Grant Morrison's cosmology ( DC cosmo split )

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Well, I understand well as you said. However, U are saying "it's lower dimensional existences" meanwhile it's specifically mentioned " Lower realities " in perspective of lower structures, higher structures are higher reality to them. It just depends on the viewpoint of the structure. Viewing from the highest structure doesn't really make you unscalable. It's just a perspective, the whole structure actually qualify as R>F transcendence as well.

This is just plain waffling. Nothing is 1-A, and not close to 1-A+.

Are you ignoring the whole part? Aren't you? The structure itself work with R>F endlessly. Even if you don't want to accept endlessly, the Reality where Doom Patrol standing view the next structure as R>F, it also existing time-space like reality as well.

The structure itself indeed doesn't work like R>F. I already have the implication that you don't know how it works. The space-time argument is baseless and that's not what's needed for R>F.

We are getting messy, Well I accept they are painting but not just painting that's going through endlessly. The whole reality exist within the each layer of painting. The reality isn't just kind of painting. It having time-space inside there. Like I said before, the layers of painting are part of the Universe. U are saying like it can't be reflect cuz it's whole different reality. It's the different reality ( If we view it as the living being inside the painting reality ) however, It's exist inside the universe where Doom Patrol, Booster gold, Animal Man and Superman standing. Also, it reflects as the whole creation yes.

No, Reality holds the painting and everything goes down in a lesser dimensional degree via their smaller existence compared to the main reality.

Well, it directly said " Thought Robot devoid duality " by Quantum Superman. Captain Marvel said " Ultimate Good is Ultimate Evil " and the " Body of pure thought " which the philosophy that Grant Morrison based on said " It's absolute existence, that transcend everything like Dualism, Consciousness " I don't understand why are you still arguing with these while I already provided three statements.

Yeah, that's not mentioned in the comics nor ever implied. So that's completely baseless.

I can provide them but however, It would be out of topic, If I provide that scan. Since, It's not even related with Morrison's personal cosmology.

I don't know which point you're responding to but I'm glad you decided against it since it's not related to Morrison Cosmology.

Mind If I ask source?

The whole of Final Crisis mentions it. I assume you're talking about when Darkseid is called God, the final and last God of existence before he drags it all down into the singularity.

Well, we don't know Spectre is dead or not since the god is dead according to Rox Ogama. Yes, Angels aren't servants of Darkseid and you must know that they are vengeful, they want to revenge as Mandrakk/Rox Ogama killed the God. Well, " wounded or broken " can be refers to Dax Novu/Mandrakk as well. Since, Ultraman described Mandrakk/Dax Novu as a god during superman beyond. He also drained bleed as well during the Superman Beyond. However, you can't exactly said " A god that makes your universe wounded " refers to Darkseid.

Rox Ogama didn't state he killed that “God” yet but he did say he was broken and wounded just like Darkseid. Batman calls Darkseid a god that's crawling in the sewer and Rox Ogama shortly after saying that God is crawling into the darkness literally links up.

Also, it is unlikely it's referring to Dax Novu when that person is Mandrakk and his essence was corrupting Rox Ogama.

 

[Weaver261]

If they're standing in their real world as “Reality” and the painting goes downwards. Then that's a downward hierarchy that induces lower structure every time they go beneath each layer.

So unless you mention there is evidence of higher dimensional existence(which doesn't make sense since it is downwards) then it is smaller as the hierarchy goes down.

I don't think that's the case. It's clearly stated that existing inside the painting feels unreal and flat.
Regarding of perspective, it doesn't really matter. For example, you live at an apartment with six floors. You live at 3rd floor but you yourself doesn't realize the fact that you're living in 3rd floor and think you're living at ground floor becuz you've decided to never look down. So, the question is just becuz you believe you live at ground floor, does it deny the fact that you're living at 3rd floor?
Current problem also works the same way as this example. Just becuz you believe they are at base reality and that is the most basic level of cosmology, does it deny the fact that there're lower realities? You might say, well they are inferior to base reality so they are like 11-A. That's becuz of your belief in base reality being normal universe. To be honest, there's no concrete evidence to prove that.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I don't think that's the case. It's clearly stated that existing inside the painting feels unreal and flat.

No wonder.

