Sanji vs Marco

[Kachon123]

I don't see Sanji overpowering Kizaru in an aerial clash like Marco did tbh.

Considering Sanji has better AP than Marco based on feats and a direct comparison via Queen, he should be able to replicate that.

via better regen

The regen gets negged to an extent via haki as well as Sanji exploiting its stamina reliance.

flight

Sanji also has flight so I'm not sure how Marco's would lead to him having an advantage.

fighting experience

Again, what would this entail in terms of the fight itself?

better Buso

Marco's buso scales to pre timeskip kizaru and aokiji, definitely has the better arm haki

He doesn't. They both scale to around the same Haki potency. Name dropping certain characters doesn't prove that he has better Haki than Sanji unless you prove that those characters do as well.

better defence with Undying Thistle which could block any attack from Sanji when it can defend against King, Akainus enraged punch, and Kaidou's Bolo Breath and also better endurance

All of those attacks are flame-based, meaning Marco simply repelled it via hax rather than with his defense itself. Undying Thistle most definitely plays a factor in this fight, but to say that it's a wincon when Sanji's much better speed and intelligence would allow him to avoid hitting it doesn't make much sense to me.

idk if his stamina is better ngl after using his IJ he seemed like he run out of stamina.

There's really no way of proving this. Sanji was already extremely gassed by the end of his fight with Queen. We see him gasping for air on several occasions prior to using Ifrit Jambe, which makes sense considering he went through literal torture and much more before this. Saying that Ifrit Jambe sucks up a ton of stamina is unsupported.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

He doesn't. They both scale to around the same Haki potency. Name dropping certain characters doesn't prove that he has better Haki than Sanji unless you prove that those characters do as well.

First of all, it's you who has to prove sanji has admiral level type arm haki...

Current Sanji's Haki > Onigashima Sanji's Haki > Beginning of Wano Sanji's Haki > Dressrosa-WCI Sanji's Haki > FMI-Punk Hazard Sanji's Haki (4 layers)

The f is this scaling... Where's even the proof of any of this?

There's also no proof that that's anywhere near admiral level type arm haki, gg

 

[Yoh_Asakura8]

Sanji doesn't have any good Arm haki feats to compare himself to marco.

And for instance. Raid suit sanji got outclassed in aerial combat against king, judge & doffy. So his aerial combat isn't up to standards as it should be. However Marco has beaten/evenly matched the best such as kizaru and King.

 

[Eseseso]

I don't see Sanji overpowering Kizaru in an aerial clash like Marco did tbh. Anyways im voting Marco Extreme Diff via better regen, flight, fighting experience, better Buso, and better defence with Undying Thistle which could block any attack from Sanji when it can defend against King, Akainus enraged punch, and Kaidou's Bolo Breath and also better endurance. Sanji got many wincons too like Speed Amps, Observation Haki, better AP, idk if his stamina is better ngl after using his IJ he seemed like he run out of stamina.

Marco FRA

 

[SlendVeny]

Marco FRA

 

[Kachon123]

First of all, it's you who has to prove sanji has admiral level type arm haki...

Can you explain what "admiral level type arm haki" is?

There's also no proof that that's anywhere near admiral level type arm haki, gg

What does this mean.

 

[Eminiteable]

You've all just gone Marco FRA without even discussing the match and how it would play out, just listing advantages instead of discussing how their advantages would even interact.

 

[Eseseso]

You've all just gone Marco FRA without even discussing the match and how it would play out, just listing advantages instead of discussing how their advantages would even interact.

Fair enough, I switch to neutral.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Can you explain what "admiral level type arm haki" is?

What does this mean.

you gonna explain the sanji scaling first or just ignore it?

Admiral level arm haki is when you are relative to the admirals in haki (near god tier) and it's the only way to base of off in name since the marines rank it similar to that (like when it stated vice admirals and above have haki)

Like you know what I mean when saying that, stop acting ignorant

what you want me to do is go and do the haki scaling/layering bs, which I'm not trying to waste my time in doing ESPECIALLY WHEN WE ALL KNOW ADMIRALS HAVE INSANE HAKI and Marco scales to that which sanji doesn't, now bye and stop being weak

 

[Kachon123]

you gonna explain the sanji scaling first or just ignore it?

What about it would you like me to explain? It seems kind of blatant and clear cut.

Admiral level arm haki is when you are relative to the admirals in haki (near god tier)

What is this based on? Where would they Haki scale?

and it's the only way to base of off in name since the marines rank it similar to that (like when it stated vice admirals and above have haki)

The most this would give is a layer above Vice Admirals like Draw, which would be 3 Layers.

