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Sanji vs Marco

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Yoh_Asakura8 said:
He was fighting two commanders for the duration of the entire supernova Roofpiece. 1 of them being a lunarian(aka king)
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This is not true. We see that he was fighting King for that entire time.
Kachon123 said:
only fighting King?
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This happened on chapter 1005 (during Roofpiece). Queen is nowhere to be found.

The entirety of chapter 1007 was Queen vs Chopper and the alliance, which was also during Roofpiece. It was King vs Marco. King and Queen vs Marco only happened for 4 pages and I don't know where this narrative that he fought the both of them for several chapters came from. You guys are yet to send a single scan outside of the 3/4 from half of chapter 1006 that shown Marco FIGHTING King and Queen together.
 
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The fights were offscreened and doesn't take away from anything. Just behind king is King's aerial force accompanying King in his fight. Kings aerial force were gone, nowhere to be seen afterwards. Thats just oda giving us snippets. Marco has been fighting King and queen from ch 1000 till 1007. There was a time queen focused his attention on the samurai instead and marco reminding Queen that Queen is his opponent. Then chopper engaged queen for a breif time because once again queen ran away to engage chopper. At this point, the supernova rooftop saga has near reached its climax.

So really it doesn't really change much. The argument still stands. Marco fought both for a long duration all while saving the army from attacks from the Queen and the virus.
 
Sanji and Marco's fight seems close, but it really isn't.

Marco has good AP feats in overpowering a casual Kizaru in the air (although it did no damage), however this simply upscales Sanji. When comparing Marco and Sanji's AP, it's important to note that Queen can be used, as they both have feats against him. We see Marco attack Queen twice (here and here). When looking at the actual amount of damage Marco dealt to Queen and comparing it to what Sanji has shown against Queen, it's clear who has superior AP. Even before awakening his Exoskeleton, a single kick from Diable Jambe Sanji was able to kick Queen with so much power that his head was literally spinning like a helicopter to where it allowed Queen to levitate. What's impressive about this is that Queen was unable to control himself and stop his head from spinning. This feat alone already showed that Sanji's AP is at the very least relative to Marco's, but that's not even the end of it. With a Mutton Mallet, Sanji was able to deal just as much damage, if not more on a Hybrid Queen than Marco could do on either Queen's Human or Full Zoan forms. After awakening his Exoskeleton, we know that Sanji got a huge AP boost, large enough where it was able to turn normal children into superhumans that can bend steel bars. At Sanji's peak, using his Exoskeleton, Jambes, and Enhanced Speed, his AP would be several times superior to Marco's.

Sanji's speed without activating his Exoskeleton and Marco have identical speed feats to each other, being able to situationally outpace Queen, although Sanji did it to a superior version of Queen. Sanji got faster after awakening his Exoskeleton, and can boost his speed vastly with Ifrit Jambe, to FTE levels above that with his Enhanced Speed, or combine the two for even greater speed and AP, meaning Sanji takes this category handily.

Sanji's durability is better as well. Even without his fully developed Exoskeleon, he was able to remain unscathed by Queen's attacks, while Marco's physical body had holes blown through them by the AP of Queen's attacks.

Sanji is also for more tactical and intelligent than Marco. Just read Sanji's intelligence section on his profile. No need to explain further.

Marco is more versatile, but what does that entail in this fight? His ranged attacks won't really land due to Sanji's greater speed and the starting distance of 10 meters, and his regeneration doesn't really mean much due to Sanji's Haki, which I'll elaborate on later.

Something people don't realize about Haki negating specific abilities is that simply having greater Haki doesn't mean that you automatically negate them. Unless your name is Kaidou or Big Mom who seem to passively coat themselves in Haki, or use Fullbody Haki as a technique in battle like Vergo or Pica, you're not going to passively negate/resist abilities. Sanji, although having weaker Haki, would still be able to negate Marco's regeneration until Marco negates Sanji's regeneration negation with his own Haki. The reason this is an important factor is because of Sanji's vast speed advantage. Because at his peak, Sanji would be able to land several kicks before he could even react, Marco would have a hard time trying to first activate his Haki on the area kicked to stop the regeneration negation, and then use his fruit to regenerate. Even if he does all of that, more kicks from Sanji would be landing. Marco would be spending most of his time and energy recovering from Sanji's Haki coated kicks to even try to fight back, and if he did, Sanji's seemingly passive Kenbun would allow him to dodge and follow up with even more kicks.