Regarding of perspective, it doesn't really matter. For example, you live at an apartment with six floors. You live at 3rd floor but you yourself doesn't realize the fact that you're living in 3rd floor and think you're living at ground floor becuz you've decided to never look down. So, the question is just becuz you believe you live at ground floor, does it deny the fact that you're living at 3rd floor?
Current problem also works the same way as this example. Just becuz you believe they are at base reality and that is the most basic level of cosmology, does it deny the fact that there're lower realities? You might say, well they are inferior to base reality so they are like 11-A. That's becuz of your belief in base reality being normal universe. To be honest, there's no concrete evidence to prove that.

The analogy was off-putting and not at all connected to the story of the painting. I don't need to prove each layer of the painting is 11-A rather the OP would have to prove his point on how it’s 1-A because nothing is evidently pointing to 1-A.

 

[Weaver261]

No wonder.

The analogy was off-putting and not at all connected to the story of the painting. I don't need to prove each layer of the painting is 11-A rather the OP would have to prove his point on how it’s 1-A because nothing is evidently pointing to 1-A.

how is that off-putting? I'm not also asking you to prove anything. I'm stating that there's nothing to prove. The painting contains a world. That world contains another painting which contains another world. It goes on infinitely. When a character from base reality goes inside the painting world, it will feel unreal since this world is not as real as previous one. But that's only for the character who is from previous world. What's about the beings inside this world? For them, this is reality without knowing there's a more real reality. This would qualify R>F well enough. I don't understand which part you don't get.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

how is that off-putting? I'm not also asking you to prove anything. I'm stating that there's nothing to prove. The painting contains a world. That world contains another painting which contains another world. It goes on infinitely. When a character from base reality goes inside the painting world, it will feel unreal since this world is not as real as previous one. But that's only for the character who is from previous world. What's about the beings inside this world? For them, this is reality without knowing there's a more real reality. This would qualify R>F well enough. I don't understand which part you don't get.

The base Reality from which painting originated isn't 1-A, to begin with. Being a lower-dimensional being and jumping to a higher-dimensional existence is unwarranted for R>F since 1-A isn't dimensionally bound and is a disqualifier. We accept that each Earth is a 4D structure so how is that going to be 1-A simply because the lower hierarchy being jumps into a higher one?

Yeah, we're going to need proof that the hierarchy doesn't work down, and even then feeling “unreal” there is not the context needed for 1-A.

 

[Weaver261]

The base Reality from which painting originated isn't 1-A, to begin with. Being a lower-dimensional being and jumping to a higher-dimensional existence is unwarranted for R>F since 1-A isn't dimensionally bound and is a disqualifier. We accept that each Earth is a 4D structure so how is that going to be 1-A simply because the lower hierarchy being jumps into a higher one?

Yeah, we're going to need proof that the hierarchy doesn't work down, and even then feeling “unreal” there is not the context needed for 1-A.

See? that's becuz you are fixating on the idea of base reality not being 1-A. Seems like you haven't gathered enough contexts from the scans yet.
In the story, there's a painting that contains infinite recursive paintings. People from the base reality went inside the painting and their psychometric traces showed that they were feeling unreal and flat. That alone shows that previous base reality is more real than the current one thus making the current one merely a fiction. But none of their perspective are changed unlike transitioning through spatial dimensions.
There's the fifth horseman who brings the end of all thing and it tooks forms and ideas of each world and ascend to the base reality. From the perspective of people in lower realities, that being looks like a true gigantic horror. But when it reach the base reality, it's nothing more than a horse toy.
Hope this clear things up!

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

See? that's becuz you are fixating on the idea of base reality being 1-A. Seems like you haven't gathered enough contexts from the scans yet.

Because there's none to take?

In the story, there's a painting that contains infinite recursive paintings. People from the base reality went inside the painting and their psychometric traces showed that they were feeling unreal and flat. That alone shows that previous base reality is more real than the current one thus making the current one merely a fiction.

Each layer is a downward hierarchy, so it's pretty obvious the real one would feel more real. That's not the basis of 1-A. This would be the equivalent of calling the Sphere 1-A due to the need to adjust one physiology to fit larger realms than from the base reality.

But none of their perspective are changed unlike transitioning through spatial dimensions.
There's the fifth horseman who brings the end of all thing and it tooks forms and ideas of each world and ascend to the base reality. From the perspective of people in lower realities, that being looks like a true gigantic horror. But when it reach the base reality, it's nothing more than a horse toy.
Hope this clear things up!

I didn't need that but that only confirm more that there's nothing to suggest 1-A.

