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If you look around, you will see a glowing circular thing behind a vortex of clouds,it shines the area you fight the enemis of that dimension,else it would be dark in thereDante Demon Killah said:
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At Least Universal DMC and more continued
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The mirror dimension has one like that too from which lights comes out of
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The Nightmare Feat has no sun. It has a swirling black vortex where the sun would be, but no sun at all. It's purely unquantifiable
At best you can say that the dimension is the size of the island.
At best you can say that the dimension is the size of the island.
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I agree tooRebubleUselet said:
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Plot-Induced Stupidity.
While Argosax's world merging is a thing, Dante doesn't scale (yet), due to the power of plot being involved. He hijacked the ritual where Arius was going to unseal Argosax and arguably fought it not at its full power.
That doesn't make any sense Dante stomp void mundus who is stronger than mundus and argosax
In the history of dmc they said argosax couldn't match dante
While Argosax's world merging is a thing, Dante doesn't scale (yet), due to the power of plot being involved. He hijacked the ritual where Arius was going to unseal Argosax and arguably fought it not at its full power.
That doesn't make any sense Dante stomp void mundus who is stronger than mundus and argosax
In the history of dmc they said argosax couldn't match dante
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If the saviour did create the pocket dimension it would scale to those that are currently 7-BDark649 said:
The power the sparda gave the saviour was incomplete because Sanctus rejected his humanity. The saviour was even weaker when we see the pocket dimension because Nero wasn't absorbed in the core
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Also keep in mind Argosax is it's first form.
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I mean, yeah, but it's still ridiculous.
On a side note, only Sparda DT & DMC5 Dante would scale to the feats currently discussed. Argosax in 2 was defeated due to PIS.
Elaborate on how Dante low diffing Argosax in bis despair embodied is a PIS?? this is also supported by the fact DMC2 novel takes place before DMC2 and Dante had a mid difficulty fight with a stronger mundus.
DMC4, and DMC2 dante WILL be scaled above Argosax who is equal to mundus in DMC1.
On a side note, only Sparda DT & DMC5 Dante would scale to the feats currently discussed. Argosax in 2 was defeated due to PIS.
Elaborate on how Dante low diffing Argosax in bis despair embodied is a PIS?? this is also supported by the fact DMC2 novel takes place before DMC2 and Dante had a mid difficulty fight with a stronger mundus.
DMC4, and DMC2 dante WILL be scaled above Argosax who is equal to mundus in DMC1.
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Even if we ignore these 3-A stuff this feats such as Saviors, mundus or argosax is WAYYY above high 6-A let alone 7B
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Here's the recreation scan.
Keep in mind this recreation of Ferrum Hills (and the other stages besides Agnus) houses visible suns and moons.
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"Nero fights himself in a nightmarish recreation of Ferrum Hills"
That's all you have? Splendid.
It doesn't confirm that they're literally inside the Savior. It doesn't confirm that the Savior created them. It doesn't confirm if they're real or illusory / mental. And it doesn't confirm anything else, too.
It's way too vague to be used.
That's all you have? Splendid.
It doesn't confirm that they're literally inside the Savior. It doesn't confirm that the Savior created them. It doesn't confirm if they're real or illusory / mental. And it doesn't confirm anything else, too.
It's way too vague to be used.
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A succinct OP with links? Feel as if I'm looking at the Monolith. Well, it's been a while, yet I'll throw my Faust Hat into the ring, but heads up; I'm busy trying to care for my extremely pained mom, as well as get my next writings finished and further my learning Spanish and such, so I apologize if I drop off the radar or fail to respond. Or spontaneously go insane, but that's been a risk I've ran my whole life, anyway! Ha ha ha! Ha..
Anyway, I'm probably for the upgrade (somewhat agnostic), so I guess I'll address some worthy objections (though I think the ball's in their court at the moment). We're using the Nightmare feat to say Mundus has a record of sizable creation feats, and inside the Nightmare that Mundus created is a void-thing meant to a an equivalent of a sun, ergo Tier 4-ish. Reasoning that supports this is that there is a Mirror World between the Human World and the Demon World (it mirrors the former) that has a similar void-thing in place of where the Human World side of Mallet Island had its sun. Ergo, correlation. Being the likely source of the lighting in both the Nightmare Realm and the Mirror World is nice, too.