Like you know what I mean when saying that, stop acting ignorant

No one is acting ignorant. You're just claiming that Admirals have "God Tier Haki" without:

A. Explaining what that means
B. Explaining why Sanji doesn't
C. How many layers that is

 

[SlendVeny]

Another issue I have is that Marco has better openers. Sanji doesn't go all out from the beginning, he isn't going to use his Vinsmoke Amps until he's already been damaged. Meanwhile, Marco starts out with his Zoan powers active.

 

[Kachon123]

Another issue I have is that Marco has better openers. Sanji doesn't go all out from the beginning, he isn't going to use his Vinsmoke Amps until he's already been damaged. Meanwhile, Marco starts out with his Zoan powers active.

He would start with it if he considers his opponent a threat, which Marco is. Why wouldn't he start with it?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

What about it would you like me to explain? It seems kind of blatant and clear cut.

the non existent scaling of haki that's dressrosa sanji > punk hazard sanji and nearly everything else

What is this based on? Where would they Haki scale?

The most this would give is a layer above Vice Admirals like Draw, which would be 3 Layers.

No one is acting ignorant. You're just claiming that Admirals have "God Tier Haki" without:

A. Explaining what that means
B. Explaining why Sanji doesn't
C. How many layers that is

... This answers this post

what you want me to do is go and do the haki scaling/layering bs, which I'm not trying to waste my time in doing ESPECIALLY WHEN WE ALL KNOW ADMIRALS HAVE INSANE HAKI and Marco scales to that which sanji doesn't, now bye and stop being weak

 

[Kachon123]

the non existent scaling of haki that's dressrosa sanji > punk hazard sanji and nearly everything else

Do you understand how Haki grows? When an individual who can use Haki is put under pressure physically and/or mentally, their Haki grows as a result. Between Punk Hazard and Dressrosa, Sanji has been put in situations that fill that criteria.

 

[Kachon123]

... This answers this post

So your answer is that you have no reason other than headcanon?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Do you understand how Haki grows? When an individual who can use Haki is put under pressure physically and/or mentally, their Haki grows as a result.

Literally never ever stated, that's how someone can awaken/achive it

And also your scaling 90% of the time never even make sense/mean anything... They are unquantifiable in every way

Otherwise I can do the same shit and add marineford Marco < payback war Marco < Wano Marco...

So your answer is that you have no reason other than headcanon?

No.

 

[Yoh_Asakura8]

No unnecessary arguments here, pls refrain from it. My vote still stands as sanji has no wincons other than his AP. But AP isn't everything.

I'll list my reasonings as to why Marco takes this mid diff.

- Marco more experienced and better skilled fighter. Has fought fighters much stronger than sanji. ((As well as fighting 2 opponents sanji and zoro struggled with, with ease for a long period of time.))

- better Endurance/ Stamina

- Better skilled Aerial Combatant

- Better usage of armament haki

- Higher LS can restrain sanji. If sanji does what Kachoon said(kick marco's wing off, Marco will just use it as a weapon like he did with King and send sanji packing.

- More hax, able to counter sanji's attacks with a shockwave barrier.

- His observation haki and speed potent enough to keep up with kizaru.

I might be forgetting more points but this is all i have for now. Will then list other stuff afterwards in favour of my beloved Blue Phoenix later.

 

[Nierre]

Can someone who has the Haki layers prove why one is higher than the other?

Just like other verses do with Soul hax layers, or Mind Manip layers:

A (Reason) > B (Reason) > C (Reason) > D (Reason)

I'm not going to blindly just accept people's Haki layers if they're not going to give reasons for why the layers are as high as they put them.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Scaling Methods of Buso​

A devil fruit power from a Haki user failing to work on another Haki user means the other Haki user is relative to (or superior to) the other for being capable of stopping their power.
A Haki user overpowering another Haki user who's relative to their base means their Haki provides them a superior amp.
Statements of superior Armament mean that the other is superior.
Making the opponent's Haki throb means they're superior.
If a DF user's power works on 1 person but not the other, then the latter's Haki is superior.
If they can have an armament Haki clash then they're comparable.
Those whos' Haki is praised should have relative Haki to whoever is praising them.

This is the only accepted method of how to scale arm haki

 

[Nierre]

Yes yes I know, I just want to see the reasons for the actual scaling. Because I don't know every single time Sanji's Haki has gotten stronger, or Marco's. So seeing a statement or an actual feat would solidify it for me.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Only posted it just so someone wouldn't make some weird ass reasoning to scale their haki

 

[Nierre]

Only posted it just so someone wouldn't make some weird ass reasoning to scale their haki

Common Monkey W

 

[SlendVeny]

Do you understand how Haki grows? When an individual who can use Haki is put under pressure physically and/or mentally, their Haki grows as a result. Between Punk Hazard and Dressrosa, Sanji has been put in situations that fill that criteria.

