Fang vs Neck: Jabra vs Kaku

[Kachon123]

Kaku's versatility mainly refers to his ability to switch between form (Zoan/Rokushiki) potentially making his attacks less predictable to Jabra.

I still honestly don't know about this or how it would give Kaku openings to give him an advantage.

Kaku usually uses his Rokushiki, Yontoryuu, and Zoan Forms together, and when he's not, he rarely switches between then mid-combat.

When we see him switch, it's usually at the beginning of a new exchange:

1. Attacks using Rokushiki and gets hit up by Zoro
2. At the beginning of his next barrage of attacks, switches to his swords but then gets hit by Zoro while trying to dodge one of his attacks
3. At the beginning of his next barrage of attacks, switches back to Rokushiki and hits Zoro away
4. After hitting Zoro away he goes back to his sword while stating he'd do so by the way and then gets overwhelmed
5. After getting overwhelmed, he goes right back to Rokushiki to charge Amane Dachi

There is no flow between switching abilities. There is no integration of his versatility in his fighting style that would allow him to be unpredictable or catch Jabra off-guard.

Kaku is definitely versatile, but the way he uses his versatility won't give him the opportunities you're claiming it would. Jabra is honestly comparably versatile.

 

[Nierre]

Now, two major things about Kaku's Hybrid form is his versatility and his unpredictability.

Throughout his fight against Zoro, time and time again, he struggled against Kaku, because his attacks were for the most part very hard to telegraph, and his strange and bizarre moveset made it hard for him to fight back, which Zoro had noted. In fact, Zoro was pretty much on the defensive the whole fight, and managed to catch Kaku a few times (Gorilla, reading his Kaime, and Asura).

Jabra's biggest disadvantage in this fight is range and versatility. He will struggle MASSIVELY against Kaku's range, MUCH like Zoro did, but you could argue he'd do much better, because he has Tekkai and Soru to avoid big damage, unlike Zoro. In terms of offensively, he doesn't actually have much. Jabra's biggest offensive abilities is stacked with Soru and Tekkai, which is perfectly valid. He does spam them after all.

Sanji and Zoro (at least according to the wiki) are comparable in AP, so the fact that Sanji's kicks were able to do damage past his Tekkai, means that Kaku wouldn't struggle AS MUCH, as one would think. While I do subscribe to EL Base Sanji >~ EL Base Zoro, I do think they're comparable to the point that Kaku would be able to do damage through his Tekkai, just as Base Sanji was able to does that mean Jabra's Tekkai ain't shit? kinda.

I believe that Jabra with Tekkai's biggest advantage is "Offensive" Tekkai, not defensive as I argued above. Does that mean his Tekkai's durability is bad? No, not at all. Kaku will definitely do less damage against him, but I personally don't think it'll be as effective, as they're all relative in scaling. Also I personally think EL Sanji ~ Hybrid Tekkai Jabra, since most of the damage Jabra managed to get on Sanji was by catching him off guard smh. His Soru should allow him to get around Kaku and do good damage to him, but I believe that in close range, like he was against Zoro, Kaku would be at a huge advantage. His MASSIVE range advantage is not something Jabra in my honest opinion, in close range, will be able to handle. He doesn't have swords like Zoro to "somewhat" make up for the range disadvantage, he's just using his hands, which is a sizable disadvantage in any close ranged fight, especially if they're comparable in speed. While Jabra does have Soru, yes, he will struggle to use Soru when getting barraged by Kaku, seeing how he couldn't Soru out of Sanji's combo attacks, which are less attacks at the same time compared to Kaku (2 legs, vs 4ss). Not to say it isn't impossible, but it's very unlikely based on his showings.

Once Jabra is able to make the gap however, he would be at an advantage due to Soru, Kaku will struggle to keep up and would have to try to read him, or try to get in close range, which could go either way.

For these reasons, I vote Inconclusive. They both have good and solid advantages and disadvantages that could IMO go either way for both of them.