 

[Weaver261]

Each layer is a downward hierarchy, so it's pretty obvious the real one would feel more real. That's not the basis of 1-A. This would be the equivalent of calling the Sphere 1-A due to the need to adjust one physiology to fit larger realms than from the base reality.

This isn't even about the need of adjusting one's physiology. There's no way to get into the other level of painting without finding a contradictory idea or image which will lead to another painting. None of their physiology changes are needed to get into another level. It's just the feeling of knowing that you're a real person who is inside a fictional painting.
You can only access the higher painting by taking away the idea that formed the world of current painting level.
It's true the painting is not even 1-A when you viewed it from base reality. But the painting contains infinite hierarchy of ficitonal worlds. I think that's pretty good enough already. If you think it's not 1-A structure becuz the base reality that the painting exists isn't 1-A, will it be the same for mother leviathan from unwritten too? I mean if you look at from its perspective, these lower worlds aren't even matter.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

This isn't even about the need of adjusting one's physiology. There's no way to get into the other level of painting without finding a contradictory idea or image which will lead to another painting. None of their physiology changes are needed to get into another level. It's just the feeling of knowing that you're a real person who is inside a fictional painting.

Self-awareness isn't 1-A nor is trying to find and fit ideas to lead to another painting.

You can only access the higher painting by taking away the idea that formed the world of current painting level.

“Taking away idea” is meant to elicit what exactly? That's not 1-A.

It's true the painting is not even 1-A when you viewed it from base reality. But the painting contains infinite hierarchy of ficitonal worlds. I think that's pretty good enough already. If you think it's not 1-A structure becuz the base reality that the painting exists isn't 1-A, will it be the same for mother leviathan from unwritten too? I mean if you look at from its perspective, these lower worlds aren't even matter.

The painting exists in a downward hierarchy(So they don't upscale the current Reality). The deeper you go, the smaller the structure becomes, which isn't anything like the Levithan.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I'll leave this conversation for the rest of the other party to chime in with their thoughts. This argument won't go anywhere at this rate.

 

[Weaver261]

Self-awareness isn't 1-A nor is trying to find and fit ideas to lead to another painting.

It's about what is real and what isn't. Not to mention the worlds inside each painting are representations of art periods. The whole world is structured based on a specific idea. The horse took away these ideas and forms not just the destruction of the world.

The painting exists in a downward hierarchy(So they don't upscale the current Reality). The deeper you go, the smaller the structure becomes, which isn't anything like the Levithan.

I am also thinking this is not getting anywhere. The painting does exists in base reality but it contains infinite hierarchy of fictional representations of art periods. The next level of the painting doesn't get smaller. It's just how you view the next level from higher reality. It seems smaller becuz it's just a painting. You can't let go or accept the idea that the base reality isn't base reality but rathar the higher reality compared to infinity of lower worlds.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

This is just plain waffling. Nothing is 1-A, and not close to 1-A+.

The structure itself indeed doesn't work like R>F. I already have the implication that you don't know how it works. The space-time argument is baseless and that's not what's needed for R>F.

No, Reality holds the painting and everything goes down in a lesser dimensional degree via their smaller existence compared to the main reality.

Yeah, that's not mentioned in the comics nor ever implied. So that's completely baseless.

I don't know which point you're responding to but I'm glad you decided against it since it's not related to Morrison Cosmology.

The whole of Final Crisis mentions it. I assume you're talking about when Darkseid is called God, the final and last God of existence before he drags it all down into the singularity.

Rox Ogama didn't state he killed that “God” yet but he did say he was broken and wounded just like Darkseid. Batman calls Darkseid a god that's crawling in the sewer and Rox Ogama shortly after saying that God is crawling into the darkness literally links up.

Also, it is unlikely it's referring to Dax Novu when that person is Mandrakk and his essence was corrupting Rox Ogama.

You are making me laugh. The reality that's viewing the lower reality already qualifies as 1a. I don't think the reality should be 1a without Recursive Structures. Since, Recursive Structures already proved that the infinite hierarchy of canvas realities are Merely just a paint for the Universe.

I think U are getting complex by Ur arguments. At first, you said " they are R>F but downward hierarchies " after that, " They are just lesser dimensional structures, which aren't R>Fs which is high 1b at best " and " these aren't R>F structures, these are just paintings " I wonder what will you say next. Since, I already proved everything as far as I can. Also, " Time-space " isn't really point yes, but I used it prove the realities inside are not kind of just paintings, they are whole universe but just made up with multi-colored and hyper realistic for the viewpoint of higher existences. Which could qualify as 1a+ due to being the realities inside are actual realities which aren't kind of fixed existences, the layers of painting are recursively infinite.

