Another Reid downgrade

[Jozaysmith?]

Being stated to cut concepts & killing sound & light is already rated Type 3 on his page.

(Although, just a single chapter prior, another character on Reid's level kills the concept of sound, creating a temporary soundless phenomenon)


Reid has Type 2 for his swordsmanship manifesting the Notion of the "Sword"- defined as "That which is brought forth for the purpose of slashing an object down"- through any object he holds, a holy sword, a rusty blade, an iron pipe, or even a wooden chopstick, it has the concept of the "Sword" manifested through it, which slashes down all objects in the world, bisecting the world itself.

All this most likely still qualifies for type 2 conceptual manip

 

[LordGinSama]

What? No, it explicitly was concluded, which even included changing what was on the standards too, including this relevant bit for the purposes of this thread, so it'd totally matter here, standards being established years ago doesn't make them any less irrelevant to their current usage.

My guy this literally isn't ANYWHERE within the conceptual manipulation page. DT's suggestion / implementation was removed from the page year ago according to the page's history.

In any case we'd need mod input for CRT applications per site policy, but to dismiss precedents accepted by high ranking staff that have been applied since then is just inappropiate to say the least.

Oh stop your complaining Bob. It was applied then removed years ago at this point. Your reference isn't anywhere on the conceptual manipulation page.

As said off-site, I'd advocate for a discussion rule on this matter as this keeps being proposed with the same sort of argument and debunk multiple times.

We are not going to create a discussion rule for something that hasn't been debunked.

@Phoenks

We don't assume universal properties are always universal concepts, it highly depends on the context. Without that context, we can't assume it's talking about the universal conceptions of Light or Sound. There's an issue in your understanding of what Type 3 Concepts actually are. Type 3 Concepts aren't just personal concepts, things which are specifically tied to one's existence. Type 3 Concepts are "lesser fundamental concepts." They're concepts that govern over a limited extent of a property, it's just that personal concepts are the most prevalent forms of Type 3 Concepts.

Unless we have evidence of the concepts in question being talked about as the universal properties of Light or Sound, we'd just assume it's discussing a limited extent of those properties. So it would just be Type 3 Conceptual Manipulation as it doesn't satisfy our requirements for Type 2.

^ This is the current standard for Type 2 CM.

 

[LordGinSama]

Reid has Type 2 for his swordsmanship manifesting the Notion of the "Sword"- defined as "That which is brought forth for the purpose of slashing an object down"- through any object he holds, a holy sword, a rusty blade, an iron pipe, or even a wooden chopstick, it has the concept of the "Sword" manifested through it, which slashes down all objects in the world, bisecting the world itself.

Don't believe The concept of swordsmanship is a Type 2 construction. "Slashing down all objects in the world via cutting the concepts." doesn't quite sound like Type 2 either. As The concept of a sword isn't something that rules over reality.


Will wait for further explanation.

 

[Worthless]

Being stated to cut concepts & killing sound & light is already rated Type 3 on his page.

(Although, just a single chapter prior, another character on Reid's level kills the concept of sound, creating a temporary soundless phenomenon)


Reid has Type 2 for his swordsmanship manifesting the Notion of the "Sword"- defined as "That which is brought forth for the purpose of slashing an object down"- through any object he holds, a holy sword, a rusty blade, an iron pipe, or even a wooden chopstick, it has the concept of the "Sword" manifested through it, which slashes down all objects in the world, bisecting the world itself.

I agree with this unless "type 2" exclusively refers only to a universal scale and not a global one.

 

[LordGinSama]

Also Type 2 still needs direct evidence that everything in reality that's linked to said concept being effected. At the end of the day, no matter what the counter argument is unless Reid is effecting everything linked to the object in question then its type 3 CM.

 

[Loyd]

Yeah "concept of the sword" seems dubious which is used to affect type 3

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Don't believe The concept of swordsmanship is a Type 2 construction. "Slashing down all objects in the world via cutting the concepts." doesn't quite sound like Type 2 either. As The concept of a sword isn't something that rules over reality.


Will wait for further explanation.

The statement about slashing down all objects in the world seems taken out of context. Objects are normally governed by type 3 concepts. Reid slashing and destroying individual objects shouldn't be considered type 2 just because it's mentioned that he can slash all objects in the world.