 

[Nierre]

I just wanna point out that if zoro is truly comparable to Sanji during enies lobby why is it that they performed similarly even though sanji took a ridiculous beating beforehand?

they can still be comparable even if Sanji is stronger, plus:

I do subscribe to EL Base Sanji >~ EL Base Zoro

u aint lie

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

Kaku: Fought, kept up with, even completely overpowered, and took more than one hit from someone equal to Enies Lobby Luffy. Kaku also cut clean through the Justice Tower and Jabra wouldn't have been able to dodge the completed and larger version of his Amane Dachi like he did the incompleted version. Or tank it via Tekkai. He'll also be predicting his opponent's movements during the fight, just like he did vs. Zoro.

Me: Kaku's above Jabra, so he wins.

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

they can still be comparable even if Sanji is stronger, plus:

The manga and databook already confirms who's stronger

u aint lie

And yet he did lie

 

[Kachon123]

Throughout his fight against Zoro, time and time again, he struggled against Kaku, because his attacks were for the most part very hard to telegraph, and his strange and bizarre moveset made it hard for him to fight back, which Zoro had noted. In fact, Zoro was pretty much on the defensive the whole fight, and managed to catch Kaku a few times (Gorilla, reading his Kaime, and Asura).

To be honest, the only reason Zoro was on the defensive here was because Kaku could either outrange him or out maneuver him with his neck and Geppou. These advantages do not exist for Jabra. With his Tekkai Kenpo, he'd be able to run through Kaku's Tekkai attacks. When blocking, Jabra should be able to block Kaku's Giraffe Gun attacks like he did to Sanji's Veau Veangence, which is far stronger than the attack that could clash with one of Jabra's strongest attacks (Okami Hajiki).

Jabra's biggest disadvantage in this fight is range and versatility. He will struggle MASSIVELY against Kaku's range, MUCH like Zoro did

Yeah, no. Definitely not. I'm not sure why people ignore the fact that Jabra has Rankyaku as well, and uses it very often in his fighting style. If Kaku wants to play the range battle, Jabra can either match him at that range with his own Rankyaku or match them with his own Rankyakus and rush forward to close the gap.

If Kaku tries to widen their distance with Soru or Geppou, Jabra would just follow with his own. If Kaku tries to range him, Jabra will just do the same.

Up close is where the fight is the least contentious funnily enough, with Jabra having the advantage. I honestly see no world where Kaku could or would outrange Jabra to the point where it is an issue with him. Jabra is a Rokushiki master just like Kaku is.

so the fact that Sanji's kicks were able to do damage past his Tekkai, means that Kaku wouldn't struggle AS MUCH, as one would think

Again, this isn't true. Literally the only time Sanji was able to even deal a hint of damage to Jabra's Tekkai is when he used Hachis Hash, which is a technique where Sanji preforms consecutive kicks one after the other. We know it's at least 7 based on the SFX. All of those kicks to do barely any damage.

Mind you, this is Jabra just standing there and tanking attacks. When he actually choses to use Tekkai Kenpo to block I doubt Kaku could do much to bypass it. Jabra was able to block Veau Vengeance unscathed from Sanji, which is one of his most powerful attacks and which consists of several kicks.

His MASSIVE range advantage is not something Jabra in my honest opinion, in close range, will be able to handle

Jabra does not have a range advantage. I'm still not sure where this came from.

he's just using his hands, which is a sizable disadvantage in any close ranged fight, especially if they're comparable in speed

It's not. One of the main points of Jabra's Zoan transformation that was highlighted is his claws that he uses to cut and slice when he fights up close.

While Jabra does have Soru, yes, he will struggle to use Soru when getting barraged by Kaku, seeing how he couldn't Soru out of Sanji's combo attacks, which are less attacks at the same time compared to Kaku (2 legs, vs 4ss). Not to say it isn't impossible, but it's very unlikely based on his showings.

If you're referring to this exchange, he was choosing to tank those attacks so that he could set up his Wolf Fang.

Also, I'm not sure if we can say that because Sanji only has 2 legs, he'd have a harder time avoiding Kaku's 4 limbed assaults, when Sanji himself could fight the likes of Queen and Bon Clay, whose attacks had more than two impacts.

Jabra was also able to Soru out of Sanji's combo here, so that point falls short.