Argosax stuff's probably fine; prolly wasn't even PIS at the time since it was meant to take place awhile after all the other events of the timeline, but for DMC5 the timeline got retconned so things got weird. Might still not be PIS as is; as Arkham, the Savior, and Abigail show, the DMC lore has an extensive track record of interrupted rituals messing with people's power, so we could say that (the recently awakened by an incomplete ritual) Argosax struggling to get going, even starting off in some odd abberation form, never got a chance to get to his full power onscreen in DMC2, even in Angel Form.
The Savior's dice dimension things? Eh. Maybe I'm missing something, but I'd rather stick to stuff that cannot as easily be waved off as non-narrative gameplay aspects or whatever. Especially considering how wack that would make the scaling. Drop it before the rest of your case looks bad by comparison.
Again, I'm getting stretched out thinner than DMC2's gameplay mechanics, so take anything I say with a grain of salt. I'll try to hang around, but don't let me hurt your feelings by going AFK.
Anyway, I'm probably for the upgrade (somewhat agnostic), so I guess I'll address some worthy objections (though I think the ball's in their court at the moment). We're using the Nightmare feat to say Mundus has a record of sizable creation feats, and inside the Nightmare that Mundus created is a void-thing meant to a an equivalent of a sun, ergo Tier 4-ish. Reasoning that supports this is that there is a Mirror World between the Human World and the Demon World (it mirrors the former) that has a similar void-thing in place of where the Human World side of Mallet Island had its sun. Ergo, correlation. Being the likely source of the lighting in both the Nightmare Realm and the Mirror World is nice, too.
Argosax stuff's probably fine; prolly wasn't even PIS at the time since it was meant to take place awhile after all the other events of the timeline, but for DMC5 the timeline got retconned so things got weird. Might still not be PIS as is; as Arkham, the Savior, and Abigail show, the DMC lore has an extensive track record of interrupted rituals messing with people's power, so we could say that (the recently awakened by an incomplete ritual) Argosax struggling to get going, even starting off in some odd abberation form, never got a chance to get to his full power onscreen in DMC2, even in Angel Form.
The Savior's dice dimension things? Eh. Maybe I'm missing something, but I'd rather stick to stuff that cannot as easily be waved off as non-narrative gameplay aspects or whatever. Especially considering how wack that would make the scaling. Drop it before the rest of your case looks bad by comparison.
Again, I'm getting stretched out thinner than DMC2's gameplay mechanics, so take anything I say with a grain of salt. I'll try to hang around, but don't let me hurt your feelings by going AFK.
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Based on everything I've heard, I agree with Dante defeating Argo to be PIS and base Dante pre 5 not scaling to whatever is accepted here for Mundus and such. I dunno what will happen with 5 Dante.
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And ys the Savior Dimensions are outliers without a shadow of a doubt.
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@Matt -- Yeah. Heck, forget outliers, I don't think the Savior stuff even counts as feats. Better to stick to more credible claims.
@Dragon -- Did my little bit in my earlier post sound reasonable? Just wanna make sure I'm not talking nonsense.
@Dragon -- Did my little bit in my earlier post sound reasonable? Just wanna make sure I'm not talking nonsense.
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I also think that the whole Savior thing is rather shaky. I'd rather leave it at that tbh.
Also, to explain myself on Dante vs Argosax: Dante needed his father's form in order to defeat Mundus, which the idea of Dante casually beating Argosax in base literally in the next game kinda contradicts. Arius also obtained an unknown amount of power due to the ritual being interrupted.
Also, to explain myself on Dante vs Argosax: Dante needed his father's form in order to defeat Mundus, which the idea of Dante casually beating Argosax in base literally in the next game kinda contradicts. Arius also obtained an unknown amount of power due to the ritual being interrupted.
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Well, y'know, I was just thinking that the nature of that ritual going south messed up the stats of the otherwise so-and-so powerful Argo, but what we should be asking first is if PIS, if there is any, would cast doubt on the Argo's feat in the first place.
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DMC 2 Dante casually beating Argosax, a being stronger than Sparda and Mundus, in base form, is pretty much contradicted by him getting beaten up by Urizen in DMC 5, who was empowered by the Qlipoth Tree, the same thing that gave Mundus his powers.