Going around and destroying one by one objects isn't nowhere type 2.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I think what they mean is that they use the type 2 concept of "sword" to slash everything down in the world

 

[LordGinSama]

I think what they mean is that they use the type 2 concept of "sword" to slash everything down in the world

Not seeing how a sword = Type 2 CM. Slashing down objects in the world isn't Type 2 CM either unless they effect the world directly such as Sukuna's World Cutter which has the statement of cutting the world, infinity and Existence itself.

 

[Zabazab]

My guy this literally isn't ANYWHERE within the conceptual manipulation page. DT's suggestion / implementation was removed from the page year ago according to the page's history.

DT's implementation was not removed, the page is still edited to specify that universal scale/AOE is not necessary.

Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence.

"Area of influence" refers to the range.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Neutral FRA

 

[LordGinSama]

DT's implementation was not removed, the page is still edited to specify that universal scale/AOE is not necessary.

Conceptual Manipulation is the ability to manipulate, create, and/or destroy abstract concepts. This ability has a variety of applications, ranging from not combat-applicable to incredibly dominating. Conceptual Manipulation involves the manipulation of concepts, and not the universe directly. However, through this power, one can change the universe's fundamental principles on the highest level.

Each concept is linked with its respective "object". In this way, altering the concept will change every object linked to it in the same way the concept itself was changed.
Once again as I've been saying this isn't Type 2 for the sole reason that the concept and everything linked said concept was never effected on a type 2 level. To be perfectly succinct here you guys are reaching massively trying to prove Type 2 when it goes against our standards.

"Area of influence" refers to the range.

Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a by-product of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.


How many times are we gonna ignore the fact that for CM Type 2 you'd need to effect every object of the concept.

 

[Bobsican]

My guy this literally isn't ANYWHERE within the conceptual manipulation page. DT's suggestion / implementation was removed from the page year ago according to the page's history.


Oh stop your complaining Bob. It was applied then removed years ago at this point. Your reference isn't anywhere on the conceptual manipulation page.

Uh... the page has barely changed since then, so the intent hasn't changed either, especially looking at the history page and the links provided for the justifications of the changes since then, if anything this is just implying the page should be even more explicit on this standard, not this standard not being the case.

We are not going to create a discussion rule for something that hasn't been debunked.

If this gets debunked once again a case can be made, but that's besides the current point.

 

[LordGinSama]

Uh... the page has barely changed since then, so the intent hasn't changed either, especially looking at the history page and the links provided for the justifications of the changes since then, if anything this is just implying the page should be even more explicit on this standard, not this standard not being the case.

Bud read above. No matter what flawed argument you make, does not debunk the fact that all objects linked to said concept needs to be effected to qualify for Type 2 CM.

Conceptual Manipulation is the ability to manipulate, create, and/or destroy abstract concepts. This ability has a variety of applications, ranging from not combat-applicable to incredibly dominating. Conceptual Manipulation involves the manipulation of concepts, and not the universe directly. However, through this power, one can change the universe's fundamental principles on the highest level.

Each concept is linked with its respective "object". In this way, altering the concept will change every object linked to it in the same way the concept itself was changed.
Once again as I've been saying this isn't Type 2 for the sole reason that the concept and everything linked said concept was never effected on a type 2 level. To be perfectly succinct here you guys are reaching massively trying to prove Type 2 when it goes against our standards.

Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a by-product of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.

From the page directly. If you disagree then you quite literally need to make a CRT to change the definition of Type 2 here.

If this gets debunked once again a case can be made, but that's besides the current point.

No not really. Discussion Rules are meant to stop toxic repetitive discussions that don't hold any significant evidence. There's only been 2 threads about this as far as I'm aware, and none of them have been "debunked."


This is a massive overreaction from you, its quite dramatic of a response. We aren't going to implement a whole ass discussion rule just because you don't want arguments Bob.

 

[Zabazab]

Each concept is linked with its respective "object". In this way, altering the concept will change every object linked to it in the same way the concept itself was changed.
These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself.
How many times are we gonna ignore the fact that for CM Type 2 you'd need to effect every object of the concept.

This is true within the area of influence.

Whether that is across the multiverse, or within a 10 metre radius, does not matter.

 

[LordGinSama]

This is true within the area of influence.