 

[ZKillerz]

Kaku: Fought, kept up with, even completely overpowered, and took more than one hit from someone equal to Enies Lobby Luffy. Kaku also cut clean through the Justice Tower and Jabra wouldn't have been able to dodge the completed and larger version of his Amane Dachi like he did the incompleted version. Or tank it via Tekkai. He'll also be predicting his opponent's movements during the fight, just like he did vs. Zoro.

Me: Kaku's above Jabra, so he wins.

Why is zoro equal to enies lobby luffy?
What suggests Jabra cant dodge it and why couldn't he just clash with it? Why cant he tank it?
What is his lvl of prediction? How does this give him an edge in combat?

I'll count that as a vote

 

[ZKillerz]

The manga and databook already confirms who's stronger

when?

 

[Kachon123]

took more than one hit from someone equal to Enies Lobby Luffy

We only treat Zoro and Luffy's strongest attacks (Asura and Gear 3) as equal, and Zoro's oneshot Kaku.

 

[Kachon123]

I'll respond to any new posts tomorrow.

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

Why is zoro equal to enies lobby luffy?
What suggests Jabra cant dodge it and why couldn't he just clash with it? Why cant he tank it?
What is his lvl of prediction? How does this give him an edge in combat?

I'll count that as a vote

Zoro is equal to Enies Lobby Luffy because it's stated so in Databook Yellow and they also did a combine attack at the end of Water 7 (Seige Cannon) to get through the Aqua Laguna.

The final version of Kaku's Amane Dachi is too large to dodge since even Zoro couldn't avoid it, and just like Jabra he could dodge the incomplete version.

Why couldn't he clash with it? If Jabra couldn't clash with the incomplete version, then I don't see him clashing with the stronger and completed version.

What is Kaku's level of prediction? Idk, but someone like LordGinsama, Eminiteable, or KingTemptest probably would though.

How does it give him an edge in combat? Because he can predict his opponent's shit and his opponent doesn't have a single feat of doing the same, that's how it gives Kaku the edge.

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

We only treat Zoro and Luffy's strongest attacks (Asura and Gear 3) as equal, and Zoro's oneshot Kaku.

Since when?

 

[Nierre]

Again, this isn't true. Literally the only time Sanji was able to even deal a hint of damage to Jabra's Tekkai is when he used Hachis Hash, which is a technique where Sanji preforms consecutive kicks one after the other. We know it's at least 7 based on the SFX. All of those kicks to do barely any damage.

Oh fair, I had no idea it was a barrage kick.

Yeah, no. Definitely not. I'm not sure why people ignore the fact that Jabra has Rankyaku as well, and uses it very often in his fighting style. If Kaku wants to play the range battle, Jabra can either match him at that range with his own Rankyaku or match them with his own Rankyakus and rush forward to close the gap.

I wasn't even referring to Rankyaku tbh, but either way Kaku's Rankyaku is more impressive. His Rankyaku is Danmaku and I doubt Jabra's matching all of it

If Kaku tries to widen their distance with Soru or Geppou, Jabra would just follow with his own. If Kaku tries to range him, Jabra will just do the same.

Like I said I wasn't even referring to Rankyaku. I even explicitly said in my argument that Kaku excels with range, but in close range, and literally sent the feats to supplement my argument. I even said Jabra would have the advantage if he Soru's away from Kaku because I personally don't think it's in his best interest to fight in close range.

Jabra does not have a range advantage. I'm still not sure where this came from.

You're not reading my argument. You literally cut it out. Jabra will struggle in close range because of Kaku's massive range in close range, or in other words close-mid range, and 4ss, as well as unpredictability.

It's not. One of the main points of Jabra's Zoan transformation that was highlighted is his claws that he uses to cut and slice when he fights up close.

Claws are a MASSIVE disadvantage to anyone with swords, long ass neck, long ass nose, and 4 swords. You're just being disingenuous. Just because he's at a disadvantage in range, does not mean suddenly he will lose. It's obvious as day to anyone that Jabra is at a disadvantage due to range and numbers due to Kaku's body and swords.

Jabra was also able to Soru out of Sanji's combo here, so that point falls short.