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We know Dante gets stronger each game and it is hinted he has surpassed sparda by 2
We see Dante stomp void mundus and again the history of dmc said argosax couldn't match Dante
There is nothing to hint that argosax has been weakened
We see Dante stomp void mundus and again the history of dmc said argosax couldn't match Dante
There is nothing to hint that argosax has been weakened
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Urizen didn't even consider the devil sword sparda as a threatMatthew Schroeder said:
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If you're referring to Dante "surpassing all those who came before him", that's pretty vague and doesn't really entail Dante surpassing Sparda. That's also retconned by DMC5, in which Dante has only possibly reached Sparda's power level.Sparda 20000000 said:
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Wasn't Nico the one saying Dante may have surpassed Sparda?Either way, Dante surpassed Mundus and Argosax by DMC2 if we're using DMC5 as our sourceRebubleUselet said:
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Follow Doctor Freeman said the following (I'm sending it due to his internet connection acting up):
"@Matt -- Argosax is not stronger than Mundus. Or full-power Sparda; after Sparda sealed Mundus, he lost the Sword of Sparda and some degree of power, then Argosax made a play for top dog, then (less powerful than he was beating Mundus) Sparda had to get help from the Rent-a Wiccans. They can only seal stuff, but their services are pretty ok; helped me when my attic got haunted by the ghost of my dead modded Wii.
@Sparda -- The ritual to summon Argosax was incomplete (remember that bit with the coin?), and Arius stole a portion of Argosax's power for himself, anyway. And Argosax is literally in a weird abomination form (DMC shorthand for a form that can't control its abilities: Arkham, nigh-dead Mundus, etc) when you first fight him. Granted, he turns into a more graceful form soon after, but it isn't unreasonable to suppose he ain't in tip-top shape, anyway. And the timeline got retconned, remember? DMC2 originally took place after 4; now it's between 1 and 4.
By the way, I think the most important thing to address is whatever's in DMC5. Also is the realm I'm least experienced in; I'm too busy worrying about my power bill, much less a PS4 to use the power."
"@Matt -- Argosax is not stronger than Mundus. Or full-power Sparda; after Sparda sealed Mundus, he lost the Sword of Sparda and some degree of power, then Argosax made a play for top dog, then (less powerful than he was beating Mundus) Sparda had to get help from the Rent-a Wiccans. They can only seal stuff, but their services are pretty ok; helped me when my attic got haunted by the ghost of my dead modded Wii.
@Sparda -- The ritual to summon Argosax was incomplete (remember that bit with the coin?), and Arius stole a portion of Argosax's power for himself, anyway. And Argosax is literally in a weird abomination form (DMC shorthand for a form that can't control its abilities: Arkham, nigh-dead Mundus, etc) when you first fight him. Granted, he turns into a more graceful form soon after, but it isn't unreasonable to suppose he ain't in tip-top shape, anyway. And the timeline got retconned, remember? DMC2 originally took place after 4; now it's between 1 and 4.
By the way, I think the most important thing to address is whatever's in DMC5. Also is the realm I'm least experienced in; I'm too busy worrying about my power bill, much less a PS4 to use the power."
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@reb and Matt
Urizen completely blow off the Sparda and didn't even consider the sword as a threat and we know Sparda's power has been sealed and when Dante tried to use it against him he got stomped
Void mundus is stated to be stronger than the original mundus and argosax the history of dmc said argosax couldn't match his strength
Urizen completely blow off the Sparda and didn't even consider the sword as a threat and we know Sparda's power has been sealed and when Dante tried to use it against him he got stomped
Void mundus is stated to be stronger than the original mundus and argosax the history of dmc said argosax couldn't match his strength
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@Reb
Seen it, it's unreasonable to use Nico's statement in DMC5 as evidence of Dante only being comparable to Sparda in DMC5 but deny that the Argosax that Dante fought is as strong as Mundus when that is outright stated in the History of DMC video, which is in 5, also Void Mundus exist.
Seen it, it's unreasonable to use Nico's statement in DMC5 as evidence of Dante only being comparable to Sparda in DMC5 but deny that the Argosax that Dante fought is as strong as Mundus when that is outright stated in the History of DMC video, which is in 5, also Void Mundus exist.
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Also nothing suggest that argosax was weakened from the incomplete ritual and arius taking an unknown amount of power
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Alright, I'll be silent for now.
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Mundus and Argosax are said to be equal, Dante beating Argosax in base shows he got stronger ever since the Mundus fight
Also about Saviour dimensions,how is that an outlier when Mundus and Argosax feats of the god tiers are above that
Also about Saviour dimensions,how is that an outlier when Mundus and Argosax feats of the god tiers are above that
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@BlackDarkness679
The Savior needs it's own discussion but as of right now it would be an outlier for Sanctus probably.I would drop it and focus on the stuff we know.