So yeah, Marco does have better Buso, but it isn't the advantage/wincon you would think it would be in this specific matchup.

"Marco has the flight advantage" is a take I've also heard, which I'm confused on. Do we really consider flying via flapping 2 wings easier to fight in the air with to literally just running and jumping on the air? Sanji can quite literally change his directions on any axis at will without any issues and while continuing to fight, while Marco has to flap his wings. Marco may have regular flight while Sanji has psuedo-flight, but just judging who has the advantage there via the names doesn't make much sense to me.

Here's how I see the fight going:

In the beginning of the fight, Marco and Sanji are pretty competitive, with Marco having the upper hand due to his regen, their relative speed allowing Marco to keep up, and his AP slowly chipping away as Sanji's defenses. Once Sanji realizes that if the fight kept going like that he may lose, he'd activate his Exoskeleton by flipping his eyebrows. Now in his Exo Mode, Sanji is able to turn the tables slightly, with him now having superior AP, superior Speed, superior Durability, and regeneration, allowing him to more consistently avoid and counter attacks, as well as not take much damage if he ever gets tagged or just flat out heal from the attack. Once the fight goes on like this for a while, Sanji would decide to try to wrap up the fight as quickly as he can. Sanji at this point would activate his enhanced speed, which would be enough to go FTE to Marco, and hit him with a Haki coated Hell's Memories kick, following up behind him with another kick to set up a chain of attacks to overwhelm Marco. While getting hit with these attacks, Marco would likely be able to grab onto Sanji, and squeeze him, messing up his insides with its sheer pressure. After that, Sanji would simply regenerate, and recover from Marco's squeeze. Realizing that he now must end the fight, Sanji would go into his enhanced speed mode again to disappear from Marco's sight and activate Ifrit Jambe, where in a sequence of Haki coated burning blitzing kicks, Sanji would overwhelm Marco's durability, regeneration, reactions, and heat resistance. Finishing off the fight, Sanji would end with a large Boeuf Burst explosion, which would take Marco out.

Sanji wins.

Although Marco does have some advantages such as superior Haki, regeneration, and flame nullification, he likely wouldn't be able to use them to the best of his ability due to Sanji's speed, haki, and heat. In the end, Sanji's superior physical stats and intelligence is what would give him the win.
 
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Godernet said:
Isn't their Haki too relative for Sanji's to neg Marco's DF ability negging his flames?
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Kachon123 said:
Something people don't realize about Haki negating specific abilities is that simply having greater Haki doesn't mean that you automatically negate them. Unless your name is Kaidou or Big Mom who seem to passively coat themselves in Haki, or use Fullbody Haki as a technique in battle like Vergo or Pica, you're not going to passively negate/resist abilities. Sanji, although having weaker Haki, would still be able to negate Marco's regeneration until Marco negates Sanji's regeneration negation with his own Haki. The reason this is an important factor is because of Sanji's vast speed advantage. Because at his peak, Sanji would be able to land several kicks before he could even react, Marco would have a hard time trying to first activate his Haki on the area kicked to stop the regeneration negation, and then use his fruit to regenerate. Even if he does all of that, more kicks from Sanji would be landing. Marco would be spending most of his time and energy recovering from Sanji's Haki coated kicks to even try to fight back, and if he did, Sanji's seemingly passive Kenbun would allow him to dodge and follow up with even more kicks.
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Read this part.
 
Stamina: Superhuman (Possesses exceptional stamina and endurance, as he survived getting shot by Kizaru's lasers even after getting cuffed with seastone, negating his special regeneration powers. Weaker characters were also able to continuously battle for five days)
Click to expand...

¹I just wanted to point out that the level of stamina that is currently accepted for Marco does not even compare to the level of Sanji as a child.

²Marco's regeneration depends on his stamina.

³Sanji not only has the advantage in speed but is also extremely perceptive and intelligent, it will be very easy for him to realize that Marco's regeneration will weaken quickly and he's not ashamed to abuse his speed to try to get hit as little as possible and only attack when he's sure he won't receive a counterattack.