That looked like a roll, but Sanji doing combo kicks is completely different from 4 swords and a neck/nose swinging at you at the same time

These Jabra arguments haven't been very convincing (at least those who have responded to me), either people aren't reading or are just choosing to ignore, because how are you going to say a mf with claws isn't at a disadvantage against someone with 4 swords in close range

For now @ZKillerz, change my vote to Kaku.

 

[ZKillerz]

Zoro is equal to Enies Lobby Luffy because it's stated so in Databook Yellow and they also did a combine attack at the end of Water 7 (Seige Cannon) to get through the Aqua Laguna.

The final version of Kaku's Amane Dachi is too large to dodge since even Zoro couldn't avoid it, and just like Jabra he could dodge the incomplete version.

Why couldn't he clash with it? If Jabra couldn't clash with the incomplete version, then I don't see him clashing with the stronger and completed version.

What is Kaku's level of prediction? Idk, but someone like LordGinsama, Eminiteable, or KingTemptest probably would though.

How does it give him an edge in combat? Because he can predict his opponent's shit and his opponent doesn't have a single feat of doing the same, that's how it gives Kaku the edge.

Unless I'm tripping thats only stated for thriller bark can you show the actual statement tho.
Also he does a combined attack with pre enies lobby luffy...

Zoro doesn't have moon walk so I dont think this is a good comparison. Also can you actually show what ur talking abt cuz I'm not that familiar with zoro vs kaku.

Jabura didn't clash with the incomplete version ≠ couldnt clash with the complete version, simply means he was playing it safe and saw no reason to exert himself to an extreme degree...

Alr so I dont see how you can argue it gives him an edge in combat if you cant even determine how good he is at predicting...

 

[ZKillerz]

For now @ZKillerz, change my vote to Kaku.

Gotcha

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

when?

Since both Zoro and Sanji were introduced into the manga. And the databooks that came out afterwards repeatedly has Luffy and Zoro as equals, with the Vivre Cards Databook confirming Zoro as the second strongest Straw Hat.

 

[ZKillerz]

Since both Zoro and Sanji were introduced into the manga. And the databooks that came out afterwards repeatedly has Luffy and Zoro as equals, with the Vivre Cards Databook confirming Zoro as the second strongest Straw Hat.

This is a weak argument, characters get amps and progress at different rates. Can you justify that this is the case for EL sanji and EL zoro?
I'm fine with zoro being the 2nd strongest at certain points in time. For example, alabasta zoro probably beats sanji due to his low lvl ryou. Same with thriller bark zoro as he has shisui and performed better against kuma. But enies lobby is a specific arc where zoro has no showings that indicate superiority

 

[XDragnoir]

Kaku has arguably a better Tekkai (literally let him no-sell his own Rokushiki attacks),

This makes as much as 0 sense.

Kaku and Jabra are almost equals in AP, so if Kaku can tank his attacks, a Tekkai master would obviously be able to do the same.

Since when?

Scaling it any other way causes inconsistencies, so it's just Ashura to G3.

And I guess maybe Base to Base too due to that feat against Aqua Laguna, but everything in between Zoro doesn't scale to Luffy.

 

[ZKillerz]

This makes as much as 0 sense.

Kaku and Jabra are almost equals in AP, so if Kaku can tank his attacks, a Tekkai master would obviously be able to do the same.

Scaling it any other way causes inconsistencies, so it's just Ashura to G3.

And I guess maybe Base to Base too due to that feat against Aqua Laguna, but everything in between Zoro doesn't scale to Luffy.

Ok if this is the rationale then sure
Ashura zoro = G3 luffy is whatever although I dont see why
But this still means Kaku doesn't scale and luffy would still have a speed advantage.

 

[ZKillerz]

Oh fair, I had no idea it was a barrage kick.

I wasn't even referring to Rankyaku tbh, but either way Kaku's Rankyaku is more impressive. His Rankyaku is Danmaku and I doubt Jabra's matching all of it

What is danmaku? I dont think Jabra has to have completely equal Rankyaku in order to not be at a significant disadvantage from afar, kaku can have a slight advantage.

