At Least Universal DMC and more continued

[Kepekley23]

Dante beating Argosax is indeed PIS, he needed a ton of prep-time and a form never seen in the series again in order to match Mundus, he went up against Argosax in Base Form. In DMC5 it's made even more clear that Base Dante shouldn't be strong enough to beat Argosax.

Arius did drain some of Argosax's powers. That was his whole plan, as stated by himself. He wanted to obtain Argosax's powers. He manages to get an unknown portion of it.

So that's both the failed ritual and Arius hindering him in the fight.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Freeman & Kep seem to make sense here.

As of Freeman's last reply, I think option 2 is correct. To add, DMC5 Dante would scale too, since he absorbed Devil Sword Sparda and defeated Urizen, who is stronger than Mundus, and by proxy Argosax.

 

[Dark649]

Arius never drained Argosax's powers, he was just possessed by him.

Still, Arius-Argosax and Lucia are far below to the actual Argosax.

 

[Maxnumb231]

"Exact text: ÒâáÒâ│ÒâëÒéÑÒé╣Òü¿ÕÉîþ¡ëÒü«ÕèøÒéƵîüÒüñÚ¡öþòîÒü«ÞªçþÄï (Demon King with power equal to Mundus)."

 

[Kepekley23]

Yes, the DMC5 History Vid did indeed state that the version of Argosax that Dante fought was the one equal to Mundus. It just doesn't make sense and breaks the powerscaling. It makes more sense if you assume they meant a full-power, unhindered Argosax.

 

[Dark649]

"Exact text: ÒâáÒâ│ÒâëÒéÑÒé╣Òü¿ÕÉîþ¡ëÒü«ÕèøÒéƵîüÒüñÚ¡öþòîÒü«ÞªçþÄï (Demon King with power equal to Mundus)."

It doesn't specify which form it was.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Wait, we're saying that Despair Embodiment (that you actually fight in the game) = Mundus because of just that history video, or is there something else? I mean, we could just say that video was shaving out details about Argosax getting nerfed.

But anyway, if we're going with option #2, we're saying that DMC2 novel & game were outlier wins that nevertheless affirm power of actual god tiers (not base Dante), right? We could argue that DMC2 Argo we fight was nerfed, but the novel's harder to dispute. Base Dante beat Void Mundus, right? No special forms or weapons or anything?

 

[Sparda_20000000]

Dante gets stronger each game and again it is hinted that he has surpassed sparda at this point

Dante stomped void mundus who is stronger than argosax

The history of dmc said argosax couldn't match Dante

Urizen is stonger then pre sin dt and sparda remember he didn't even consider the sparda as a threat and stomped Dante even with the sparda

 

[Lightning_XXI]

We can't say "lol PIS" just to make things easier for a Tier 3/4 upgrades, the fact is that Argosax in that fight is stated to be comparable to Mundus, and nothing contradicts this, since Arius didn't drained Argosax and the ritual was basically, for what we see, to open a portal to let Argosax do his demon things

We also have Dante already being capable of defeating a stronger Mundus casually a few months before the events of DMC2

For Urizen, we have statements of him being stronger than Mundus even before eating the fruit

The Fruit > Tree argument is not valid in this case because the tree wasn't the only source for Urizen's powers, he also had the Devil Bringer, Yamato and Vergil's strengh in his side

We have feats for Argosax and if it gets accepted, everyone who scales to him is *whatever tier that feat is*, simple

 

[Kepekley23]

Has the anime's timeline placement been retconned too? I know it's irrelevant since Sidgail doesn't scale to Mundus, just wondering which version of Dante went up against Sid

 

[Dienomite22]

"Exact text: ÒâáÒâ│ÒâëÒéÑÒé╣Òü¿ÕÉîþ¡ëÒü«ÕèøÒéƵîüÒüñÚ¡öþòîÒü«ÞªçþÄï (Demon King with power equal to Mundus)."

It doesn't specify which form it was.

It was showing Despaired Embodied when it said it.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Has the anime's timeline placement been retconned too? I know it's irrelevant since Sidgail doesn't scale to Mundus, just wondering which version of Dante went up against Sid

Last time I checked, it takes place between DMC1 and DMC2

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Ok, imma repost those three options we have and their implications, gimmie a sec, please.