The Savior needs it's own discussion but as of right now it would be an outlier for Sanctus probably.I would drop it and focus on the stuff we know.
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Fair enough
Well it would be helpful to know about Urizen eating the fruit and its dialogue,as that could be creation feat
Well it would be helpful to know about Urizen eating the fruit and its dialogue,as that could be creation feat
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Ok, i shall explain some things.
Mundus was likely not a strong demon [Red/orange spider looking], so the fruit massively boosted him as said by Trish.
Urizen was born as the demonic half of Vergil and inherited all of his former physical power as V did not received that, so that Urizen is considerably stronger than Sid or Mundus before eating the fruit, so the fruit boosted him higher than Mundus.
There are three Argosax:
Prime Argosax: Not as strong as Mundus as Sparda had likely sealed away a considerable portion of his power and then required help to seal him.
Cocoon Argosax: Its appearance is not the same as Prime Argosax, but it may be comparable to it, though this form is just a cocoon made from previous monsters to allow him inside to transform.
Note: This the form that was causing most problems in 2 since things were beginning to warp when Dante talked to Lucia before going to Cocoon Argosax.
Despair Embodiment: Comparable to Mundus, who is equal to Prime Abigail.
Mundus was likely not a strong demon [Red/orange spider looking], so the fruit massively boosted him as said by Trish.
Urizen was born as the demonic half of Vergil and inherited all of his former physical power as V did not received that, so that Urizen is considerably stronger than Sid or Mundus before eating the fruit, so the fruit boosted him higher than Mundus.
There are three Argosax:
Prime Argosax: Not as strong as Mundus as Sparda had likely sealed away a considerable portion of his power and then required help to seal him.
Cocoon Argosax: Its appearance is not the same as Prime Argosax, but it may be comparable to it, though this form is just a cocoon made from previous monsters to allow him inside to transform.
Note: This the form that was causing most problems in 2 since things were beginning to warp when Dante talked to Lucia before going to Cocoon Argosax.
Despair Embodiment: Comparable to Mundus, who is equal to Prime Abigail.
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Incredible how people still thinks that Dante beating Argosax was PIS, since in the Novel he defeated a stronger version of Mundus without any trouble
Urizen also gained "a great deal of power" by taking Nero's Devil Bringer, The Qliphoth wasn't his only source of power, he also inherited Vergil's strengh, as Dark said
And it was confirmed that Urizen was already stronger than Mundus even before eating the fruit
Urizen also gained "a great deal of power" by taking Nero's Devil Bringer, The Qliphoth wasn't his only source of power, he also inherited Vergil's strengh, as Dark said
And it was confirmed that Urizen was already stronger than Mundus even before eating the fruit
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My internet's even more dependent on life support than the better one of my two remaining brain cells, so sorry if I abruptly vanish. Man, Wikia must use some kinda script that's slowing me down. Anyway, this: https://youtu.be/O5I3XV7rv1Y?t=2770
No offense, but haven't addressed what I said earlier regarding that game's plot. Maybe you forgot the game as a defense mechanism? Either way, you're gonna need a heck of a lotta evidence to say base Dante and Nero and all that crowd are 3-A. Maybe DMC5 has something to collaborate your claim, I dunno. I'm more afraid that DMC5 retcons stuff against any 3-A claim.
@Dark -- Thank you for actually using reasoning and trying to define terms! Although I would disagree that the Despair Embodiment we fight in the game is as strong as Mundus since the ritual to summon him was incomplete. Really, I should correct myself. Arius wasn't trying to summon Argosax; Arius was trying to siphon Argosax's power for himself. This implies that the Argosax we fight just isn't at his peak. He's capable of merging worlds or whatever it was you guys were saying, but that was before the ritual got messed up. Then he just barely manages to open a portal, and then we fight the weakened Argosax.
No offense, but haven't addressed what I said earlier regarding that game's plot. Maybe you forgot the game as a defense mechanism? Either way, you're gonna need a heck of a lotta evidence to say base Dante and Nero and all that crowd are 3-A. Maybe DMC5 has something to collaborate your claim, I dunno. I'm more afraid that DMC5 retcons stuff against any 3-A claim.