No, their Haki CAN grow as a result. Not always.

 

[Nierre]

Yes, I don't think just saying a character went through a lot of shit physically/mentally is enough proof (alone) to warrant a whole layer. UNLESS it's been stated or implied in the manga itself.

 

[SlendVeny]

Same people who say that stuff will say the admirals haven't grown over the timeskip.

 

[Eminiteable]

Yes yes I know, I just want to see the reasons for the actual scaling. Because I don't know every single time Sanji's Haki has gotten stronger, or Marco's. So seeing a statement or an actual feat would solidify it for me.

We don't know of a single time Marco's haki grew stronger, we only have him scaling above Ace from his novel due to a statement of superiority which was accepted in the thread got buso layers accepted; His layers come from Ace's own feats in the novel.

 

[Nierre]

That's fine by me, I'm not saying that's not valid. Im moreso talking about Sanji's haki layers rather than Marco's.

 

[SlendVeny]

That's fine by me, I'm not saying that's not valid. Im moreso talking about Sanji's haki layers rather than Marco's.

I think Kachon is implying that Sanji's Buso got stronger by two layers due to getting his ass handed to him by Vergo and Doffy.

 

[Nierre]

I'd like to see statements or implications that support that belief

 

[Yoh_Asakura8]

Sanji's haki has not grown since beginning of timeskip as i said. All his haki keys should be the same as no evidence supporting his haki has grown since then. He failed to contend with vergo, thus breaking a leg , he failed to compete in a physical altercation with doffy, he failed to even fully defend himself from judge as he seems to look hurt from clashing his leg with judge's spear. Manga doesn't say anything about him using Armament which its obvious that he did, but anime confirmed it. How much better has his Armament haki gotten since then? 4 layers is headcanon as he has no solid feats implying that he's at 4 layers. Most of his clashes in wano he was using a raid suit. This doesn't imply exactly that haki was being used as the raid suit is modified to tank large amounts of damage and give its user a large boost in speed and power.

Sanji has no feats clashing with nobody from wano without his genetic modification kicking in, so we cannot say much about his Armament haki other than it prolly went 1 layer up within the weeks he trained improving his Armament.

If i did not make any sense here then big rips.

Other than that, i doubt sanji is gonna be one who heavily focuses on his Armament when he has his modified genetics to back up that department. His Haki is utilised in a way for aid in combat against logias and support his diable jambe and irift for amps it seems. The route sanji goes is unique in his own way. This doesn't mean he cannot contend with high tiers, he can in his own way. Kinda like gohan going his own route with his ssj but focusing more on his ultimate gohan side. The saiyan within him fuels that new power. We seen that with irift and hells memories.(kinda what i hate about sanji fans because its like they don't know Sanji himself.) Sanji's speed seemingly negs observation. But ye.. All we have to go off from this and that Is.. is this enough to take down my Blue phoenix bb marco???

 

[Darkvie123]

You've all just gone Marco FRA without even discussing the match and how it would play out, just listing advantages instead of discussing how their advantages would even interact.

1) Marco's Mythical Zoan DF amps his stats further in Zoan Form and Hybrid Form which grants him better regen and durability than Sanji. 2) Even tho Sanji has flight too, Marco has a significant advantage in terms of mobility allowing him to engage in aerial combat and escape from difficult situations, which Sanji cannot do (Doffy vs Sanji) 3) Marco's Haki has been shown matching Kizaru's and even overpowered him in their clash in Marineford. Matching Kizaru's Buso is better than any Buso Haki feat Sanji has shown...heck even in a Databook Marco's Haki has been stated to be matching the Admirals and that he's proficient with it. 4) Marco's far more experienced than Sanji. He's been a key player in major battles and has extensive experience as a commander. His Battle Iq and Strategic thinking gives him an advantage over Sanji which could be considered a Wincon over Sanji in terms of overall combat effectiveness. 5) Marco's regen abilities are unparalelled which allow him to heal rapidly from injuries. Which makes him exceptionally difficult to defeat and provides a clear advantage in an extended battle which he could even outlast Sanji. 6) He's more versatile than Sanji with his Hybrid Form which combines his Zoan Abilities with his Haki providing him with a mix of offense and defense. Sanji is depended more on offense. And for the piece of cake Marco's Strong Defensive Abilities with his Blue Flames which can be used for powerful defensive measures, making it difficult for Sanji to land succesfull damage to him. Marco wins for my reasons

 

[Eminiteable]

1) Marco's Mythical Zoan DF amps his stats further in Zoan Form and Hybrid Form which grants him better regen and durability than Sanji.

Kachon already brought up in a previous post that Sanji's scaling already covers Marco's zoan forms through Queen who shot holes in him.