Yes correct the lesser paintings will be lesser, however they can reflect as the whole universe as it mentioned " every parts " every parts would be contained the whole Reality including Recursive existences. Even the most possible smallest existence inside the the most possible smallest painting would become the whole reality.

Well, I've never said it's mentioned in Unexpected. The whole interview is kind of reference to the Superman beyond. Also, U must know that " to be continued " refers to the whole DC as Mandrakk failed to destroy the existence so, Yes DC stories will be continued since Thought Robot defeats him.

I love when you enojoy my reply when I said " I'll not provide it cuz it will out of topic " you must know that, in terms of reader's perspective, it will be truth.

Well, I thought Darkseid never meant to known as a God but known as a new god. Maybe, I just misreading or something? I've never seen Darkseid getting called as " God ".

Well, he never said the god is " Wounded and broke " just like Darkseid. He said the universe of superman is wounded and broken made by a dying god. Batman didn't said it's Darkseid. The rotten carcass body of god might refers to god that Rox Ogama mentioned. As, the Darkseid has been killed Orion and multiple entities during the final crisis. However, I still think Mandrakk/Rox Ogama killed that god since Angels are vengeful.

Well, yes however you must know that Rox Ogama was lesser threat compared to Dax Novu." Mandrakk " might be kind of title that's trying to continue Final Crisis. ( However, it's just a theory, if you don't accept that it's okay ) Since Rox Ogama drank the blood of Dax Novu unlike Zillo Vella while he was hungry.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

No wonder.

The analogy was off-putting and not at all connected to the story of the painting. I don't need to prove each layer of the painting is 11-A rather the OP would have to prove his point on how it’s 1-A because nothing is evidently pointing to 1-A.

You are making inverse, each parts really don't make 11a due to not being main reality lmao. 11a tier is fit for the looping book inside earth 33 which is repeating the same panel endlessly. But this structure is completely different as it contains the whole reality inside the structures which aren't kind of just a painting but a reality that is made by multi-colored and Hyper-realstic reality. I think it's hard for you to accept.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

The base Reality from which painting originated isn't 1-A, to begin with. Being a lower-dimensional being and jumping to a higher-dimensional existence is unwarranted for R>F since 1-A isn't dimensionally bound and is a disqualifier. We accept that each Earth is a 4D structure so how is that going to be 1-A simply because the lower hierarchy being jumps into a higher one?

Yeah, we're going to need proof that the hierarchy doesn't work down, and even then feeling “unreal” there is not the context needed for 1-A.

First of all, you are using " dimensional " again, idk you are trying to make things easier or not. However, they aren't kind of lower dimensional existence like 3d reality to 2d reality, 2d reality to 1d reality. They have their own existence like Time-space. Living existences that stated inside there are moving creatures. Also, where did it mentioned " earth is 4d " I and comics never said like yours. I only said there is space-time existence and we don't know what things exist inside there. You are making things funnier, lower one jumping onto higher one or higher one jumping into lower one really don't matter. As, they have values for each paintings. Higher one jumping inside the lower one is still valid ( since they are kind of existence like the main reality where canvas landed ) and the lower one jumping onto higher one is valid too. Jumping through higher/lower existence really don't matter if the reality have good quality to qualify as tier. You are just making your own perspective views.

Also, feeling unreal are common things for higher existence. When, Grant Morrison manifested into his comics book as a comic character, he would feel the same way since he became fictional and the true Morrison is from real life. The whole feelings would go same with Grant Morrison as Rebis mentioned that " multi-colored existence " which means the reality is made by multiple colour in their perspective but the perspective of entities inside there for not. No wonder they feel " unreal "

 

[Deagonx]

This thread has likely outlived it's intended purpose. At this point it's become more of a general cosmology discussion than a focused CRT, and it's implausible that a significant amount of staff members are going to evaluate this. Shall I close it now?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

This thread has likely outlived it's intended purpose. At this point it's become more of a general cosmology discussion than a focused CRT, and it's implausible that a significant amount of staff members are going to evaluate this. Shall I close it now?

Yes, you may.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, that is fine.

 

[Firestorm808]

Does the concept of recursive structures reappear anytime after their Doom Patrol run?

