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Another Reid downgrade

Vietthai96 said:
At this point idek wtf is being debated here

Everything is default tied to cause and effect but well that isn't my question, my fault that i should me more specific, but i want to ask about the Acausality stuff, but whatever. Idk why you suddenly wrote a wall of texts but away, i already said that i not side with anyone in this thread, neutrality, what i want to say is why Acausality get brought up, it is comeplete unrelated to CM, you can have CM with feat interacting with Acausality 5, NEP Nature 2 and even Transdual Aspect 3 while the CM in question is type 3, so like i said before, the thread completely went into a different direction that do not really related with CM
Click to expand...
If you agree with the bolded portion of this text then you should already know why conceptual manipulation can't inherently affect Regulus due to his acausality.

Anyway, I've already explained this many, many, many times. Here we go yet again.

Type 3 is described as a concept/conceptual ability that only affects the object it governs on a specific/local scale. Type 2 is described as a concept/conceptual ability capable of affecting all things in its area of influence.

The concept that Reid uses is his concept of "sword."

What can his concept affect?
  • Dimensions/Space.
  • The "world."
  • Beings that don't even participate in causality.
  • Non-physical objects, such as light and sound.
  • Magic, which is sourced from Od Laguna, the soul of the world that emanates all existence.
  • Authorities, which can directly influence all the rules of the world through connecting with Od Laguna directly.
Is it limited to just swords? Nope, not at all, the concept can be manifested using anything, even chopsticks. The sword concept really has nothing to do with the conventional sword. It is explained to just be the notion of slashing something down. So, in that sense, it absolutely isn't limited to "the object it governs."

When an object is met with his concept, it is slashed down, without fail. It doesn't matter if it's physical, spatial, if they manipulate laws, if they don't participate in causality, etc... it will be slashed down due to his concept. That's the jist of his ability.
 
Although the process of manipulating concepts often involves cause and effect, I don't think it inherently means that the concepts or ideas themselves rely on causality or that you can resist CM due to it. But I'm not entirely sure. Ultimately, I think it still depends on whether the verse in discussion treats concepts and causality as reliant on each other. Tho, It's more common to find verses in which concepts exist before causality, rather than the opposite, to be honest.
 
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I was waiting until DontTalk commented his thoughts on the Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation arguments made, but since he hasn't commented in quite some time. I guess I'll give my thoughts on them either today or tomorrow.
 
LordGinSama said:
Continuation of this thread. It seems like this either wasn't applied despite being accepted or it got added again for the same shitty reasons to be frank.


Right now Reid has CM Type 2 via bringing in the concept of the "sword", however I still fail to see how this is Type 2 Conceptual manipulation as Reid isn't even effecting concepts that govern the universe / reality. He's slashed apart the concepts of sound and light, but it's not as if he ever effected the universal concepts of light and sound or said concepts would disappear entirely from the universe, not just the technique that uses it.

CM Type 2 removal

Currently Type 2 Conceptual manipulation is defined as the following.

Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a by-product of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity"


Reid was given Type 2 for the misconception that Type 2 doesn't require effecting these universal concepts but that's simply incorrect as that would defeat the entire point of us splitting the types apart. Type 3 is for effecting individual concepts without effecting reality, Type 2 is effecting the concepts on a universal scale across reality and Type 1 is effecting concepts that exist outside / above reality.



At no point has Reid ever altered or destroyed these concepts. He killed the concept of sound and light, but yet they still exist within the universe as eternal darkness and silence was never mentioned.
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Gin?
 
Bump.

Is the Od Laguna stated to be a source that existence stems / relies on? Such a statement would be efficient enough for Type 2 CM especially if it's bound by a universal principle.
 
LordGinSama said:
Bump.

Is the Od Laguna stated to be a source that existence stems / relies on?
Click to expand...
Well, there's this statement:
But, I know that the thing called Od Lagna is considered to be the center of the world… the place to which all mana returns, I suppose.” Re:Zero Light Novel Volume 24, Chapter 3, Section 6.
Click to expand...
Which is kinda vague on itself, since It can be interpreted diferently. Od Laguna is bassicaly the Soul of the word.
So there's is this one character who uses od Laguna as the sources of her Power, and when she absorbs the Magic from od Laguna, she causes natural disasters to occur, so there's some evidência that Od Laguna is kinda important somehow.
 
That isn't really what I had in mind tbh, is there any statements like Od Laguna being the source of all that exist? I.E is it responsible for the existence of everything in verse?
 
LordGinSama said:
That isn't really what I had in mind tbh, is there any statements like Od Laguna being the source of all that exist? I.E is it responsible for the existence of everything in verse?
Click to expand...
No i don't think so.
Od Laguna is just basically the Soul of the world and the source of mana, that holds everything in check, so the world don't collapse. I don't think there's statement of od Laguna being responsible for the existence of everything. Is probally is, but i not sure If there's a statement.
Zabazab might know If there's is.
 
I was gonna wait for zab to do the scan drop since i suck at it but lemme do some scans that i found
Od laguna is the mechanism/system/supernatural being/existence that holds the world together and stops it from crumbling.


Subaru: "Louis said it was a mechanism to keep the world from breaking. Do you have any idea?"
Beatrice: "Even Betty isn't well-knowledgeable regarding that, I suppose. But at least that it is said to be the world's core point…… where all the mana returns to, is known, in fact."
Turning her neck sideways, Beatrice voiced out her doubt. Putting her finger on her sliding down drills, she continued to fidget with her hair.
Beatrice: "All mana returns there, subsequently circulating…… In other words, Od Lagna is an existence heavily tied to the death and Regenerationn of spirits. That's why, it wouldn't be correct to say Betty and the others of her kind are unrelated to it."
Click to expand...

