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At Least Universal DMC and more continued

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Dante Demon Killah said:
We should focus on Argosax and Nightmare feats, honestly
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This, honestly. And when I have time I'll return to tackle them.

Mundus' feat is contradictee by far too many things and it being Universal creation is not only unsupported in-game by anything but the word of an unreliable creator who only threw a one word response after years of people pestering him about Who would Win questions.

The underworld demonstrably never collapsed so arguing about it is pointless as well.

Argosax is the one guy who warrants discussion.
 
@Matthew Schroeder

Wasn't aware of Kamiya statement regarding the underworld and repeatedly mentioned that his WoG doesn't have to be used, so don't bring it up.Also guidebook being third party doesn't matter when capcom is heavily involved with it.Name contradictions for Mundus feat being 3-A.
 
Screw it, let's discuss the Argosax and other feats, for now.I'm gonna play Sekiro but I'll be in and out of the discussion.
 
wait the discussion was whether the underworld collapsed? I thought only a destabilization happened and if dante didn't get out he would get trapped. Honestly was thinking more on the lines of the dimension thing but if we're gonna ignore that and focus on agrosax its better
 
So much for determining Mundus for 3-A when another potential candidate was right under our goddamned noses.

All hail Argosax, our lord and savior.
 
Hi there everyone, great job on this thread!

If I may add something to what Kamiya said about the underworld not collapsing, it could either mean these two things:

- For some reason, Kamiya just didn't understand.

- Mundus created his own separate realm and it was different from the actual demon world. Perhaps Mundus verse was the one that has fallen, not the underworld, which is why Kamiya was left confused. (because as you can see, the underworld is still present throughout all of the games).


Keep up the great work everyone and thank you for continuing the thread.
 
Toshiohex said:
Hi there everyone, great job on this thread!

If I may add something to what Kamiya said about the underworld not collapsing, it could either mean these two things:

- For some reason, Kamiya just didn't understand.

- Mundus created his own separate realm and it was different from the actual demon world. Perhaps Mundus verse was the one that has fallen, not the underworld, which is why Kamiya was left confused. (because as you can see, the underworld is still present throughout all of the games).


Keep up the great work everyone and thank you for continuing the thread.
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That second solution seems pretty reasonable to me, does anybody else have an opinion on the topic?
 
i'm pretty sure its the latter and would make more sense as like everyone should point out the demon world is still there
 
Honestly? While it does make more sense it is still a headcanon based on practically anything, attempting to make sense of a statement which is far more reasonably assumed to have been wrong or straight up ignored.

Debating works by finding evidence to support your claims, not making claims to support shaky evidence.

I mean no offense to anyone, but the notion that Mundus created a universe despite no physical or real evidence in the games themselves is getting ridiculous.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Honestly? While it does make more sense it is still a headcanon based on practically anything, attempting to make sense of a statement which is far more reasonably assumed to have been wrong or straight up ignored.Debating works by finding evidence to support your claims, not making claims to support shaky evidence.
I mean no offense to anyone, but the notion that Mundus created a universe despite no physical or real evidence in the games themselves is getting ridiculous.
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Agree 100% with Matt on the collapse thing.Don't care wether or not someone believes the feat is 3-A or 4-C or whatever I care about the feat being taken as illusion or creation or whatever and I strongly believe the feat to be creation and that is backed up by the game.
 
I honestly don't see any reason to believe the Mundus feat isn't creation. Dante and Mundus are clearly floating and the structure of the fight makes no sense in the temple. I also don't see why Mundus would create a dimension with a bunch of bright dots resembling stars instead of just going straight to the storm part of the fight.

The only real way I could see this making sense, if it isn't a universe creation feat (or at least a high 4-A feat) is if Mundus simply teleported he and Dante into space, then to a storm and finally a volcano but I haven't heard or seen anything to indicate that would be the case.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
The only real way I could see this making sense, if it isn't a universe creation feat (or at least a high 4-A feat) is if Mundus simply teleported he and Dante into space, then to a storm and finally a volcano but I haven't heard or seen anything to indicate that would be the case.
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^This.

Here are the instances of Mundus teleporting and using a portal .Both are visually and functionally different from what happened in the creation scene, which rules out both of these options as interpretation for the scene, which leaves illusion and creation as the final two options and Ogbunabli's post proves why the feat isn't an illusion and so creation is the only option left.Also, still trying to find the scan of the "volcano" being created by Mundus, the thunderstorm is obviously created by him as shown in the teleporting clip, he can manipulate weather.
 
I understand the scale of Mundus' dimension being debatable, but I really don't see why there is still any doubt about it being a creation feat. I still agree with it being 3-A, but there have been some at least decent arguments thrown around against it being universe sized. Are there any major rebuttals against it being a creation feat that still need to be considered?
 
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
The dimension is 4-A at most, and is far higher than anything else in the verse.
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It being far higher than other feats is no grounds for claiming it to be an outlier, especially when the feat is performed by a god-tier, and Argosax, who's stated to be equal to Mundus, has a feat of similar magnitude.
 
Updating the list...