Type 2 CM is the influence that governs all of reality.

Whether that is across the multiverse, or within a 10 metre radius, does not matter.

It absolutely does as me and Deceived have explained. Blud If that were the case then Type 2 and 3 would be the same ability. These would be concepts that change all objects linked to said concept.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Call me crazy but isnt there a literal statement of Reid/Reinhard always slashing the world each time they swing their sword which is pretty similar to what Sukuna's description said

 

[Bobsican]

Type 2 CM is the influence that governs all of reality.

Again, it's not, gotta go in depth on the next part.

It absolutely does as me and Deceived have explained. Blud If that were the case then Type 2 and 3 would be the same ability. These would be concepts that change all objects linked to said concept.

The difference of type 2 and type 3 isn't range, but rather type 3 merely being about very vague cases with next to no context/detail, such as characters merely bringing up the usage of a concept and whatever, while for type 2 it's clear that the concepts in question are of an abstract and not mundanely informational (mental thoughts, written details) sort that existencially define the stuff that is bound to them, and then the difference between type 2 and 1 is whether the concepts in question prexisted the things that are bound to them (type 1) or not (type 2).

Now if this'd just fall as type 3 out of little context is beyond me, I'm just clarifying as it seems there's misconceptions on the current definitions of each type of CM.

 

[LordGinSama]

Again, it's not, gotta go in depth on the next part.

I'm not gonna sit here going back and forth with another blue name that quite frankly is wrong here. After this reply I'll have some staff comment here.

The difference of type 2 and type 3 isn't range

According to you, sure. But According to the page you'd be wrong in that aspect.

but rather type 3 merely being about very vague cases with next to no context/detail, such as characters merely bringing up the usage of a concept and whatever, while for type 2 it's clear that the concepts in question are of an abstract and not mundanely informational (mental thoughts, written details) sort that existencially define the stuff that is bound to them, and then the difference between type 2 and 1 is whether the concepts in question prexisted the things that are bound to them (type 1) or not (type 2).

Space-Time concepts are usually Type 3 concepts so again your argument holds no weight here. Type 3 is simply lesser Fundamental Concepts that don't cover the scope of concepts that govern reality. All forms of Conceptual manipulation are abstraction but to varying degrees.


Bob you can't sit here and say that Type 3 concepts are not abstraction, thats the point of concept manipulation as a whole. Type 3 can cover things such as gravity (Shiki and Ziggy from Eden's Zero.), death (Mard Geer from Fairy Tail.), etc. You'd need to prove that these concepts are Type 2 in nature.

Now if this'd just fall as type 3 out of little context is beyond me, I'm just clarifying as it seems there's misconceptions on the current definitions of each type of CM.

This is Type 3 CM not type 2.

 

[Bobsican]

I'm not gonna sit here going back and forth with another blue name that quite frankly is wrong here. After this reply I'll have some staff comment here.

Then just ignore me and let the staff talk, ignoring the points themselves provided just because of the given hierarchical position of someone is a fallacy to say the least, even if I played along with this, I'm listed as a knowledgeable member for concept stuff, and not anyone can get in that list.

According to you, sure. But According to the page you'd be wrong in that aspect.

(citation needed)

I already sourced the page being explicitly changed for the contrary and that being the standard since then, you're the one stating your points as if they were facts without even backing them up or anything.

Space-Time concepts are usually Type 3 concepts so again your argument holds no weight here. Type 3 is simply lesser Fundamental Concepts that don't cover the scope of concepts that govern reality. All forms of Conceptual manipulation are abstraction but to varying degrees.

Bob you can't sit here and say that Type 3 concepts are not abstraction, thats the point of concept manipulation as a whole. Type 3 can cover things such as gravity (Shiki and Ziggy from Eden's Zero.), death (Mard Geer from Fairy Tail.), etc. You'd need to prove that these concepts are Type 2 in nature.

Never said they were not abstractions, but rather relevant ones, note how the CM page notes how type 3 grants absolutely nothing on its own (in the sense of not making abilities that use it harder to deal with) and is basically more of a label to explain how the abilities involved to it work. For a reason it's not even usable for High-Godly by default compared to the other types.

This is Type 3 CM not type 2.

