Sanji. In the even more unlikely scenario that Sanji doesn't resort to igniting Aramaki's vines, he'd be able to take his attacks without getting impaled. Apart from his innate durability, Sanji's Exoskeleton also gives him resistance to bladed weaponry, which include the piercing nature of Aramaki's vines. Furthermore, Sanji could enhance his Exoskeleton with Busō, further strengthening his defense against bladed weapons. Additionally, due to Sanji's superior Busō, Aramaki's vines would either shatter or throb, harming to Aramaki himself.

As for how Sanji would win, I could see him starting out without his Exoskeleton and struggling to continuously avoid Aramaki's vines. As he starts to get overwhelmed, Sanji would then activate his Exoskeleton, enhancing his stats to another level. Now, Sanji would be able to easily dodge Aramaki's attacks, using Sky Walk and his speed to evade any hits. Once he sees an opening, Sanji would likely use his Enhanced Speed, allowing him to move faster than Aramaki's eyes could see. In this state, Sanji would probably activate Diable Jambe, targeting Aramaki's vital points. These attacks would inflict damage, but Aramaki's ability to regenerate would help him recover. Aramaki would probably use the time it would take for Sanji to recover from his kicks to restrain him with his vines. Sanji would then either incinerate the restraining vines or kick them off of him like he did to Queen's Winch Queen. After freeing himself, Sanji would again use his Enhanced Speed to create distance. At this point, Sanji would likely use Ifrit Jambe. With it, Sanji could replicate what Momonosuke's Bolo Breath did to Aramaki. While Aramaki could resprout himself a new body, I could definitely see Sanji use his Kenbun to know where Aramaki would try to resprout his body similar to how Ace saw each and every attack Whitebeard threw before he even threw them, and stomp out the sprout with a Ifrit Jambe coated leg.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

There's a lot of that that's wrong but since I can't address it all rn I'll just point out that Marco's body was pierced by Kizaru's lasers both in Base and Zoan form, so he wouldn't scale to them in terms of durability.

 

[Kachon123]

Marco's body was pierced by Kizaru's lasers both in Base and Zoan form, so he wouldn't scale to them in terms of durability.

Kizaru's lasers have dura neg properties, similar to how Ichiji's lasers were able to pierce Oven's body despite him not having the AP to do so normally.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Kizaru's lasers have dura neg properties, similar to how Ichiji's lasers were able to pierce Oven's body despite him not having the AP to do so normally.

Still, Marco's durability doesn't really scale anywhere, especially since we see Queen's bullets pierce him and King slice his wing off, there's nothing proving he has good durability (which is why he even has his fruit)

 

[Kachon123]

Still, Marco's durability doesn't really scale anywhere, especially since we see Queen's bullets pierce him and King slice his wing off, there's nothing proving he has good durability (which is why he even has his fruit

Considering we see his body take the force of his own attacks, I don't see what you mean by "his durability doesn't really scale anywhere"

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Considering we see his body take the force of his own attacks, I don't see what you mean by "his durability doesn't really scale anywhere"

Again it's circular scaling
Queen's mech and King could penetrate him
He made Zoan Queen cough blood profusely and openly say it hurt with an attack
Unless Queen's gun scales above his Zoan form somehow I really don't see why Marco would scale to his purposefully bad durability.

 

[Kachon123]

He made Zoan Queen cough blood profusely and openly say it hurt with an attack
Unless Queen's gun scales above his Zoan form somehow I really don't see why Marco would scale to his purposefully bad durability.

I don't see how Queen being damaged by Marco while being off-guard and being hit in a vital spot like the neck means anything in terms of the scaling of Queen's Mech.

We see Queen's body getting harmed by his lasers exploding on himself twice, but despite that, the gun itself was still fully intact. So to answer your question, yes, his gun and mechanical parts in general are more durable than his Zoan body.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I don't see how Queen being damaged by Marco while being off-guard and being hit in a vital spot like the neck means anything in terms of the scaling of Queen's Mech.

We see Queen's body getting harmed by his lasers exploding on himself twice, but despite that, the gun itself was still fully intact. So to answer your question, yes, his gun and mechanical parts in general are more durable than his Zoan body.

Being off guard wouldn't lower his durability but go off.

 

[ZKillerz]

Again it's circular scaling
Queen's mech and King could penetrate him
He made Zoan Queen cough blood profusely and openly say it hurt with an attack
Unless Queen's gun scales above his Zoan form somehow I really don't see why Marco would scale to his purposefully bad durability.

He would scale to his striking strength, also the attack he used on queen (which may be dura neg) can simply scale above his durability. He doesn't actually withstand the force generated by phoenix brand so I see no inconsistency here

Marco's physical ap = Marco's zoan dura < Queen's mech = Queen's zoan durability < Phoenix brand

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Well anyway, I think Aramaki wind due to having superior durability (taking an ACoC hit from base Yamato without much damage from it), superior AP (scaling to Issho, and he should also scale to Kuzan or Akainu since he was hired due to being strong enough to replace them), superior Haki (scaling above the Scabbards iirc), and superior LS (restraining Yamato, Zoan Momo, and the Scabbards).

