Sanji vs Marco

[Yoh_Asakura8]

Marco is more versatile, but what does that entail in this fight?

Better versatility, better experience as we have seen wehn both had their fair share of battle against 2 yonko commanders, sanji did not last a second against both and was floored flat out moments after marco was floored. Ch 1022 page 10.

His ranged attacks won't really land due to Sanji's greater speed and the starting distance of 10 meters,

again, marco was able to contend with admirals much faster than queen. You're still comparing what a marco who's not going all out at wano to a marineford wano where he was fully committed and engaged in battle. Admirals >> yonko commanders in speed, ap, dura etc.

and his regeneration doesn't really mean much due to Sanji's Haki, which I'll elaborate on later.

last time i checked Akainu had to move his real body out of the way to avoid marco's attack. No way shape and form is queen contending with Sasazuki's in any stat. Also he tanked a punch from garp without much damage. Unlike kuzan and shiryu. This compliments his durability. Sanji's haki is not up to scratch to even do much in this area.

Sanji, although having weaker Haki, would still be able to negate Marco's regeneration until Marco negates Sanji's regeneration negation with his own Haki.

?

The reason this is an important factor is because of Sanji's vast speed advantage.

Marco kept up with kizaru and other admirals. Sanji kept up with a yonko commander 2 and then got blitzed when that same yonko commander 2 decided to use niji's power ups. Stop it. ️

Marco would be spending most of his time and energy recovering from Sanji's Haki coated kicks to even try to fight back

Nah because he just does his immortal barrier inbetween straight away.

So yeah, Marco does have better Buso, but it isn't the advantage/wincon you would think it would be in this specific matchup.

Its a wincon because as we see, marco would be landing more hits on sanji due to his experience fighting many different types of fighters. We see his experience, versatility and such against king and queen when he made it look like a walk in the park. He did not miss a single beat in his attacks.

"Marco has the flight advantage" is a take I've also heard, which I'm confused on. Do we really consider flying via flapping 2 wings easier to fight in the air with to literally just running and jumping on the air? Sanji can quite literally change his directions on any axis at will without any issues and while continuing to fight, while Marco has to flap his wings.

This is not the point. The point is. Sanji isn't as skilled in aerial combat as you think he is.
1. He lost to doffy in a sky battle
2. He lost to judge in a aerial battle after implying its his forte.
3. He lost to a bunch of fodder big mom kids in aerial battle.
4. He lost to king in an aerial battle and marco dog walked king in that area.
if sanji and marco were to compete in an aerial battle my bet is on marco.

Marco having the upper hand due to his regen, their relative speed allowing Marco to keep up,

sanji to keep up*

Not gonna argue against how you see the battle going because that's just how you see it. Its valid but we see it going differently. Ofc, mine is in marco's favour.

 

[ZKillerz]

It does to me. In marco's favour.

Cap sanji slams (no bias )

Both had an even clash and was playing around with each other at 1st. 2nd engagement. Both couldn't do anything to each other till marco got distracted and tagged by sea stone.

I prefer the interpretation that both simply didn't do anything to each other rather than couldn't, how does this relate to sanji though?

no it does not in the slightest because marco's intension was not to defeat king or queen it was to stall. He's at the war as a substitute as i said before.
1. He was getting others into their positions.
2. He was looking out for the samurai and straw hats.
3. He was already using his flames to help those inflicted with virus.
4. He was fighting king and queen same time, stalling both.
5. You can tell the difference from his demeanor at marineford and wano.

Marco is actually shown to use more named attacks and techniques when fighting king and Queen than when he fought kizaru. I think marco would be putting in a similar amount if not more effort into stalling them.

He can do all these things without massively holding back in ap and speed which would be counter productive to the assignment itself.

If anything marineford was worse because he wasn't focused on fighting or stalling during the war, he was focused on protecting/saving ace which lead to him getting off-guarded multiple times...

My point made above why this isn't it.
Admirals >>> yonko commander.

Realistically speaking this is a case by case scenario it depends on the strength of the commander and admiral.

1. Marco wasn't trying.
2. Marco has been comparable to admirals.

1. No reason to assume he wasn't trying when he utilized multiple named attacks he hadn't used before.
2. Simply upscales sanji not a defeater, you haven't explained why sanji cant scale to or above the admirals.

Ima stop responding to these because marco definitely was hardly trying and was just there to aid them as a substitute. He's already been using his flames to help warm hundreds yet thousands of people infected by the virus.

You haven't really substantiated this interpretation with anything other than "he was attempting to stall king and queen" which I already explained doesn't mean he's holding back massively. If he was holding back to a massive extent he would have no reason to find the assignment difficult as he could just raise his strength accordingly, but he literally states that fighting both king and queen is difficult so he was struggling.

They're not identical because marco has speed feats to keep up with both king and queen the same time. As well as intercepting and keeping up with admirals.