While the power difference between 5D imps and the 3D world has been demonstrated, we need some examples of these supposed higher 26 dimensions being infinite.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Does the concept of recursive structures reappear anytime after their Doom Patrol run?

No. At least not what's been already accepted of the Crisis Cosmology inclusion of Morrisons’ material.

 

[Weaver261]

Does the concept of recursive structures reappear anytime after their Doom Patrol run?

Yes, It reappears at Dayton Manor although it was seemly destroyed by Yankee Doodle. So, it is indestructible I guess. The infinite hierarchy of worlds inside the painting are still there.

 

[Firestorm808]

Yes, It reappears at Dayton Manor although it was seemly destroyed by Yankee Doodle. So, it is indestructible I guess. The infinite hierarchy of worlds inside the painting are still there.

Scans?

 

[Weaver261]

Scans?

Only a piece of it was left. Reappear in Teen Titan vol 3 again and people are still living in there

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Morrison didn't even write Teen Titans nor does any mention of hierarchy coming back just FYI. There's also no proof it's indestructible that's a presumption made that isn't supported by that scan. The Titan story has no correlation to Doom Patrol and any of how Morrison wrote the Cosmology even fit in the setting of the Teen Titan story.

 

[Weaver261]

Morrison didn't even write Teen Titans nor does any mention of hierarchy coming back just FYI. There's also no proof it's indestructible that's a presumption made that isn't supported by that scan. The Titan story has no correlation to Doom Patrol and any of how Morrison wrote the Cosmology even fit in the setting of the Teen Titan story.

I was wrong about being indestructible. It can regrow if It wasn't destroyed as a whole.
Morrison didn't write Teen Titan but that vol have doom patrol characters in the story.
You might try to say "it was destroyed. So, it won't matter anymore". However, it's a fact that this painting have infinite hierarchy of worlds inside it. Ik it's absurd to scale that but I can't deny a fact. Whether it goes downward or upward, the scaling remains unchanged. The worlds inside the painting has each of their own values and lives. If these aren't matter and not included in scaling, why not do the same for other cosmologies too? You can just say it's downward by viewing the cosmology from above and disregard the lower realities.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

The question was:

Does the concept of recursive structures reappear anytime after their Doom Patrol run?

While the power difference between 5D imps and the 3D world has been demonstrated, we need some examples of these supposed higher 26 dimensions being infinite.

I was wrong about being indestructible. It can regrow if It wasn't destroyed as a whole.
Morrison didn't write Teen Titan but that vol have doom patrol characters in the story.
You might try to say "it was destroyed. So, it won't matter anymore". However, it's a fact that this painting have infinite hierarchy of worlds inside it. Ik it's absurd to scale that but I can't deny a fact. Whether it goes downward or upward, the scaling remains unchanged. The worlds inside the painting has each of their own values and lives. If these aren't matter and not included in scaling, why not do the same for other cosmologies too? You can just say it's downward by viewing the cosmology from above and disregard the lower realities.

I pivoted my position as that's not how R>F works in the new standard we have. Thus none of what was presented in the “recursive structure as being a 1-A+ hierarchy” coherently suggests that the paintings are R>F based.

 

[Weaver261]

I pivoted my position as that's not how R>F works in the new standard we have. Thus none of what was presented in the “recursive structure as being a 1-A+ hierarchy” coherently suggests that the paintings are R>F based.

This is from the new system changes made by Ultima Reality

Reality-Fiction Transcendence is a state where a being is qualitatively superior to another world, as a result of seeing the world as fiction and thus being more 'real' than said world.

However, the medium in which they view the world as fiction generally does not matter, as it being fiction is enough for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence to be considered.

Potential mediums for viewing a cosmology as fiction include: written media (Books or stories), images (Paintings, comics, or movies), data (Simulations or video games), or mental constructs (thoughts or dreams). All of the above would be considered less 'real' than the person who views the cosmology as such, and can directly imply qualitative superiority.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

This is from the new system changes made by Ultima Reality

Yeah, the hierarchy goes down and the painting starts with the main reality. I've mentioned this. This means the lower reality has to be 1-A, and that's not foreseeable in any sense.

 

[Weaver261]

Yeah, the hierarchy goes down and the painting starts with the main reality. I've mentioned this. This means the lower reality has to be 1-A, and that's not foreseeable in any sense.