Summary: Marco's stamina is currently horrible and consequently Sanji won't need to do much for Marco to be completely worn out.
Sanji FRA 🚂
 
Kachon123 said:
Sanji and Marco's fight seems close, but it really isn't.
Click to expand...

It does to me. In marco's favour.

Kachon123 said:
Marco has good AP feats in overpowering a casual Kizaru in the air (although it did no damage)
Click to expand...

Both had an even clash and was playing around with each other at 1st. 2nd engagement. Both couldn't do anything to each other till marco got distracted and tagged by sea stone.

Kachon123 said:
however this simply upscales Sanji.
Click to expand...

no it does not in the slightest because marco's intension was not to defeat king or queen it was to stall. He's at the war as a substitute as i said before.
1. He was getting others into their positions.
2. He was looking out for the samurai and straw hats.
3. He was already using his flames to help those inflicted with virus.
4. He was fighting king and queen same time, stalling both.
5. You can tell the difference from his demeanor at marineford and wano.

Kachon123 said:
When comparing Marco and Sanji's AP, it's important to note that Queen can be used, as they both have feats against him.
Click to expand...
My point made above why this isn't it.
Admirals >>> yonko commander.


Kachon123 said:
We see Marco attack Queen twice (here and here). When looking at the actual amount of damage Marco dealt to Queen and comparing it to what Sanji has shown against Queen, it's clear who has superior AP. Even before awakening his Exoskeleton, a single kick from Diable Jambe Sanji was able to kick Queen with so much power that his head was literally spinning like a helicopter to where it allowed Queen to levitate.
Click to expand...
Doesn't mean anything because marco sent queen flying one way and king flying the other. He spun him around like a helicopter and queen doesn't seem to be even taking any comparable dmg to what marco did in the links you sent.

Kachon123 said:
What's impressive about this is that Queen was unable to control himself and stop his head from spinning. This feat alone already showed that Sanji's AP is at the very least relative to Marco's, but that's not even the end of it.
Click to expand...
Not impressive in the slightest Queen.


Kachon123 said:
With a Mutton Mallet, Sanji was able to deal just as much damage, if not more on a Hybrid Queen than Marco could do on either Queen's Human or Full Zoan forms.
Click to expand...

1. Marco wasn't trying.
2. Marco has been comparable to admirals.


Kachon123 said:
After awakening his Exoskeleton, we know that Sanji got a huge AP boost, large enough where it was able to turn normal children into superhumans that can bend steel bars. At Sanji's peak, using his Exoskeleton, Jambes, and Enhanced Speed, his AP would be several times superior to Marco's.
Click to expand...

Ima stop responding to these because marco definitely was hardly trying and was just there to aid them as a substitute. He's already been using his flames to help warm hundreds yet thousands of people infected by the virus.

Kachon123 said:
Sanji's speed without activating his Exoskeleton and Marco have identical speed feats to each other, being able to situationally outpace Queen, although Sanji did it to a superior version of Queen.
Click to expand...

They're not identical because marco has speed feats to keep up with both king and queen the same time. As well as intercepting and keeping up with admirals.


Kachon123 said:
Sanji got faster after awakening his Exoskeleton, and can boost his speed vastly with Ifrit Jambe, to FTE levels above that with his Enhanced Speed, or combine the two for even greater speed and AP, meaning Sanji takes this category handily.
Click to expand...

this is something but again marco kept up with kizaru as they engaged in battle twice.


Kachon123 said:
Sanji's durability is better as well. Even without his fully developed Exoskeleon, he was able to remain unscathed by Queen's attacks, while Marco's physical body had holes blown through them by the AP of Queen's attacks.
Click to expand...

I would not say his durability comes even close to marco. Those bullets holes are always going to be an outliner due to fact marco's phoenix body seems to always work like a logia when it comes to piercing attacks. Take kizaru's laser for instance. He was riddled holes when in phoenix form. When his df powers got weakened by sea stone, he was got hit, yet no holes. 🤷‍♂️

Kachon123 said:
Sanji is also for more tactical and intelligent than Marco. Just read Sanji's intelligence section on his profile. No need to explain further.
Click to expand...

this doesn't amount to anything. Marco is tactically better as he has more battle experience in leading warfare. He's here basically supervising everything making sure everything is ok and everyone is where they're suppose to be. Fought both king and queen who are just as tactical and intelligent. Not forgetting marco is also a doctor.