I somewhat agree to this, marco was outspeeding king while the best you can get for pre exo skeleton sanji is being on par with flames on king.

this is something but again marco kept up with kizaru as they engaged in battle twice.

Still haven't explained why this couldn't just be a sanji upscale. Sanji being a perception lvl faster than marco isn't just "something" its a pretty huge advantage all things considered.

I would not say his durability comes even close to marco. Those bullets holes are always going to be an outliner due to fact marco's phoenix body seems to always work like a logia when it comes to piercing attacks. Take kizaru's laser for instance. He was riddled holes when in phoenix form. When his df powers got weakened by sea stone, he was got hit, yet no holes.

Yeah no I dont think so, marco's ability is regen oda goes out of his way to clarify that it doesn't work like a logia. So no reason to assume it does. Would be nice if you can show the screenshot of what ur talking about bro . Also I would like to add marco was afraid of perospero's candy arrow so chances are sanji has drastically superior durability.

this doesn't amount to anything. Marco is tactically better as he has more battle experience in leading warfare. He's here basically supervising everything making sure everything is ok and everyone is where they're suppose to be. Fought both king and queen who are just as tactical and intelligent. Not forgetting marco is also a doctor.

No not inherently. Fighting for longer does not equivalate to having more experience. While experience and time are linked they do not correlate one to one with each other. So sanji being a pirate for less time than marco does not mean he has the experience advantage as this would depend on the amount of tough scenarios marco was forced to adapt to which we have no idea of. I dont think he displayed any crazy fighting skills against Queen and King tbh.

 

[Kachon123]

snip

Is this a vote... or?

 

[ZKillerz]

Better versatility, better experience as we have seen wehn both had their fair share of battle against 2 yonko commanders, sanji did not last a second against both and was floored flat out moments after marco was floored. Ch 1022 page 10.

Sanji wasn't awakened so I dont think this is fair to use as an anti feat.

again, marco was able to contend with admirals much faster than queen. You're still comparing what a marco who's not going all out at wano to a marineford wano where he was fully committed and engaged in battle. Admirals >> yonko commanders in speed, ap, dura etc.

Why would the admirals be much faster than Queen? Even if they were arbitrarily faster you couldn't give anything to suggest they're perception lvls faster. (obviously referring to pre ts admirals not post ts)
Can you actually give a scale rather than saying admirals >>>> yonkou commanders

last time i checked Akainu had to move his real body out of the way to avoid marco's attack. No way shape and form is queen contending with Sasazuki's in any stat. Also he tanked a punch from garp without much damage. Unlike kuzan and shiryu. This compliments his durability. Sanji's haki is not up to scratch to even do much in this area.

No I think marco just didn't have the haki to surpass his logia intag. Why not? So? Garp wasn't using as much strength as he was against aokiji. Why?

Marco kept up with kizaru and other admirals. Sanji kept up with a yonko commander 2 and then got blitzed when that same yonko commander 2 decided to use niji's power ups. Stop it.

Stop name scaling lol, look at these character profiles most of them are relative with slight advantages in speed with certain abilities. Also sanji getting tagged is not an anti feat, I dont see why you keep up bringing it up without explaining why the admirals would scale to an amped Queen.

Its a wincon because as we see, marco would be landing more hits on sanji due to his experience fighting many different types of fighters. We see his experience, versatility and such against king and queen when he made it look like a walk in the park. He did not miss a single beat in his attacks.

This is just headcanon, pre ts sanji has better cqc/battle skill feats than marco, being older/fighting for longer does not inherently mean you are a better fighter.

This is not the point. The point is. Sanji isn't as skilled in aerial combat as you think he is.

Disagree

1. He lost to doffy in a sky battle

1. He didn't know his abilities literally just went into the battle blind
2. Doffy massively stat checked him so its not an anti feat of skill but rather general strength.

2. He lost to judge in a aerial battle after implying its his forte.

Because judge had a flame resistant raid suit that sanji was not aware of? Also to say he lost was a stretch judge simply landed 2 attacks that did zero damage.

Notice how sanji is surprised he didn't expect judge to have such high flame res.

3. He lost to a bunch of fodder big mom kids in aerial battle.

Because he was distracted by his friend being brutally stabbed to death?

4. He lost to king in an aerial battle and marco dog walked king in that area.

He was focused on getting momo to safety.

 

[ZKillerz]

Is this a vote... or?

yeah I vote for sanji

 

[OhMika]

Voting Sanji FRA

 

[Kachon123]

Counted

 

[Eseseso]

Honestly, after thinking it over, I am gonna give it to Sanji.

Looking at Marco vs King, King was able to outlast and overpower Marco without even using Buso Haki (as far as we know).

Sanji, having superior stamina and endurance to Marco, plus superior AP, can do the same. Sanji also isn't as careless as Marco can be.