Again, this is incorrect, bring up sources on such precedents being the case (CRTs included) or else this argument holds no weight, I can even bring up a example of type 2s/1s on the site without universal range by default like Kingdom Hearts.

 

[LordGinSama]

Then just ignore me and let the staff talk, ignoring the points themselves provided just because of the given hierarchical position of someone is a fallacy to say the least.

Not really a fallacy whenever staff opinion has always been the priority for the most part.

(citation needed)

I already sourced the page being explicitly changed for the contrary and that being the standard since then, you're the one stating your points as if they were facts without even backing them up or anything.

You obviously aren't reading my argument nor the literal conceptual page you keep "sourcing."

I've sourced the same shit and copied and pasted them here. As per literal definition of Type 2 you'd be incorrect here.

Never said they were not abstractions, but rather relevant ones, note how the CM page notes how type 3 grants absolutely nothing on its own (in the sense of not making abilities that use it harder to deal with) and is basically more of a label to explain how the abilities involved to it work. For a reason it's not even usable for High-Godly by default compared to the other types.

First of all, that's wrong. Plently of characters have High-Godly based on a Type 3 concept. Context matters a lot here as most verses treat varying concepts differently. Secondly the CM page only states you can resist Type 3 if you resist very similar abilities, not that CM Type 3 is useless.

Again, this is incorrect

You have yet to prove how its incorrect. I'm using ths standards that me and Deceived have verbatim posted here which was agreed upon by 2 staff members within the first page of this thread.

bring up sources on such precedents being the case (CRTs included) or else this argument holds no weight.

Sure thing.

I can even bring up a example of type 2s/1s on the site without universal range by default like Kingdom Hearts.

Knew you were going to bring up Kingdom Hearts since you stan it. Major issue is that most of the notable characters have tier1 range so that's irrelevant and untrue. Your comparing a tier 1 verse with sufficient range to a regular plain ass verse that lacks the same type of supportive evidence. Also blud you literally linked me a thread that's 2 years old and hasn't even been closed yet.


Bob you quite literally made a CRT to give them interdimensional ~ Multiversal+ range. This is a massive false comparison if I've ever seen one.

 

[Zabazab]

You obviously aren't reading my argument nor the literal conceptual page you keep "sourcing."

Here, DT says he edited the page such that CM 1&2 no longer require Universal scope/AOE, this edit specifies that Type 2 concepts govern reality within their area of influence. These edits have not been removed since. The current standard is that range does not matter. The range can be as little as 10 metres as long as said concept governs reality within those 10 metres.

You just keep skipping over the sentence "within their area of influence". That area of influence does not need to be the entire universe.

 

[Bobsican]

Not really a fallacy whenever staff opinion has always been the priority for the most part.

Not my point, my point is that you seem to try to dismiss any argument from a blue name against you with "not a mod, so I have no reason to defend my claims", which just renders your claims weaker to say the least.

You obviously aren't reading my argument nor the literal conceptual page you keep "sourcing."

I bothered reading the entire thread and its comments, please link particular posts you deem relevant if you are so sure of this so I can bother directly replying to them if you are so confident.

First of all, that's wrong. Plently of characters have High-Godly based on a Type 3 concept. Context matters a lot here as most verses treat varying concepts differently. Secondly the CM page only states you can resist Type 3 if you resist very similar abilities, not that CM Type 3 is useless.

Well, then they probably should lose High-Godly unless an exceptional case was made for them, in which case please link the respective CRT for such additions (not just the acceptation of the CM itself).

Type 3 explicitly grants nothing on its own, a fireball "enhanced" with type 3 CM is still practically no different from a normal fireball by default.

3. Lesser Fundamental Concepts: Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon. Case-by-case specifications and explanations are necessary for such concepts and examples, and they are likely not going to meet the same standards for abilities such as High-Godly regeneration that other concepts may. Conceptual manipulation of this type can be resisted by those who resist sufficiently similar abilities, even if the exact mechanics may differ.

You have yet to prove how its incorrect. I'm using ths standards that me and Deceived have verbatim posted here which was agreed upon by 2 staff members within the first page of this thread.

Only a single one from @DarkDragonMedeus, @Phoenks has no mod right votes as he doesn't mod VSBW, nor is even a thread mod either, so you'd need more staff input regardless, also note that DDM only agreed with the OP, he's yet to comment on further developments on the topic made in the comments, we're looking for accuracy, not merely getting stuff passed or not, after all.