@Dark -- Thank you for actually using reasoning and trying to define terms! Although I would disagree that the Despair Embodiment we fight in the game is as strong as Mundus since the ritual to summon him was incomplete. Really, I should correct myself. Arius wasn't trying to summon Argosax; Arius was trying to siphon Argosax's power for himself. This implies that the Argosax we fight just isn't at his peak. He's capable of merging worlds or whatever it was you guys were saying, but that was before the ritual got messed up. Then he just barely manages to open a portal, and then we fight the weakened Argosax.
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Although I would disagree that the Despair Embodiment we fight in the game is as strong as Mundus since the ritual to summon him was incomplete
Hmm, the ritual was to open the portal to release Argosax, right ?
Also, this is from DMC2 files:
"After becoming possessed by the essence of Argosax, Arius' size and strength were increased. All of his previous abilities got amplified and he himself gained new powers."
He never "drained" Argosax's powers, he was just possessed by him
Hmm, the ritual was to open the portal to release Argosax, right ?
Also, this is from DMC2 files:
"After becoming possessed by the essence of Argosax, Arius' size and strength were increased. All of his previous abilities got amplified and he himself gained new powers."
He never "drained" Argosax's powers, he was just possessed by him
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@Follow Doctor Freeman
Doesn't matter all the stuff you said has been retconned or interpreted wrong, this ( TL of Japanese versio : ÒâáÒâ│ÒâëÒéÑÒé╣Òü¿ÕÉîþ¡ëÒü«ÕèøÒéƵîüÒüñÚ¡öþòîÒü«ÞªçþÄï (Demon King with power equal to Mundus) is in DMC5 and Dante stomped Void Mundus who is stronger than regular Mundus.
Doesn't matter all the stuff you said has been retconned or interpreted wrong, this ( TL of Japanese versio : ÒâáÒâ│ÒâëÒéÑÒé╣Òü¿ÕÉîþ¡ëÒü«ÕèøÒéƵîüÒüñÚ¡öþòîÒü«ÞªçþÄï (Demon King with power equal to Mundus) is in DMC5 and Dante stomped Void Mundus who is stronger than regular Mundus.
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People thinks that Argosax was nerfed in his fight against Dante, but:
- We have statements that even demons rivaling Mundus can't defeat Dante by DMC2
- Arius never drained Argosax's powers, he was just possessed by him
- The ritual was to open a portal to release Argosax and...even incomplete it was opened and Dante just fights him inside de Demon World, nothing points to something nerfing him
- We have statements that even demons rivaling Mundus can't defeat Dante by DMC2
- Arius never drained Argosax's powers, he was just possessed by him
- The ritual was to open a portal to release Argosax and...even incomplete it was opened and Dante just fights him inside de Demon World, nothing points to something nerfing him
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For the record, I'm trying to go with an interpretation of DMC2 that fits with stuff further down the road. But it seems you guys are on the ball as far as DMC5 implications of earlier events are concerned.
Oh, right, the novel, too, good point. Seems as if my "Argosax was weakened" cases makes sense only back when DMC2 was at the end of the timeline, because the time gap would have given Dante enough time to get that strong, and then we wouldn't have to use an interpretation of DMC2 stuff that makes sense for DMC4 and DMC5 stuff, but this DMC5 timeline retcon really thorws a wrench into the works of everything. Now we have to make one of the following cases:
1.) Everyone is 3-A because the Argosax Dante fought in DMC2 was 3-A.
2.) Only Sparda Dante is 3-A, and defeating certain guys in that territory were either PIS or in weakened states.
3.) No one is 3-A bc my head hurts and... the normal tiers don't seem 3-A?
Maybe this is turning into an all-or-nothing scenario. Thoughts?
Oh, right, the novel, too, good point. Seems as if my "Argosax was weakened" cases makes sense only back when DMC2 was at the end of the timeline, because the time gap would have given Dante enough time to get that strong, and then we wouldn't have to use an interpretation of DMC2 stuff that makes sense for DMC4 and DMC5 stuff, but this DMC5 timeline retcon really thorws a wrench into the works of everything. Now we have to make one of the following cases:
1.) Everyone is 3-A because the Argosax Dante fought in DMC2 was 3-A.
2.) Only Sparda Dante is 3-A, and defeating certain guys in that territory were either PIS or in weakened states.
3.) No one is 3-A bc my head hurts and... the normal tiers don't seem 3-A?
Maybe this is turning into an all-or-nothing scenario. Thoughts?
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