Like I said I wasn't even referring to Rankyaku. I even explicitly said in my argument that Kaku excels with range, but in close range, and literally sent the feats to supplement my argument. I even said Jabra would have the advantage if he Soru's away from Kaku because I personally don't think it's in his best interest to fight in close range.

I think kaku will only have the range advantage with his neck as otherwise their limbs seem pretty similar.

Claws are a MASSIVE disadvantage to anyone with swords, long ass neck, long ass nose, and 4 swords.

I think Jabra makes it up as he can clash with his swords by using tekkai on top of his good durability.

You're just being disingenuous. Just because he's at a disadvantage in range, does not mean suddenly he will lose. It's obvious as day to anyone that Jabra is at a disadvantage due to range and numbers due to Kaku's body and swords.

eeh I can see him being at a disadvantage in the sense kaku can pressure him more effectively in cqc but i don't think Jabra even tends to fight in long extended trades of cqc so it doesn't make a significant difference. (look at the scans kachon sent for reference)

That looked like a roll, but Sanji doing combo kicks is completely different from 4 swords and a neck/nose swinging at you at the same time

fair

 

[XDragnoir]

These Jabra arguments haven't been very convincing (at least those who have responded to me), either people aren't reading or are just choosing to ignore, because how are you going to say a mf with claws isn't at a disadvantage against someone with 4 swords in close range

You're just ignoring that Kaku can't use tekkai and attack while Jabra can?

Kaku literally has to choose between doing ineffective attacks (Amane Dachi is the only thing in his whole Arsenal that can damage Jabra's Tekkai) while suffering damage back or block and get attacked while Jabra just gets away with Geppo and/or Soru.

4 swords are literally useless if they can't damage their target.

 

[Eseseso]

Why are the Jabra voters assuming that Jabra's Tekkai is as durable as Kaku's Tekkai?

Just because Kaku's Tekkai durability > Kaku's Rokushiki AP doesn't mean Jabra's Tekkai will endure it as well.

 

[ZKillerz]

Things kaku has going in his favor:

Versatility with body morphing abilities
Range advantage with his neck attacks
4 limbs to pressure in cqc
Swords as a medium to clash rather than his own body

Things jabra has going in his favor:

Mobility
Tekkai mid combat
Potentially higher stats with df along with more experience using it
Incorporation of soru with df abilities to grant him a potential speed advantage as kaku doesn't really use soru in character (at least while transformed)

As I said this is highly contentious and I can understand why people would vote for either side.

 

[ZKillerz]

Why are the Jabra voters assuming that Jabra's Tekkai is as durable as Kaku's Tekkai?

Just because Kaku's Tekkai durability > Kaku's Rokushiki AP doesn't mean Jabra's Tekkai will endure it as well.

Doriki correlates to durability and they are pretty much the same

I think it makes more sense to say Jabra can endure it than to say kaku has better tekkai.

 

[XDragnoir]

But this still means Kaku doesn't scale and luffy would still have a speed advantage.

Why does that matter? Wtf?

 

[ZKillerz]

Why does that matter? Wtf?

Someone else brought up kaku indirectly scaling to luffy.

 

[XDragnoir]

Things kaku has going in his favor:

Range advantage with his neck attacks

Can you explain why throwing your neck at someone who can tear it with claws is an advantage?

Like, the other advantages are barely advantages as well as they're nulled by Tekkai Kenpo and I am pretty sure Jabra has used his legs to kick/slash once or twice (not a whole style for Jabra sure, but saying someone using 4 limbs is an advantage seems at the very least a stretch) but the point is that using your neck as a weapon isn't a smart move at all, imagine a human throwing their heart at someone as a grenade, does that look like a smart move?

 

[ZKillerz]

Can you explain why throwing your neck at someone who can tear it with claws is an advantage?

Like, the other advantages are barely advantages as well as they're nulled by Tekkai Kenpo and I am pretty sure Jabra has used his legs to kick/slash once or twice (not a whole style for Jabra sure, but saying someone using 4 limbs is an advantage seems at the very least a stretch) but the point is that using your neck as a weapon isn't a smart move at all, imagine a human throwing their heart at someone as a grenade, does that look like a smart move?

Its a double edged sword now that I think of it.