Speaking of which...

It was accepted and applied. The mods did in fact agree to it, none of them rejected it so I'm not sure what your even talking about.

It was not, that was the only mod comment with voting rights (and to neutral at best, no less), nothing from that thread should have been applied with that poor consensus.

@Deceived3596 as of now has only posted this argument, which has no scans and is not even related to my argument (I'm not proposing to assume the CM involved here has universal range), please don't strawman me. Before a potential nitpick, note that I'm not conceeding the argument either, as my point is that non-universal range can qualify for type 2 or above.

Anyways, let's recap.

Your argument against my point is that this revision that made the standard that CM in general does not require universal range to qualify, is unusable out of you thinking it's irrelevant out of apparently thinking it was never concluded and it being 2 years old, to which I replied that not being the case as it was explicitly concluded and the standard relevant here hasn't changed since then, then you went on to just nitpick the current wording over what's really intended, and from there you and me have been going back and forth reiterating about the same points.

At which point, at best, playind devil's advocate with you, just means the current description of CM should be updated to reflect better the intended standards over trying to abide to an outdated idea long disapproved by the staff.

Sure thing.

Okay, looked around and it seems that's just wrong too, two negatives don't make a right, limiting something to type 3 only out of range is wrong as veheremently said before.

Knew you were going to bring up Kingdom Hearts since you stan it. Major issue is that most of the notable characters have tier1 range so that's irrelevant and untrue. Your comparing a tier 1 verse with sufficient range to a regular plain ass verse that lacks the same type of supportive evidence. Also blud you literally linked me a thread that's 2 years old and hasn't even been closed yet.


Bob you quite literally made a CRT to give them interdimensional ~ Multiversal+ range. This is a massive false comparison if I've ever seen one.

The acceptation of CM for KH was done independently of the range, in fact it was proposed way after, the only thing in the series with tier 2 range (not interdimensional) were the X-Blade, true KH and Sora's Heartless, yet we're more than fine on giving type 1 to all Keyblade users and whatever.

Overall it really seems quite a lot of strawmanning, nitpicking and cherrypicking is around here, chances are this will be replied with even more of such, so I'd appreciate if the other users bother sharing this post and politely comment what they think on the matter.

 

[LordGinSama]

Within their influence once again doesn't disprove what I said. Type 2 requires the manipulation of concepts that directly effect all objects linked to it as I've provided the links to.


I don't mean "universal" as in a measurable distance in space, I mean "universal" as in the collective amount of a select property.


Let me quote Deceived. "He's affecting both concepts, just not the universal variety of those concepts, he's only affecting the personal concepts of life and death, that's why when he activates the ability it doesn't remove everyone's conception of life and death, causing them to be erased."



@DontTalkDT input would be appreciated.

 

[Bobsican]

Linked to them within their area of influence, we don't default them to universal range, so them not affecting all that'd logically be bound to such in the universe is not an anti-feat.

Now if other things that should be locally affected by being within range aren't affected that's another deal entirely and I'd become neutral in that case, more staff input would be required regardless.

Reminder that blue names can't ping anyone, you'd have to actually ask him to come here.

 

[LordGinSama]

Not my point, my point is that you seem to try to dismiss any argument from a blue name against you with "not a mod, so I have no reason to defend my claims", which just renders your claims weaker to say the least.

I've been defending my claims the whole thread, I find it funny that you complain about strawmaning but yet here you are doing exactly that. I never said that I wouldn't defend my stance just because you're a blue name, I said I don't trust in the legitimacy of a blue names words in this certain context.


Do me a solid and don't twist things up to make it seem like I said something else.

I bothered reading the entire thread and its comments, please link particular posts you deem relevant if you are so sure of this so I can bother directly replying to them if you are so confident.

One issue, I'm not talking about a thread I'm talking about what's on the conceptual manipulation page for type 2. Don't try to manipulate me into starting a separate debate with you.

I've sourced the same shit and copied and pasted them here. As per literal definition of Type 2 you'd be incorrect here.

As have I, to which you've ignored.

Well, then they probably should lose High-Godly unless an exceptional case was made for them, in which case please link the respective CRT for such additions (not just the acceptation of the CM itself).