Before you say anything. King has deployed his air support unit to stop strawhats and others from getting to rooftop.

We see him several instances deploying troops to areas to take care of the problem sanji caused after sanji revealed the spy network to everyone in black Maria lair.

Fooling tobiroppo into doing serious tasks.

Going for the head of zoro/ ordering his men to kill the second strongest strawhat after getting word that he's incapacitated.

Sanji got floored the second marco was down. Chapter 1022 page 10. He fought both king and queen and stood no chance without marco.


Pt 2 incoming.
 
Kachon123 said:
Haki has Resistance Negation.
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Not sure that qualifies as a resistance, and it wasn't something that was overcome even by those with proven better Buso such as Akainu, Kaidou, King and Big Mom.

And while I agree with your point about the regeneration Buso thing not being passive unless proven otherwise that doesn't change the fact Marco can still just use it defensively.
 
Eminiteable said:
Not sure that qualifies as a resistance
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Eminiteable said:
And while I agree with your point about the regeneration Buso thing not being passive unless proven otherwise that doesn't change the fact Marco can still just use it defensively.
Click to expand...
i think both of those can be answered by Sanji having Intermediate buso vs Marco's initial, so unfortunately he can't use it defensively and Sanji's flames will end up working via negation of the resistance of Extreme Heat
 
noninho said:
i think both of those can be answered by Sanji having Intermediate buso vs Marco's initial, so unfortunately he can't use it defensively and Sanji's flames will end up working via negation of the resistance of Extreme Heat
Click to expand...
Initial is literally covering yourself in invisible armor.
 
SlendVeny said:
Yeah, and? Marco is still stronger with his Haki.
Click to expand...
no mate...
lemme get it quicker for 'ya:
first and foremost: Haki's page ->More potent Buso allows people to affect those who can resist abilities from weaker Buso users[12]

on Sanji's second to last key, the last one who mentions Haki-> Enhanced (<- this means that there are more haki mentions earlier, btw) Haki (Intermediate Busoshoku)
on Marco's page, no key separation for powers-> Haki (Intermediate Kenbunshoku, Initial Busoshoku)

so no, Marco's haki isn't superior, to this day, from what we know.
 
noninho said:
no mate...
lemme get it quicker for 'ya:
first and foremost: Haki's page ->More potent Buso allows people to affect those who can resist abilities from weaker Buso users[12]

on Sanji's second to last key, the last one who mentions Haki-> Enhanced (<- this means that there are more haki mentions earlier, btw) Haki (Intermediate Busoshoku)
on Marco's page, no key separation for powers-> Haki (Intermediate Kenbunshoku, Initial Busoshoku)

so no, Marco's haki isn't superior, to this day, from what we know.
Click to expand...
Higher skill level doesn't mean higher power. Having future sight doesn't mean you can see farther, having projection doesn't make you overpower a guy with stronger Hardening, etc.
 
SlendVeny said:
Higher skill level doesn't mean higher power.
Click to expand...
yes, and this isn't said at all on my point...?

SlendVeny said:
having projection doesn't make you overpower a guy with stronger Hardening, etc.
Click to expand...
what are you trying to tell that i've said?
my point is that Marco's haki isn't better, (intermediate>initial), meaning Sanji's fire will work (via resistance negation) and will ignore Marco's buso defensive usage
 
Kachon123 said:
That isn't really a skill level difference in Haki. Regular Buso to Koka is directly correlated to the potency and strength of your Haki in a way that Koka to Buso Emission isn't.
Click to expand...
Power is different though. Marco has Haki on par with the Admirals, who are Advanced.
 
SlendVeny said:
Power is different though. Marco has Haki on par with the Admirals, who are Advanced.
Click to expand...
if you disagree with current level of marco's haki, you're free to make a CRT for it
so far, it's what's being accepted on the verse's scaling chain
 
noninho said:
if you disagree with current level of marco's haki, you're free to make a CRT for it
so far, it's what's being accepted on the verse's scaling chain
Click to expand...
That wasn't what I was saying though. I'm just saying power isn't the same as mastery.
 