I also agree with this scaling being absurd. Even if R>F won't work becuz of reality equalization, it's also absurd to consider these realities as lower dimensions compare to the baseline reality becuz it goes on forever. If you consider baseline reality to be 4D becuz of reality equalization, as far as the lower they can go is to 0. But there're infinite. Then, how does it work? Since dimensional number are labeled by the degree of freedom, 0D would be dimensionless. you go on infinite by using negative numbers but that won't make sense.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

While the power difference between 5D imps and the 3D world has been demonstrated, we need some examples of these supposed higher 26 dimensions being infinite.

I'll not answer the first question since Weaver already answered it.

Well, as I said before, 8d reality appear as merely comic book to 9d existence as Allen Adam said. Which is qualitative Superiority.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

This thread has likely outlived it's intended purpose. At this point it's become more of a general cosmology discussion than a focused CRT, and it's implausible that a significant amount of staff members are going to evaluate this. Shall I close it now?

I understand you have to close it but maybe after our argument finished?

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Yeah, the hierarchy goes down and the painting starts with the main reality. I've mentioned this. This means the lower reality has to be 1-A, and that's not foreseeable in any sense.

Well, you are making everything thing complex. The existence of time/space inside the each reality, if you count the main reality as 5d, lesser 4 paintings will be maximum amount of leaser dimensional realities that can fit inside. As Weaver said, 6th layer would be undimension reality and the smaller realities may not be exist ( if you really count as dimensions or kind of lesser downward Hierarchy ). Even the reality that lies one step above most possible reality started as 1a and the higher realities would rise greater amount until we reached main reality. However, the example that I told you before is finite amount of realities but the realities are endless so, yea it would be 1a+

 

[Deagonx]

I understand you have to close it but maybe after our argument finished?

Arguments like this never finish.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I'll not answer the first question since Weaver already answered it.

Well, as I said before, 8d reality appear as merely comic book to 9d existence as Allen Adam said. Which is qualitative Superiority.

That is not at all what the comics said. I think this is getting pretty ridiculous in the interpretation department. Yeah, pretty clear the misuse of 1-A and 1-A+ is quite evident. I'll personally with closing this thread unless other mods want to evalute more.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

That is not at all what the comics said. I think this is getting pretty ridiculous in the interpretation department. Yeah, pretty clear the misuse of 1-A and 1-A+ is quite evident. I'll personally with closing this thread unless other mods want to evalute more.

I think, you are the one who misusing the scans. As I proved before,when cops shoot mister miracle, the bullet didn't reached to him instead, it went through beyond the comic panel.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I think, you are the one who misusing the scans. As I proved before,when cops shoot mister miracle, the bullet didn't reached to him instead, it went through beyond the comic panel.

Yes, because that's “totally” 1-A.

 

[Xearsay]

The Thought Robot is the “good” side of all dichotomy, making it clear that he does not lack duality, and the Overvoid had to define itself from the Flaw which represented every the Overvoid is not. Furthermore, all these claims that the Thought Robot is made up of "pure thoughts" are questionable since when the Thought Robot was activated, this is what the narration says: "Rusted eyelids... Split apart. The drifting smoke of galaxies, the veil of matter part and clear." Remember that there have been occasions where the Monitors have been wrong in their claims, such as claiming that they were the only ones able to take and consume the Bleed, while Superman was able to descend into the Material World with a piece of the Bleed and give it to the dying Lois Lane, proving the Monitors wrong.

This thread doesn’t really interest me however what you’re writing is a pretty big misinterpretation of what’s going on in Final Crisis and Multiversity. The origin from Multiversity is a story that was written on the wall of a cave by caveman 1000s of years prior to Kamandi discovering it. The cave story aims to tell an origin of the beginning of creation but obviously since it’s written from the perspective of caveman who are within creation, ie making them limited and bound by things like time, space, and definition, their depiction of the “beginning” is from that limited perspective. The Overvoid is truly Unknowable to them and doesn’t actually have differentiation or definition as it is called non-dual and “without definition” in the book of limbo which is a book of infinite pages that holds literally every possible arrangement of character strings and text. So from the Overvoids perspective there is nothing other than itself that exists.

Also how does that narration from Superman conflict with him describing himself as being “pure thought”? The whole statement is literally him describing how he’s opening his eyes to a realm without matter, which is not what he’s used to as he regularly operates in material reality. I digress, this isn’t a contradiction and the other instance of Superman bringing the elixir to save Lois is to display the long running and consistent narrative of Superman redrawing what’s possible, which is pretty major theme in this entire tie in. The Monitors are wrong because Superman can redefine what’s right.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Yes, because that's “totally” 1-A.