In all honesty your just stonewalling at this point by demanding I post a bunch of characters that have nothing to do with this thread. Mate your on about High-Godly which has nothing to so with this thread and its purpose.

Type 3 explicitly grants nothing on its own, a fireball "enhanced" with type 3 CM is still practically no different from a normal fireball by default.

It's never stated nor implied that Type 3 grants nothing on it's own. A conceptual ball of fire, even if it's Type 3 would still be more potent than a regular flamethrower. It's still an abstraction at the end of the day.

Only a single one from @DarkDragonMedeus, @Phoenks has no mod right votes as he doesn't mod VSBW, nor is even a thread mod either, so you'd need more staff input regardless, also note that DDM only agreed with the OP, he's yet to comment on further developments on the topic made in the comments, we're looking for accuracy, not merely getting stuff passed or not, after all.

I'd consider Ant's liking of DDM's comment as him agreeing with the thread but if you'd like we could get further input from them both.

Speaking of which...



It was not, that was the only mod comment with voting rights (and to neutral at best, no less), nothing from that thread should have been applied with that poor consensus.

The vast majority agreed with it, once again Zaba said he'd apply it but never did due to forgetting.

@Deceived3596 as of now has only posted this argument, which has no scans and is not even related to my argument (I'm not proposing to assume the CM involved here has universal range), please don't strawman me.

Deceived is a very knowledgeable user regarding esoteric abilities so I'll trust his words, especially since they reflect what's actually on the page. Secondly who's strawmaning you? I don't think you know what that term means since I never once said I'm not refuting different arguments randomly, your the one bringing different arguments into this debate. Drop the accusations of strawmaning because that never happened here.

Before a potential nitpick, note that I'm not conceeding the argument either, as my point is that non-universal range can qualify for type 2 or above.

And I'm disagreeing with your points for the reasons I've given above.

Anyways, let's recap.

Your argument against my point is that this revision that made the standard that CM in general does not require universal range to qualify, is unusable out of you thinking it's irrelevant out of apparently thinking it was never concluded and it being 2 years old, to which I replied that not being the case as it was explicitly concluded and the standard relevant here hasn't changed since then, then you went on to just nitpick the current wording over what's really intended, and from there you and me have been going back and forth reiterating about the same points.

For the last time Bob, what you are sourcing is not the standard. That's just a general explanation of the ability, the finer explanations are found within the actual definitions of the subsets, and with the wording it contradicts what you've been using as a source.

At which point, at best, playind devil's advocate with you, just means the current description of CM should be updated to reflect better the intended standards over trying to abide to an outdated idea long disapproved by the staff.

If the CM page needs to be updated to reflect that only strengthens my point here. Right now, as of this moment with the current description of the conceptual manipulation page doesn't reflect on what you've been saying.

If you wanna update it then I'll gladly concede but as it stands now this is simply incorrect.

Okay, looked around and it seems that's just wrong too, two negatives don't make a right, limiting something to type 3 only out of range is wrong as veheremently said before.

Something isn't wrong simply because you think it's wrong. But do me a favor and do explain how Deceived was wrong in that thread.

The acceptation of CM for KH was done independently of the range, in fact it was proposed way after, the only thing in the series with tier 2 range (not interdimensional) were the X-Blade, true KH and Sora's Heartless, yet we're more than fine on giving type 1 to all Keyblade users and whatever.

And all Keyblade users have sufficient range along with Type 1 CM by default having that type of scope.

Overall it really seems quite a lot of strawmanning, nitpicking and cherrypicking is around here, chances are this will be replied with even more of such, so I'd appreciate if the other users bother sharing this post and politely comment what they think on the matter.

I share the same sentiment about your replies so far. But I'll agree that having more input here would be the best option.

 

[Planck69]

I've read the first dozen posts and the latest one so I may be missing some context. But speaking generally;

An act of Concept Manipulation doesn't need to be of universal range to qualify for Type 2 or even 1. The core of it is that the concept itself being manipulated or effected is universal in scope (as well as independent in the case of Type 1).

Someone wielding or negating the concept of light itself or sound or space in a football field sized area still has Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation. The concept is what has to be general and prove its range.

Whether or not that's what Reid does, I'll have to keep reading the thread better but yeah, I'm not that sure on the downgrade itself.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

The core of it is that the concept itself being manipulated or effected is universal in scope (as well as independent in the case of Type 1).