 

[Eseseso]

Doriki correlates to durability and they are pretty much the same

I think it makes more sense to say Jabra can endure it than to say kaku has better tekkai.

Doriki does not correlate to Rokushiki.

 

[ZKillerz]

I also forgot kaku can increase the size of his limbs to grant him higher range now that I think of it.

 

[ZKillerz]

Doriki does not correlate to Rokushiki.

Someone else sent it
Doriki is implied to correlate to tekkai strength: "direct correlation to Tekkai strength."
Also at best we can just say his tekkai lvl compared to Jabra is arbitrary we cant claim its better by him tanking his own attack unless you can prove Jabra cant do the same.

 

[Eseseso]

Can you explain why throwing your neck at someone who can tear it with claws is an advantage?

Like, the other advantages are barely advantages as well as they're nulled by Tekkai Kenpo and I am pretty sure Jabra has used his legs to kick/slash once or twice (not a whole style for Jabra sure, but saying someone using 4 limbs is an advantage seems at the very least a stretch) but the point is that using your neck as a weapon isn't a smart move at all, imagine a human throwing their heart at someone as a grenade, does that look like a smart move?

Zoro thought the same thing that you did, and then Kaku proceeded to get the drop on him and spam rankyaku.

 

[XDragnoir]

Why are the Jabra voters assuming that Jabra's Tekkai is as durable as Kaku's Tekkai?

Just because Kaku's Tekkai durability > Kaku's Rokushiki AP doesn't mean Jabra's Tekkai will endure it as well.

Their AP is almost the same, that means Jabra's normal durability is already on par with Kaku's Rankyaku AP, in case you don't know, every physical fighter has their Dura > AP otherwise they would hurt themselves with each attack, meaning the average Rankyaku isn't doing much damage regardless of Tekkai.

Then when anyone adds Tekkai anyone else who is at most slightly above the user's AP will either do 0 damage or very minor damage. Blueno's Tekkai could block attacks from Sanji and still blocked an amped attack done by him, for example.

If you're telling me the best Tekkai user of the entire CP9, as he is the only one who mastered it to the point he could move, can't amp his dura to block attacks comparable to his own, when Blueno of all people could block attacks from someone stronger, well, that would be dumb IMO.

 

[XDragnoir]

Zoro thought the same thing that you did, and then Kaku proceeded to get the drop on him and spam rankyaku.

Didn't Kaku only spam Rankyaku in his Giraffe Cube mode?

 

[ZKillerz]

Zoro thought the same thing that you did, and then Kaku proceeded to get the drop on him and spam rankyaku.

This is only something kaku can really do if his opponent is close enough for his legs to reach. If Jabra was closer to his face than his torso then he would be at risk of taking damage, although its important to note kaku does seem to have impressive evasion skills especially with his neck.

 

[Da3ggman]

From what I'm reading, I'm gonna vote Jabra. His experience and arguably stronger AP/Dura Zoan amp should net him the win.

 

[Eseseso]

Didn't Kaku only spam Rankyaku in his Giraffe Cube mode?

Uh, NO.

His entire Yontoryu fighting style is Rankyaku based (hence the extra 2 "swords").

SMH

 

[Nierre]

You're just ignoring that Kaku can't use tekkai and attack while Jabra can?

Kaku literally has to choose between doing ineffective attacks (Amane Dachi is the only thing in his whole Arsenal that can damage Jabra's Tekkai) while suffering damage back or block and get attacked while Jabra just gets away with Geppo and/or Soru.

4 swords are literally useless if they can't damage their target.

if you think im ignoring Jabra's tekkai despite mentioning it multiple times in my post then that's all u lol

 

[XDragnoir]

Uh, NO.

His entire Yontoryu fighting style is Rankyaku based (hence the extra 2 "swords").

SMH

I wouldn't call that spamming, but I got what you meant.

Still not affecting Jabra's Tekkai Kenpo, which amps his AP btw, so Kaku simply isn't winning any exchange.

 

[XDragnoir]

if you think im ignoring Jabra's tekkai despite mentioning it multiple times in my post then that's all u lol

You literally said Kaku's body and swords were an advantage, when those can't even do damage to his Tekkai.