He also is far faster than Marco and has enough durability to take Marco's hits.

Voting Sanji high-extreme diff via AP, Speed, Durability, Stamina, and his serious nature.

 

[Kachon123]

Grace has begun

 

[Yoh_Asakura8]

Cap sanji slams (no bias )

I prefer the interpretation that both simply didn't do anything to each other rather than couldn't, how does this relate to sanji though?

A statemate with an admiral who is >>> a yk 2 commander???????

Marco is actually shown to use more named attacks and techniques when fighting king and Queen than when he fought kizaru.

Again, marco was just simply faster and did not miss a beat within his attacks. Which was why we see him on top most of the time in the duels.

I think marco would be putting in a similar amount if not more effort into stalling them.

His expression says it all. He was calm and collective throughout the fight than marineford. He did say himself holding back 2 yonko commanders is tough but again, you cannot name another yonko commander out there who can stall king and queen other than marco with sheer skill. He probs has same battle experience as king but at the end marco dog walked King and queen same time for a long duration.

He can do all these things without massively holding back in ap and speed which would be counter productive to the assignment itself.

I'll give you that. But again, his comparison to what others can do against 2 yk commanders is says it all.

If anything marineford was worse because he wasn't focused on fighting or stalling during the war, he was focused on protecting/saving ace which lead to him getting off-guarded multiple times...

Exactly my point. The point is.
1. Marco has been using his flames the entire time to help others with virus.
2. Stalling and protect people
3 the reason why he's so calm and collective is because at the end of the day this war is just a war he's supervising and has high hopes for the new generation.
the marineford war was a lot difficult due to the large amounts of heavy hitters and marco was mainly the one there looking out for everyone. Again he's has to stop admiral level beings from causing damage to his side.

Realistically speaking this is a case by case scenario it depends on the strength of the commander and admiral.

marco >> yk commanders

1. No reason to assume he wasn't trying when he utilized multiple named attacks he hadn't used before.

ill give you this. But at the end of the day, he was no way trying to beat them but stall as he said. The pressure wasn't there for him. Hes a substitute in all this.

2. Simply upscales sanji not a defeater, you haven't explained why sanji cant scale to or above the admiralthis

why would sanji scale to an admiral if he only just defeated a YK 2 then passed out.

You haven't really substantiated this interpretation with anything other than "he was attempting to stall king and queen" which I already explained doesn't mean he's holding back massively. If he was holding back to a massive extent he would have no reason to find the assignment difficult as he could just raise his strength accordingly, but he literally states that fighting both king and queen is difficult so he was struggling.

I'll give. But i also said. He's a substitute in all this. Its not his war but he's there to help and supervise.

I somewhat agree to this, marco was outspeeding king while the best you can get for pre exo skeleton sanji is being on par with flames on king.

This is a headcanon statement.

Still haven't explained why this couldn't just be a sanji upscale. Sanji being a perception lvl faster than marco isn't just "something" its a pretty huge advantage all things considered.

So what you're trying to say is sanji is perception blitzing admirals who marco has stalemated and shown at times =.

Yeah no I dont think so, marco's ability is regen oda goes out of his way to clarify that it doesn't work like a logia So no reason to assume it does. Would be nice if you can show the screenshot of what ur talking about bro .

where were the holes in marcos chest after he got riddles by them when the sea prism stones were on. The most notible injury marco sustained was from garp.

Also I would like to add marco was afraid of perospero's candy arrow so chances are sanji has drastically superior durability.

... you lost me here buddy.

No not inherently. Fighting for longer does not equivalate to having more experience. While experience and time are linked they do not correlate one to one with each other.

Fighting longer you are right. But where the experience comes from is from marco's battle iq being capable of going = with TWO yonko commanders and making them look like poop.

So sanji being a pirate for less time than marco does not mean he has the experience advantage as this would depend on the amount of tough scenarios marco was forced to adapt to which we have no idea of. I dont think he displayed any crazy fighting skills against Queen and King tbh.

This is a lie. Gud arguments tho. Ima reply to part 2.

 

[SlendVeny]

Also I would like to add marco was afraid of perospero's candy arrow so chances are sanji has drastically superior durability.

Counterpoint, Big Mom had to restrain him and ask Perospero for help. Also, that's just another example of piercing damage feats.

 

[Yoh_Asakura8]

Sanji wasn't awakened so I dont think this is fair to use as an anti feat.

I'll give you this. However he was in his transitioning stages.