I don't know if this is so, because DT says that even space-time concepts are by default type 3 and not type 2, without further contexts. And the very concept of space-time would be "type 2" going along your line.

 

[Planck69]

I don't know if this is so, because DT says that even space-time concepts are by default type 3 and not type 2, without further contexts. And the very concept of space-time would be "type 2" going along your line.

What does that have to do with what I've said? Setting aside the fact that the concept of all of space is more often universal than otherwise, my point generally stands for other concepts as well. A characters personal range when using concept manipulation isn't in itself a cap on the type of concepts he can affect.

 

[Zabazab]

Putting aside the range arguments which seem to have comprised most of the thread, I'd like to explain what Reid's CM actually does.

First, killing the concept of light. This ability was not elaborated on.

Second, killing the concept of sound. While this ability was not elaborated on when Reid used it, another character on Reid's level also killed the concept of sound just a single chapter prior, creating what was described as a peaceful soundless phenomenon, despite it being an intense life-or-death situation.

Lastly and most importantly, manifesting the concept of the sword. This ability allows Reid, through his unworldly swordsmanship, to bring forth the very notion of the "Sword" through any object he wields. The "Sword" in this case being described by the source material as "That which is brought forth for the purpose of slashing down objects". Whether Reid uses a real sword, a pipe, or just a regular wooden chopstick does not matter, as the concept of "slashing down objects" is manifested through it. It is stated that this sword-flash slashes down everything in it's path, be it the atmosphere, space itself, and concepts, and is also stated to both fissure the world as well as bisect the world itself.

 

[Phoenks]

Huh. That's neat. So I was right?

If the standard is that the concept itself needs to be universal, rather than the range that said person can affect, then Reid would qualify for Type 2 pretty easily in that case.

Though, clearly, we need to update the Conceptual Manipulation page to make this more clear for users, because as seen on this thread it's very unclear.

 

[Deceived3596]

The concepts of Light or Sound aren't inherently universal, @DontTalkDT has already touched upon this before. Until we have evidence that Reid is affecting the universal conceptions of Light and Sound (universal as in the complete governance over a select property across reality, not universal in the sense of spatial distance. So it's entirely possible for one to have Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation without needing universal spatial range since it isn't dependent on that), we can't assume that he is.

 

[Zabazab]

Snip

He says:

Q: We would default the concept of space to Type 3?
DT: If it has absolutely no explanation or showings to it then yes.

This would be the case for Reid's manipulation of the concept of light (the reason he has Types 2 AND 3 listed), but would not apply to the concepts of sound and the "Sword", due to them posessing explanations and/or showings, as I stated above.

 

[Deceived3596]

This would be the case for Reid's manipulation of the concept of light (the reason he has Types 2 AND 3 listed), but would not apply to the concepts of sound and the "Sword", due to them posessing explanations and/or showings, as I stated above.

I don't agree with your assessment for Sound being a Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation showing for Reid, nothing about it implies Reid is manipulating the universal conception of Sound. It just shows he can manipulate sound around him to a limited, and unexplained extent. This falls more under Type 3 instead of Type 2 because of this reason (Please don't assume when I say universal I'm talking about distance, I was previously misunderstood before even though I explained myself pretty clearly, but I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstood again)

I can possibly see an argument for his manipulation of the Concept of "Sword." But I would require some further time thinking about it since I just woke up.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@DontTalkDT input would be appreciated.

@DontTalkDT

 

[DontTalkDT]

Where da scans at?

 

[Fezzih_007]

Where da scans at?

(Type 2; Stated to be able to cut concepts, and killed the concepts of sound and light. Reid's swordsmanship manifests the very notion of the "Sword" itself[6] which slashes down all objects in the world)

Zabazab can get better scan, probally;

 

[Zabazab]

Where da scans at?

Here:

Killing the very concept of sound and light, Reid’s flash cleaved space.

He would affirm. Should it be the stipulated sword or the chopsticks, regardless, come what may in that flash’s path, it would be slashed down.

For that was, the very manifestation of the notion of the 『Sword』.

The 『Sword』 was that which was brought forth for the purpose of slashing objects down.