3) Marco's Haki has been shown matching Kizaru's and even overpowered him in their clash in Marineford. Matching Kizaru's Buso is better than any Buso Haki feat Sanji has shown...heck even in a Databook Marco's Haki has been stated to be matching the Admirals and that he's proficient with it.

We've already covered in previous posts with actual feats and scaling that Marco's Buso is better than Sanji's at least in terms of layers.

However, this nonsense about Marco and Kizaru having a haki clash never happened. They also didn't clash, Kizaru blocked Marco's kick and was knocked to the ground unharmed.

4) Marco's far more experienced than Sanji. He's been a key player in major battles and has extensive experience as a commander. His Battle Iq and Strategic thinking gives him an advantage over Sanji which could be considered a Wincon over Sanji in terms of overall combat effectiveness

Marco having more experience is obviously valid, but, that can't be equated to him having better battle Iq and strategic thinking than Sanji. Actual feats proving Marco to be better are needed, so far Sanji has his feats of his battle Iq listed in his intelligence section.

5) Marco's regen abilities are unparalelled which allow him to heal rapidly from injuries. Which makes him exceptionally difficult to defeat and provides a clear advantage in an extended battle which he could even outlast Sanji.

I don't disagree with the regeneration part but rather the "outlast" part. Marco's regeneration is great but it comes at the cost of his own stamina, as we saw in Wano where he lost to King due to that stamina tax.

6) He's more versatile than Sanji with his Hybrid Form which combines his Zoan Abilities with his Haki providing him with a mix of offense and defense. Sanji is depended more on offense. And for the piece of cake Marco's Strong Defensive Abilities with his Blue Flames which can be used for powerful defensive measures, making it difficult for Sanji to land succesfull damage to him. Marco wins for my reasons

Marco is more versatile but in this post you failed to prove it, as far as offense and defense go Sanji is also versatile in it due to his new exo-skeleton.

Overall I'm not sure why you responded to me with this post since my issue was people voting and "just listing advantages instead of discussing how their advantages would even interact" which in this post you've just further done, providing Marco's advantages rather than cover how Marco gets around Sanji's own advantages, such as his speed.

 

[Kachon123]

I echo mostly the same thoughts as Emin said, but I'll post an in depth analysis of this match whenever I have time, probably tomorrow or later today.

 

[SlendVeny]

The stamina issue only really presented itself in Wano, where he fought two commanders and Big Mom. In Marineford, he wasn't that bad.

 

[Kachon123]

The stamina issue only really presented itself in Wano, where he fought two commanders and Big Mom.

I'll never understand why people keep gassing up Marco saying he fought both King and Queen, when he LITERALLY only fought Queen for less than half of chapter 1006 (3 pages). For the rest of the time, he was just fighting King, where he ran out of stamina and was floored.

As for Big Mom... he just had a singular clash with her and then got grabbed. I'm not sure how that is even considered a fight, or why that would waste any or much of his stamina at all, and if it did, then that's more of a testament to how small his tank is.

In Marineford, he wasn't that bad.

In Marineford he never really needed to heal much. The only real damage he needed to heal from what Kizaru's lasers. He wasn't shown to take any attacks after that

 

[SlendVeny]

I'll never understand why people keep gassing up Marco saying he fought both King and Queen,

He literally did, he fought them both at once.

 

[Kachon123]

He literally did, he fought them both at once.

Send the panels and don't cut off my sentence taking it out of context.

 

[SlendVeny]

Send the panels and don't cut off my sentence taking it out of context.

The bit where he choked them both out with his LS wasn't even in 1006.

 

[Kachon123]

The bit where he choked them both out with his LS wasn't even in 1006.

You mean the bit where he grabbed them and then the next time we see anything of Marco he's only fighting King?

 

[Yoh_Asakura8]

He was fighting two commanders for the duration of the entire supernova Roofpiece. 1 of them being a lunarian(aka king)

People are forgetting that marco wasn't really stressing or taking his fights as serious as he should against king or queen. His whole point of being there was just to help out as a substitute. He never engaged in any major battles with any intention of beating his opponents.
He's more like
•pointing out to zoro he should be up on rooftop with luffy and others thus adiding up there.
• Nobody is here to stall king and queen so he did it.
• negged kings attack so zoro can fully heal

He was there to make sure everyone was safe and be where they're suppose to be.
This isn't like marineford wher he engaged every battlefield and stalemating every admiral. He came like a mentor, entrusting and guiding the new gen.

For my last point of the argument for marcos stamina, yes marco was overwhelmed in the end. He was up against a lunarian who also negs damage and is very powerful to contend with attacks that harmed kaido. And also fought queen evenly. Idk where you got " he only fought king from" most of the fight was offscreened and both did engage marco. Marco is a much better fighter than sanji land and air, marco has the advantage.