Kachon123 said:
Buso Emission is advanced because it's a very specific application of Buso. Marco has relative Haki strength/potency to the Admirals, which is their regular Buso. Marco doesn't have access to any Advanced Haki.
Click to expand...
That isn't what I was saying. I was saying that his Haki is similarly powerful.
 
The difference is that what separates Buso and Buso: Koka is not a higher skill level, but rather an inherent difference in power and application. Buso: Koka's whole schtick is that it is the more strengthened and fortified 'protection' part of overall Buso, meaning the negating and resisting properties are much more powerful than just regular Buso.
 
SlendVeny said:
Do you mean the admirals are only using Initial Buso on him specifically?
Click to expand...
Yes, as we've never even seen use anything other than that on him.

Also, could someone send the scan saying that Marco has relative Haki to the Admiral and also the source that it comes from? I'm asking because the only statement from any Databook that I remember mentioning Marco and the Admirals' relativity is from Databook Deep Blue where it says that he fought evenly with them. Where does that mention his Haki? Because last time I remembered, the only time we get a comparison between Marco's Haki and another Admiral's, Marco's seemed inferior (There's no proof that Kizaru tried to use Haki to avoid getting hit when Marco was incapable of even dealing damage to him. Even moreso for Kuzan, as Marco hit him completely blind-sighted)

Although I'm not denying that Marco has better Haki than Sanji as of right now due to scaling above Ace, saying he scales to the Admirals' Haki without a source doesn't hold much weight.
 
Kachon123 said:
Sanji and Marco's fight seems close, but it really isn't.

Marco has good AP feats in overpowering a casual Kizaru in the air (although it did no damage), however this simply upscales Sanji. When comparing Marco and Sanji's AP, it's important to note that Queen can be used, as they both have feats against him. We see Marco attack Queen twice (here and here). When looking at the actual amount of damage Marco dealt to Queen and comparing it to what Sanji has shown against Queen, it's clear who has superior AP. Even before awakening his Exoskeleton, a single kick from Diable Jambe Sanji was able to kick Queen with so much power that his head was literally spinning like a helicopter to where it allowed Queen to levitate. What's impressive about this is that Queen was unable to control himself and stop his head from spinning. This feat alone already showed that Sanji's AP is at the very least relative to Marco's, but that's not even the end of it. With a Mutton Mallet, Sanji was able to deal just as much damage, if not more on a Hybrid Queen than Marco could do on either Queen's Human or Full Zoan forms. After awakening his Exoskeleton, we know that Sanji got a huge AP boost, large enough where it was able to turn normal children into superhumans that can bend steel bars. At Sanji's peak, using his Exoskeleton, Jambes, and Enhanced Speed, his AP would be several times superior to Marco's.

Sanji's speed without activating his Exoskeleton and Marco have identical speed feats to each other, being able to situationally outpace Queen, although Sanji did it to a superior version of Queen. Sanji got faster after awakening his Exoskeleton, and can boost his speed vastly with Ifrit Jambe, to FTE levels above that with his Enhanced Speed, or combine the two for even greater speed and AP, meaning Sanji takes this category handily.

Sanji's durability is better as well. Even without his fully developed Exoskeleon, he was able to remain unscathed by Queen's attacks, while Marco's physical body had holes blown through them by the AP of Queen's attacks.

Sanji is also for more tactical and intelligent than Marco. Just read Sanji's intelligence section on his profile. No need to explain further.

Marco is more versatile, but what does that entail in this fight? His ranged attacks won't really land due to Sanji's greater speed and the starting distance of 10 meters, and his regeneration doesn't really mean much due to Sanji's Haki, which I'll elaborate on later.

Something people don't realize about Haki negating specific abilities is that simply having greater Haki doesn't mean that you automatically negate them. Unless your name is Kaidou or Big Mom who seem to passively coat themselves in Haki, or use Fullbody Haki as a technique in battle like Vergo or Pica, you're not going to passively negate/resist abilities. Sanji, although having weaker Haki, would still be able to negate Marco's regeneration until Marco negates Sanji's regeneration negation with his own Haki. The reason this is an important factor is because of Sanji's vast speed advantage. Because at his peak, Sanji would be able to land several kicks before he could even react, Marco would have a hard time trying to first activate his Haki on the area kicked to stop the regeneration negation, and then use his fruit to regenerate. Even if he does all of that, more kicks from Sanji would be landing. Marco would be spending most of his time and energy recovering from Sanji's Haki coated kicks to even try to fight back, and if he did, Sanji's seemingly passive Kenbun would allow him to dodge and follow up with even more kicks.