And Sword Moves, was the term denoting the techniques for slashing objects down with that sword.

Henceforth, the flash which slashed down all objects in the world, was the culmination, and the long-cherished original desire, of the 『Sword』 and of the 『Sword Moves』.

Those slashed by it, would not forget the truth of having been slashed down for eternity.

Thus, the scar Julius Juukulius sustained beneath his left eye, shall not fade away for eternity.

That was the indemnification for having dodged the Sword Saint’s flash, from a distance near enough to graze past.

Then, a blow from one of his chopsticks dropped down towards his head――

Reid: “Get pulverised, ya prick.”

With a vertical flash, his slash, accompanied by a shockwave, cut through atmosphere, space, and concepts.

His sword slash was so overwhelming that ways to even express it no longer came to their minds. It was so beautiful, that even though his weapon had been a chopstick, one could not help but be captivated by it, even if they were an amateur at swordplay―― It was the pinnacle of swordplay, the very culmination of it, that which was what was being manifested there.

Julius: “――――”

A slash so beautiful, that one would probably die from just admiring it.

Julius leapt aside, dodging it, but the hem of his cloak did not make it in time and was swallowed by Reid’s blade, evaporating. A vertical groove was left carved into the Second Floor of the Watchtower, which was made of unknown materials, as if it were all a jape.

Within all of this, Reid using a weapon aside from chopsticks―― though referring to chopsticks as a weapon had exceeding room for doubt, anyhow, him swinging something aside from chopsticks, this would be the first.

And in these moments, with the pinnacle of the sword, the Sword Saint having wholly gripped the sword, he thought.

Julius: “The power of your sword has not changed, compared to the time you were using chopsticks…!”

Reid: “Liiike I just said, damnit. The reason I’m strong ain’t ‘cause I swing the sword. The only reason I’m strong, is just ‘cause I’m strong.”

Against Julius, who had gambled and unveiled the secret ritual, Reid Astrea’s actions were terribly simple.

To swing down the sword he had swung up, a deed of sword strikes likely repeated the most in this world―― it obliquely bisected the world, becoming a light which wrecked all in its path to ruin.

Neither a special magic, nor a special move.

With a mere swing of the sword, the world was scorched by light. Impossible to understand.

With a swing of the sword, the world fissured.

That, was the special move of the Sword Saint which transpired when Reinhard swung the sword as well.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I would say Type 3 at a glance.
To clarify something: Yes, Type 2 concepts do not have to be universal in range. In fact, even type 1 don't have to. They could apply only to a small pocket dimension. Or, theoretically, someone with concept manipulation could apply a Type 2/1 concept to a limited area in space.
However, if something affects a concept and it only affects things 3m around them for no reason, that certainly sounds more like a personal concept than one that just happened to govern that small bubble of reality.

What lends further to that interpretation is that the area in question probably didn't remain without sound and light (correct me if I'm wrong there). I doubt the sword slash would have a function to restore those concepts after it's done either. For a personal concept, it's plausible for light and sound to be restored on their own (because different sounds and different light can just enter the area), but for Type 2 or 1 I would expect some kind of concept power to be needed to get them back.

 

[Phoenks]

To summarize Reid's case, he pretty much uses the concept of "Sword" to slash any object in the universe. Since, sword here just refers to the notion of a thing cleaving through another thing - he enforces that onto reality. He can slash through anything, from flesh to concepts like "sound" and "light" themselves. He can manifest said concept with any weapon, including chopsticks.

I do believe he's done things where the concepts will disappear for a short time, but then come back.

I would say Type 3 at a glance.
To clarify something: Yes, Type 2 concepts do not have to be universal in range. In fact, even type 1 don't have to. They could apply only to a small pocket dimension. Or, theoretically, someone with concept manipulation could apply a Type 2/1 concept to a limited area in space.
However, if something affects a concept and it only affects things 3m around them for no reason, that certainly sounds more like a personal concept than one that just happened to govern that small bubble of reality.

What lends further to that interpretation is that the area in question probably didn't remain without sound and light (correct me if I'm wrong there). I doubt the sword slash would have a function to restore those concepts after it's done either. For a personal concept, it's plausible for light and sound to be restored on their own (because different sounds and different light can just enter the area), but for Type 2 or 1 I would expect some kind of concept power to be needed to get them back.