You finally accept that. Yes, it's 1a since it's just first layer of painting, don't forget they are endless. Which means 1a+

 

[Swanyee9t76]

I agree that the twenty-eight dimensions are not parallel, but what evidence do we have that these dimensions are higher dimensions with qualitative superiority ??

The Bleed containing multiverses was only a questionable statement from one comic, the more prominent Multiversity Map stated that the fifty-two brane universes are enclosed within the Bleed and Final Crisis mentioned the same.

The Thought Robot is the “good” side of all dichotomy, making it clear that he does not lack duality, and the Overvoid had to define itself from the Flaw which represented every the Overvoid is not. Furthermore, all these claims that the Thought Robot is made up of "pure thoughts" are questionable since when the Thought Robot was activated, this is what the narration says: "Rusted eyelids... Split apart. The drifting smoke of galaxies, the veil of matter part and clear." Remember that there have been occasions where the Monitors have been wrong in their claims, such as claiming that they were the only ones able to take and consume the Bleed, while Superman was able to descend into the Material World with a piece of the Bleed and give it to the dying Lois Lane, proving the Monitors wrong.

Sorry for not replying, I didn't see your quote. I already provided that 8th dimensional Reality appeared merely just a comic book in 9th dimensional reality.

You must know that, the flaw/the bleed contains the whole Cosmology, even Limbo. Morrison directly said " there are multiple Multiverses like Marvel, Archie verse are existing somewhere in the void and there are infinite amount of Multiverses " in DC book, it directly mentioned that bleed got cut off from the omniverse by source wall. Furthermore, Final Crisis never said " universes are enclosed within bleed " it's Orrery.

Well, I personally think Mandrakk and Cas both have duality after they get Rebirth and control. Quantum Superman said " It's not duality " to Thought Robot not to Superman with Cosmic Armor. Quantum Superman created a opposite duality quantum force to active Thought Robot. So, Yes, Cas represent Good side of all dichotomy and Mandrakk represent the opposite. But don't forget that Thought Robot and Dax Novu are not equal or something like opposite, since Dax created Thought Robot with divine metal along with multiverse machine. Cuz, Overvoid doesn't even noticed itself. Flaw is the one who make him noticable. Well, you must know that Monitors know everything as the whole story is manipulation of Zillo Vella to save the multiverse. She can simply give elixir to superman or just make a new one but she didn't cuz she want to use superman to save the multiverse. Zillo Vella already know that Cas will win at the end because of S.O.S. Most of monitors aren't that knowledgeable compared to Zillo Vella, that's why they said " you can't take it to germ world ". None of monitors said " Thought Robot is made up with a body of pure thought. " Cas confirmed himself that thought robot is structured with a body of pure thought.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

This thread doesn’t really interest me however what you’re writing is a pretty big misinterpretation of what’s going on in Final Crisis and Multiversity. The origin from Multiversity is a story that was written on the wall of a cave by caveman 1000s of years prior to Kamandi discovering it. The cave story aims to tell an origin of the beginning of creation but obviously since it’s written from the perspective of caveman who are within creation, ie making them limited and bound by things like time, space, and definition, their depiction of the “beginning” is from that limited perspective. The Overvoid is truly Unknowable to them and doesn’t actually have differentiation or definition as it is called non-dual and “without definition” in the book of limbo which is a book of infinite pages that holds literally every possible arrangement of character strings and text. So from the Overvoids perspective there is nothing other than itself that exists.

Also how does that narration from Superman conflict with him describing himself as being “pure thought”? The whole statement is literally him describing how he’s opening his eyes to a realm without matter, which is not what he’s used to as he regularly operates in material reality. I digress, this isn’t a contradiction and the other instance of Superman bringing the elixir to save Lois is to display the long running and consistent narrative of Superman redrawing what’s possible, which is pretty major theme in this entire tie in. The Monitors are wrong because Superman can redefine what’s right.

Totally agree and I think it possibly could be manipulation of Zillo Vella. Since Mandrakk already holding elixir when he wasn't monitor anymore.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

You finally accept that. Yes, it's 1a since it's just first layer of painting, don't forget they are endless. Which means 1a+

I was being sarcastic.