So yeah, Marco does have better Buso, but it isn't the advantage/wincon you would think it would be in this specific matchup.

"Marco has the flight advantage" is a take I've also heard, which I'm confused on. Do we really consider flying via flapping 2 wings easier to fight in the air with to literally just running and jumping on the air? Sanji can quite literally change his directions on any axis at will without any issues and while continuing to fight, while Marco has to flap his wings. Marco may have regular flight while Sanji has psuedo-flight, but just judging who has the advantage there via the names doesn't make much sense to me.

Here's how I see the fight going:

In the beginning of the fight, Marco and Sanji are pretty competitive, with Marco having the upper hand due to his regen, their relative speed allowing Marco to keep up, and his AP slowly chipping away as Sanji's defenses. Once Sanji realizes that if the fight kept going like that he may lose, he'd activate his Exoskeleton by flipping his eyebrows. Now in his Exo Mode, Sanji is able to turn the tables slightly, with him now having superior AP, superior Speed, superior Durability, and regeneration, allowing him to more consistently avoid and counter attacks, as well as not take much damage if he ever gets tagged or just flat out heal from the attack. Once the fight goes on like this for a while, Sanji would decide to try to wrap up the fight as quickly as he can. Sanji at this point would activate his enhanced speed, which would be enough to go FTE to Marco, and hit him with a Haki coated Hell's Memories kick, following up behind him with another kick to set up a chain of attacks to overwhelm Marco. While getting hit with these attacks, Marco would likely be able to grab onto Sanji, and squeeze him, messing up his insides with its sheer pressure. After that, Sanji would simply regenerate, and recover from Marco's squeeze. Realizing that he now must end the fight, Sanji would go into his enhanced speed mode again to disappear from Marco's sight and activate Ifrit Jambe, where in a sequence of Haki coated burning blitzing kicks, Sanji would overwhelm Marco's durability, regeneration, reactions, and heat resistance. Finishing off the fight, Sanji would end with a large Boeuf Burst explosion, which would take Marco out.

Sanji wins.

Although Marco does have some advantages such as superior Haki, regeneration, and flame nullification, he likely wouldn't be able to use them to the best of his ability due to Sanji's speed, haki, and heat. In the end, Sanji's superior physical stats and intelligence is what would give him the win.
Click to expand...
I think I agree with this, and will vote for SEXO Mode Sanji on the basis of having vastly superior stats and his haki being not too inferior. Aka SEXO Mode Sanji kicks Marcus in the nuts.
 
noninho said:
i think both of those can be answered by Sanji having Intermediate buso vs Marco's initial, so unfortunately he can't use it defensively and Sanji's flames will end up working via negation of the resistance of Extreme Heat
Click to expand...
noninho said:
no mate...
lemme get it quicker for 'ya:
first and foremost: Haki's page ->More potent Buso allows people to affect those who can resist abilities from weaker Buso users[12]

on Sanji's second to last key, the last one who mentions Haki-> Enhanced (<- this means that there are more haki mentions earlier, btw) Haki (Intermediate Busoshoku)
on Marco's page, no key separation for powers-> Haki (Intermediate Kenbunshoku, Initial Busoshoku)

so no, Marco's haki isn't superior, to this day, from what we know.
Click to expand...
As was already said the initial stage already covers using it defensively.

Using hardening is more potent than the invisible armor but this is in relation to the individual user themselves, in general not all intermediate users have more potent haki than initial users.
 
Marco's arm Haki shouldn't at all be Initial... the way arm haki is viewed more as skill instead of potency just doesn't make sense...

It should instead be potency and the subpower of the skills of that potency... Basically

  • Intermediate Stage (potency)​

    • Busoshoku: Koka (skill)
Because you need to develop/train your arm haki to be able to use those skills if I remember correctly
 
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