 

[Kepekley23]

Argosax is surrounded by PIS. Even before the events of the game he got beaten by a literal fodder-tier sealed Sparda.

 

[Dienomite22]

Wait, we're saying that Despair Embodiment (that you actually fight in the game) = Mundus because of just that history video, or is there something else? I mean, we could just say that video was shaving out details about Argosax getting nerfed.
But anyway, if we're going with option #2, we're saying that DMC2 novel & game were outlier wins that nevertheless affirm power of actual god tiers (not base Dante), right? We could argue that DMC2 Argo we fight was nerfed, but the novel's harder to dispute. Base Dante beat Void Mundus, right? No special forms or weapons or anything?

base Dante

 

[Lightning_XXI]

DMC1 Dante: 7-B

Anime Dante: 7-A

DMC2 Dante: At least 6-C

Talk about good scalling

 

[Dark649]

It was showing Despaired Embodied when it said it.

Now that i see it, the figure is indeed that also since that is the strongest form of Argosax.

 

[Dienomite22]

Argosax is surrounded by PIS. Even before the events of the game he got beaten by a literal fodder-tier sealed Sparda.

If Dante + Trish can seal Mundus and fodder Sparda + Clan can seal Argosax then that just displays the power of sealing

 

[Kepekley23]

I guess the novel feat makes Base Dante beating Argosax easier to eat up.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

DMC2 Dante: At least 6-C

If you're talking about the Qliphoth, nobody should scale to it, as its growth is simply a natural phenomena in the Underworld.

I may get back to Sidgail's feat and try to argue for it being High 6-A, when we're done here.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Argosax is surrounded by PIS. Even before the events of the game he got beaten by a literal fodder-tier sealed Sparda.

"Fodder" Sparda still had both Rebellion and Yamato with portions of his powers sealed in it

We don't how Strong Sparda is while sealed, we don't know how the fight was

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

@Kaptain Kep -- I don't think Sparda was complete fodder without Sword of Sparda, and besides, sealing (which is what he and the Wiccans did to Argosax) doesn't necessarily entail AP. Gimmie a sec for my other post, please.

 

[Sera_EX]

The Fruit > Tree argument is not valid in this case because the tree wasn't the only source for Urizen's powers, he also had the Devil Bringer, Yamato and Vergil's strengh in his side

Are you implying that Urizen, who is half of Vergil, is > Vergil w/o tree??

 

[Dark649]

I may get back to Sidgail's feat and try to argue for it being High 6-A, when we're done here.

I thought the feat had a kinetic energy of just 7-A, i think he will not return to High 6-A due that previous discussion.

 

[Maxnumb231]

Argosax is surrounded by PIS. Even before the events of the game he got beaten by a literal fodder-tier sealed Sparda.

Needing the 4 arcana seals and ysing sparda DA. So no he was not fodder, in fact sparda was said to split his power into three swords but we know Sparda gains more power than the other two due to many statements pf it having great power within. So no sparda was nore or less 1/3 of hispower agaisnt argosax.

Youre giving me this fallacious arguments that statements in the game proves this. Dante has beaten Balrog who called Argosax his partner snd without him it wont get bored. Literally meaning balrog in thenovel is comparable to Argosax. Here we have dante making Balrog give up on his own will.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

If you're talking about the Qliphoth, nobody should scale to it, as its growth is simply a natural phenomena in the Underworld.

I may get back to Sidgail's feat and try to argue for it being High 6-A, when we're done here.

Yeah, but the Tree itself is "alive", hunting human Blood and it is capable of doing that feat on it's own, with the fruit directly stated to be superior to the tree's power

Many things are natural phenomena and people scale to it for being stronger than them

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

I thought the feat had a kinetic energy of just 7-A, i think he will not return to High 6-A due that previous discussion.

No that's for vaping the clouds. KE is High 6-A.

 

[Kepekley23]

@Max

Balrog wasn't stated to be Argosax's partner, he was his second in command/right-hand man. That's like calling Snape comparable to Voldemort, or Ginyu comparable to Freeza.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Again, you guys will have to fill in the gaps for DMC5, but here:

1.) Everyone is 3-A. Sparda-Dante fought Mundus w/ a 3-A feat, Dante fought an Argosax with 3-A feats who also scales to Mundus, and, though this is by no means primary evidence, there are also the Savior & Arkham & Abigail, who each drew upon God-tier power, albeit to an unknown extent. I have no idea what DMC5 collaborates or debunks of this.