Why would the admirals be much faster than Queen? Even if they were arbitrarily faster you couldn't give anything to suggest they're perception lvls faster. (obviously referring to pre ts admirals not post ts)
Can you actually give a scale rather than saying admirals >>>> yonkou commanders

There's not even much change between post ts and pre ts admirals. But all we know is that they're and will always be >>> King and queen. And why wouldn't the admirals be faster? Does queen have a databook implying he's the fastest in the verse so queen >> kizaru ??? We know where the admirals all scale so i don't really have to give any direct scalings on it. Aokiji, kizaru and akainu are above those yonko commanders. Heck, even greenbull ran up on the left over army where all YK commanders and tobiroppo are. Even if half strength they should make a difference together but they got reked.

No I think marco just didn't have the haki to surpass his logia intag. Why not? So? Garp wasn't using as much strength as he was against aokiji. Why?

he didn't. But again, garp hit him hard enougb to send him packing and he only suffered a minor bruise. He puched shiryu and had him bleeding everywhere.(shiryu who is said to be bb strongest commander) Kuzan did infact get hit by acoc but again most of the damage was caused by crashing into the ground. The clothesline did not have any impact shockwave.

Stop name scaling lol, look at these character profiles most of them are relative with slight advantages in speed with certain abilities. Also sanji getting tagged is not an anti feat, I dont see why you keep up bringing it up without explaining why the admirals would scale to an amped Queen.

Why would queen scale to any admiral? What has he done that's comparable to any admiral? Speed? No, dura? Maybe, ap? Hell no.

This is just headcanon, pre ts sanji has better cqc/battle skill feats than marco, being older/fighting for longer does not inherently mean you are a better fighter.

That is what you call headcanon because you haven't listed any feats as to why sanji would be a better skilled fighter.

Disagree

1. He didn't know his abilities literally just went into the battle blind

Oh so sanji is an idiot confirmed rushing into battle without thinking? Makes sense.

2. Doffy massively stat checked him so its not an anti feat of skill but rather general strength.

Doffy is just smater.

Because judge had a flame resistant raid suit that sanji was not aware of? Also to say he lost was a stretch judge simply landed 2 attacks that did zero damage.

Notice how sanji is surprised he didn't expect judge to have such high flame res.

That just goes to show sanji is not READDYY !!! Another point added to why sanji isn't tactically smart in battle against opponents smarter than him. He's never outclassed anyone of = battle iq or intelligence.

Because he was distracted by his friend being brutally stabbed to death?

his mission is to get luffy out but again he got clapped by a big mom fodder. He even spoke to him before he attacked. Sanji is looking directly at him.

He was focused on getting momo to safety.

I'll give you that but again watch anime too. He gets folded. Anime adds a littlw spice to the fights.

 

[SlendVeny]

There's not even much change between post ts and pre ts admirals.

(shiryu who is said to be bb strongest commander)

Disagree with these parts

 

[Yoh_Asakura8]

Oh and remove my vote. Ima still argue for marco either way because he's my bird boy. like i said somewhere else....

Theres more detailed proof of marco in that thread than there is for sanji. "Sanji enters opposite swirly mode and blitz, marco can't see him, Sanji one shots" sanji is clearly not fastest in the series unlike marco who has feats consistently scrapping against the fastest. When queen activated niji's power, sanji couldn't keep up. And queen only activated it that one time.

And y'all need to stop bringing up sanji's haki because its not doing much for him. Its been consistently shown he's not good in that department. His exo makes up for that. His haki is more so utilised for diable jambe than anything else.

 

[XDragnoir]

I'll give you that but again watch anime too. He gets folded. Anime adds a littlw spice to the fights.

Which aren't accepted for scaling iirc, no idea why you're bringing it up.

Anyway, Sanji FRA, but mainly due to speed, stamina and skill.

 

[SlendVeny]

Which aren't accepted for scaling iirc, no idea why you're bringing it up.

Eh, the Anime is fine to use for feats that are unclear in the manga iirc.

 

[Yoh_Asakura8]

Which aren't accepted for scaling iirc, no idea why you're bringing it up.

Anyway, Sanji FRA, but mainly due to speed, stamina and skill.

That wasn't to be taken seriously.

 

[Eminiteable]

After reading the thread and reviewing the points presented for each character, I'm voting:

Neutral.

 

[Kachon123]

After reading the thread and reviewing the points presented for each character, I'm voting:

Neutral.

So incon or just not a vote

 

[Yoh_Asakura8]

I forgot neutral was an option. Put me on incon.

 

[XDragnoir]

Eh, the Anime is fine to use for feats that are unclear in the manga iirc.

The anime added a whole new scene in Sanji vs King (the scene where King blocks Sanji's RS kick), as well as several other moments that result in a kinda different scaling, those are not to be used.

 

[SlendVeny]

The anime added a whole new scene in Sanji vs King (the scene where King blocks Sanji's RS kick), as well as several other moments that result in a kinda different scaling, those are not to be used.

Yep.

 

[Kachon123]

Grace has ended. Adding this to Marco and Sanji's profiles

 

[Kachon123]

Added to the profiles. This can be closed.