Agree:

18(19?) (Dienomite22, Sparda 20000000, Me, AstralKing7(?), AogiriKira, Ogbunabali, DarkGrath, Tony di bugalu, ParadoxIndifferent, TISSG7Redgrave, ShiroyashaGinSan, Kepekley23 & Dante Demon Killah [on Argosax's feat in particular. Kep also sorta greenlit it], BlackDarkness679, DMUA, Kyo Takashi, Callsign Castle, CryoTheMayo, Sir sun man)

Disagree:

4 (Matthew Schroeder, The real cal howard, Paul Frank, TriforcePower1 [on Mundus' feat in particular])

Neutral:

4 (Ryukama, Dragonmasterxyz, Dark649, Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan)

I'd like to know Kepekley's definitive opinion as well.
 
RebubleUselet said:
Updating the list...
Agree:

17(18?) (Dienomite22, Sparda 20000000, Me, AstralKing7(?), AogiriKira, Ogbunabali, DarkGrath, Tony di bugalu, ParadoxIndifferent, TISSG7Redgrave, ShiroyashaGinSan, Kepekley23 & Dante Demon Killah [on Argosax's feat in particular. Kep also sorta greenlit it], BlackDarkness679, DMUA, Kyo Takashi, Callsign Castle, CryoTheMayo)

Disagree:

4 (Matthew Schroeder, The real cal howard, Paul Frank, TriforcePower1 [on Mundus' feat in particular])

Neutral:

4 (Ryukama, Dragonmasterxyz, Dark649, Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan)

I'd like to know Kepekley's definitive opinion as well.
Click to expand...
i agree too(aspesialy with the argosax feat)
 
An outlier is literally defined as a feat higher than the usual scale of characters.

What rating is Argosax's feat? If it is 3-A it's ridiculously higher than 4-A, let alone the Tier 7 and 6 feats.
 
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
An outlier is literally defined as a feat higher than the usual scale of characters.

What rating is Argosax's feat? If it is 3-A it's ridiculously higher than 4-A, let alone the Tier 7 and 6 feats.
Click to expand...
The god-tiers do not have the usual scale aside from these two feats. Also, all the Tier 7/6 feats come from mid-tier characters, who are fodderized by the likes of Mundus and Argosax.
 
This is a point that really isn't addressed enough in these discussions; the God Tiers of DMC have practically no feats to base off of. Almost all of the feats in the series have been from blatantly far weaker characters, and the only things we have to go off of is that: 1: The God Tiers are far stronger by a difficult to define amount 2: The only times the limits of God Tiers are shown is when fighting other God Tier characters You can argue all you like about these feats being far higher than other feats in the series; it really doesn't change much. The feats currently being used for scaling are feats we explicitly know are massive low-ball estimates; so it's not only reasonable, but it should be expected that these feats would be very far beyond the other feats in the franchise.
 
To be frank, this is the equivalent of arguing that Persona 3's Nyx's dimension feat is an outlier, because it's far above other feats in the game.
 
In the game, but not in the verse. Persona god tiers are Low 2-C.
 
Sera EX said:
In the game, but not in the verse. Persona god tiers are Low 2-C.
Click to expand...
I mean, yeah, but it's still ridiculous.

On a side note, only Sparda DT & DMC5 Dante would scale to the feats currently discussed. Argosax in 2 was defeated due to PIS.
 
I'm going to sound like an idiot by saying this, but what is PIS again? I'm incredibly tired and sick over here, and I'm hurting my head trying to remember that acronym. Could you remind me?
 
DarkGrath said:
I'm going to sound like an idiot by saying this, but what is PIS again? I'm incredibly tired and sick over here, and I'm hurting my head trying to remember that acronym. Could you remind me?
Click to expand...
Plot-Induced Stupidity.

While Argosax's world merging is a thing, Dante doesn't scale (yet), due to the power of plot being involved. He hijacked the ritual where Arius was going to unseal Argosax and arguably fought it not at its full power.
 
I thought he was at full power though, wasn't he? Remind me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I last played DMC2 (for good reason...) but I remember Lucia expressing confusion over how it appeared as though the ritual completed despite Dante sabotaging it. It was something along the lines of "What? But I thought the ritual was incomplete". While I don't think it was ever explained how the ritual finished despite Dante's sabotaging, it appeared as though it did.
 
I don't think that the Savior Feats are even worth discussing at all, either. Looking at the scans, there is absolutely no proof that they were created by the Savior's power or even literally held within its body.

Same thing with the Nightmare from Devil May Cry 1, again it being a real dimension it created is not indicated much less proved anywhere at all.

We must not act based on conjecture and instead look at conclusive evidence.
 
About Nightmare stuff, did really had a Sun on that dimension ? The important part of this feat is the Sun, without it, even if it is a dimension created by him or Mundus, it wouldn't be Tier 4/3
 
Uh...people appear to be forgetting something about Mundus's death making the Underworld collapse.

Mundus was weakened and dying while it was collapsing. When Dante is about to escape, a weakened Mundus appears from the portal and Dante seals him before he dies. Hence why the Underworld did not actually collapse and is intact in other games - because Dante sealed Mundus before his death, holdng him on a stasis-like state, and thus preventing its collapse.
 
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