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Only problem is that you can argue Sanji is faster, how ever Aramaki did manage to subdue Yamato (though she was told not to fight) flame off King and Queen, as well as react to the Scabbards and restrain some of them, so maybe speed isn't a problem for him either.

 

[Kachon123]

superior durability (taking an ACoC hit from base Yamato without much damage from it),

His durability isn't that great. He got completely impaled by the AP of Momonosuke's Bolo Breath, which should be relative, if not inferior to Dragon Kaidou's. Dragon Kaidou's Bolo Breath, which Post-Udon Luffy pretty much tanked. Sanji is far more durable than Aramaki.

superior AP (scaling to Issho, and he should also scale to Kuzan or Akainu since he was hired due to being strong enough to replace them)

From what we've seen, Aramaki scaling higher than Sanji in AP is bullshit, considering he couldn't even properly pierce Flame Off King with his attacks.

superior Haki (scaling above the Scabbards iirc)

The Scabbards have no layer scaling. Sanji has far superior Haki then them.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

His durability isn't that great. He got completely impaled by the AP of Momonosuke's Bolo Breath, which should be relative, if not inferior to Dragon Kaidou's. Dragon Kaidou's Bolo Breath, which Post-Udon Luffy pretty much tanked. Sanji is far more durable than Aramaki.

I mean it's a huge beam of fire vs a guy who's a living tree. What did you expect?

From what we've seen, Aramaki scaling higher than Sanji in AP is bullshit, considering he couldn't even properly pierce Flame Off King with his attacks.

I'm pretty sure he did dude, in fact it looked the exact same as Doflamingo's strings piercing weakened base Luffy's Armament.

The Scabbards have no layer scaling. Sanji has far superior Haki then them.

I'm pretty sure they do, but I'd have to look for it.

 

[Kachon123]

I mean it's a huge beam of fire vs a guy who's a living tree. What did you expect?

He got impaled by the AP of the blast, not the heat.

I'm pretty sure he did dude, in fact it looked the exact same as Doflamingo's strings piercing weakened base Luffy's Armament.

He did damage King, as shown by his reaction (groaning), but he didn't properly pierce Flame Off King in any way that would make him superior to the likes of Sanji at his peak.

I'm pretty sure they do, but I'd have to look for it.

They don't.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

No, no they weren't.

It was only Stussy who said it was "ominous", and that was still casual.

As for the verdict:

Sanji has a huge advantage in that he resists piercing damage, Greenbull's go-to, plus his flames out-heat what Greenbull has shown to resist. He is also naturally faster with enhanced speed.

The issue is that Greenbull is more durable (as he took a hit from Hao Yamato who even in base with just Hao Infusion matched a Hao clash with Hybrid Kaido), he has regen and superior stamina, and can just swamp Sanji with attacks until Sanji is exhausted (since Greenbull will be constantly regenerating his real body) and can be restrained.

Greenbull takes this extreme diff, his piercing is useless here but IMO he can outlast Sanji enough to restrain him.

Definitely not an extreme diff (low or mid at most honestly) but honestly can't he just keep throwing shit at Sanji until he catches him with his superior LS and start beating him until he's a bloody, dried husk?

 

[Kachon123]

Sanji until he catches him with his superior LS

Can you address Sanji's counters to this that I mentioned above?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Can you address Sanji's counters to this that I mentioned above?

You never mentioned counters to superior LS iirc.

 

[Kachon123]

You never mentioned counters to superior LS iirc.

Even if we assume Aramaki could manage to catch Sanji, another issue arises. Sanji could simply ignite both himself and anything he touches, engulfing them in flames. While Aramaki has a defense against fire with his Firebreak Forest, it's not reasonable to assume he could do the same to counter Sanji's flames, as it would be NLF. Even if he could counter Sanji's fire, its intense heat would have already completed its impact before Aramaki could respond, freeing Sanji. In the even more unlikely scenario that Sanji doesn't resort to igniting Aramaki's vines, he'd be able to take his attacks without getting impaled. Apart from his innate durability, Sanji's Exoskeleton also gives him resistance to bladed weaponry, which include the piercing nature of Aramaki's vines. Furthermore, Sanji could enhance his Exoskeleton with Busō, further strengthening his defense against bladed weapons. Additionally, due to Sanji's superior Busō, Aramaki's vines would either shatter or throb, harming to Aramaki himself.

Sanji would then either incinerate the restraining vines or kick them off of him like he did to Queen's Winch Queen. After freeing himself

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Firebreak Forest plus Armament and he's good to go

 

[Kachon123]

Did you not read what I said? Also, Sanji's fire would just burn through Aramaki's Buso.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

No it wouldn't. It didn't even burn through Queen's.

 

[Kachon123]

No it wouldn't. It didn't even burn through Queen's.

Queen already has busted natural heat resistance.