2.) Only Sparda Dante is 3-A, and defeating certain guys in that territory were either PIS or in weakened states. But the DMC2 novel contradicts this because Base Dante beat a 3-A Void Mundus. The Argosax we fight is possibly at peak (read: God-tier) power when we battle him, too. I have no idea what DMC5 collaborates or debunks of this.

3.) No one is 3-A because guys like Base Dante and Nero scale, and... they don't seem 3-A? This one's actually starting to seem less plausible to me, but I'll have to defer to an opponent to make this point; I don't want to create a strawman. I have no idea what DMC5 collaborates or debunks of this.

Okay, how does that look?

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Yeah, but the Tree itself is "alive", hunting human Blood and it is capable of doing that feat on it's own, with the fruit directly stated to be superior to the tree's power

Many things are natural phenomena and people scale to it for being stronger than them

Except scaling DMC2 Dante to it makes absolutely no sense, and the fruit amps you to 3-A, which is evident by Mundus, so that would make DMC2 Dante 3-A as well, which is being argued right now.

 

[Dark649]

No that's for vaping the clouds. KE is High 6-A.

Still, i don't see the two returning to High 6-A due to what happened in that downgrade thread.

 

[Sera_EX]

You mean Zarbon comparable to Frieza

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

@Freeman

I find Option 2 to be more likely.

EDIT: Nevermind. Option 1 is as plausible.

 

[Kepekley23]

Scaling anyone to the Tree is absolutely atrocious. DMC5's lore outright tells us that what allowed Mundus to dethrone the former Demon King and rise to power as the strongest was eating the fruit.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

The Fruit > Tree argument is not valid in this case because the tree wasn't the only source for Urizen's powers, he also had the Devil Bringer, Yamato and Vergil's strengh in his side

Are you implying that Urizen, who is half of Vergil, is > Vergil w/o tree??

It's possible since without the tree, Urizen still had Vergil's physical might (V, the other half, is literally just a human) and the Devil Bringer, which V stated to be a "great deal of power"

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

I'd like to hear Kep & Dark & Sera & some other vets on my three options. That way, we can all know what stances we each are taking, and what they imply. Communication and implication are key.

A breakdown as to what DMC5 plot implies for each option would be helpful, as well.

 

[Dienomite22]

It's possible to get to Mundus's level without eating the Fruit, Argosax never ate the Fruit and neither has Sparda but in Sparda's(as well as Nero's and Dante) case humanity = power.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Except scaling DMC2 Dante to it makes absolutely no sense, and the fruit amps you to 3-A, which is evident by Mundus, so that would make DMC2 Dante 3-A as well, which is being argued right now.

DMC2 Dante, that guy who defeated Void Mundus ?

Also, nobody is talking about this:

"We can't say "lol PIS" just to make things easier for a Tier 3/4 upgrades, the fact is that Argosax in that fight is stated to be comparable to Mundus, and nothing contradicts this, since Arius didn't drained Argosax and the ritual was basically, for what we see, to open a portal to let Argosax do his demon things

We also have Dante already being capable of defeating a stronger Mundus casually a few months before the events of DMC2

For Urizen, we have statements of him being stronger than Mundus even before eating the fruit

The Fruit > Tree argument is not valid in this case because the tree wasn't the only source for Urizen's powers, he also had the Devil Bringer, Yamato and Vergil's strengh in his side

We have feats for Argosax and if it gets accepted, everyone who scales to him is *whatever tier that feat is*, simple"

Scaling anyone to the Tree is absolutely atrocious. DMC5's lore outright tells us that what allowed Mundus to dethrone the former Demon King and rise into power as the strongest was eating the fruit.

It was stated that the Fruit is more powerful than the tree in the game, Mundus ate it so he's stronger than the Qliphoth, who have a 6-C feat

 

[Sparda_20000000]

Dante absorbing the sparda and rebellion gave him more power then urizen eating the fruit

 

[Kepekley23]

By "anyone" I meant non-God Tiers, if that wasn't absolutely clear.