Subaru: "That God Od Lagna is pretty cruel."
Louis: "That thing can't be called a god. It isn't as wonderful as it may seem. It's just a mechanism. A mechanism to keep the world from breaking."
Click to expand...
~ Arc 6, Chapter 60
Click to expand...

Its also the spirit that has manifested the real world itself

The Od Laguna is a spirit that is of supernatural existence which gives life and materializes the real world with the power of mana and interferes with the world with it's own will.
~ Bond of Ice, Prologue
Click to expand...
 
I'll drop a reply regarding my opinion soon. Thanks for the scans, those are appreciated.
 
SatellaTheWoE said:
Its also the spirit that has manifested the real world itself
Click to expand...
These are the other direct statements about it's nature I think.

Web Novel Arc 4 Interlude II – Emilia Camp ● Warlock ● Spirit ● Spiritual Arts User:
Roswaal: “Make sure you do not misunderstand. The possibility is present because it is her. There is no way to bring back lives that have met a conventional death. Od Lagna would never permit such convenient magic as resurrection.”

Subaru: “Od Lagna?” Subaru scrunched his face at the new word.

Roswaal: “Od Lagna is… How to say, a stockpile of Mana at the core of the world. No, supposing that the world itself were a living creature, then Od Lagna would be its nexus, and the Od of the world. Though we can only imagine as to its exact location, and whether it is sentient or not.”
Click to expand...
Subaru: “And that was Od Lagna… The fountain of the world?”

Roswaal: “Just as humans fear injury or disease, the world rejects those liable to shake its foundations. That was what some first started saying about Od Lagna. The true common point between those whose minds were broken by witnessing Od Lagna, was that they reached new heights of magic that would have rewritten the practice’s history.”
Click to expand...
Roswaal: “One theory states that Od Lagna is the consciousness ruling over everything in the world. And though it warrants skepticism, perhaps Od Lagna could be the one bestowing people with Divine Protections—— Is the nonsense that people have come up with.”
Click to expand...

Author Q&As:
“Od Lagna isn’t really a lifeform with a will, so it isn’t generally hostile towards anyone. It’s similar to the sun. Reinhard would win if they fought, though.”
Click to expand...
“When Reinhard feels a Divine Protection is needed, Od Lagna creates it and gives it to him. Sometimes there are errors in conveying his intention, and he doesn’t get a proper Divine Protection.”
Click to expand...
“No one's asked about this before, but I don’t think Divine Protections related to laughter exist. Since Od Lagna doesn’t understand people's hearts.”
Click to expand...

Volume 24:
Subaru: “That God called Od Lagna is pretty malicious, isn’t it?”

Rui: “It’s not an article so great as to be called a god, that thing. That thing has nothing like such splendid ideology, after all. It’s just a mechanism, you know. A mechanism for keeping the world from breaking is what it is.”

Subaru: "A mechanism...?"

Rui: “Whether it’s Witch Factors, or Divine Protections, or Sword Saints, or Witches, it considers nothing, you know. If there’s something nice about Od Lagna, it’s just that it’s uninterested, equal, impartial, and favors nothing.”
Click to expand...
Beatrice: “But, I know that the thing called Od Lagna is considered to be the center of the world… the place to which all Mana returns, I suppose.”
Click to expand...

Volume 25:
If the Book of the Dead of this Subaru was truly here, then――

Subaru: “Am I being treated as deceased, ever since I lost my memories… The Books of the Dead of Taygeta, that Hall of Memories, is even observing the worlds I die in…?”

If that were the case, then in no way was it inconceivable that it was depicting Subaru’s Deaths in some type of form through the Book of the Dead. However, in that case, what did that make of Return by Death?

Subaru: “Whether it rewinds time, or does it rebuild the world itself, I’d given a thought to both but…”

For argument’s sake, along the hypothesis that the Books of the Dead held a method to generate the Book of “Natsuki Subaru”, it could not be helped but to reach the conviction that the latter had much more likelihood. If that held true, then the phenomenon which encased this Natsuki Subaru was not something as charming as Return by Death, but――
Click to expand...
Rui: “Witch Factors are the antithesis of Od Lagna, after all!”
Click to expand...
Subaru: “She may be staying in the Corridor of Memories, but she can’t be its ruler. Its ruler is… a guy even more nasty, I think. Considering it from this situation…” Halting words there for once, Subaru and “Subaru” collectively stated. “――The Sage, Flugel.”
Click to expand...

The Witch's After Tea Party/Requirements to be a Witch:
Minerva’s Authority let her forcefully convert the destructive energy she could hold into healing power. Her punches and kicks were some of the gentlest in the whole world, but they did not come cheap. Her forceful conversion of power forcibly linked straight into Od Lagna, the root of this World, twisting its rules, causing it to execute this. And because of that, the World was forced to pay its due compensation for having twisted its general notions, in the shape of a natural disaster somewhere completely unrelated.
Click to expand...

And in addition statements about the Observers, which the Od Lagna would be counted among. Their exact nature isn't currently determinable so I think it's not as useful as direct statements about Od Lagna:
Melinda:「My lord husband is the pariah who was abandoned by his homeland. My lord husband is the fang of the criminal who curses destiny. My lord husband is the saviour of us outcasts who were rejected by history. My lord husband is the absolute blow to the Observers who sit in the heavens above.」
Click to expand...
Stride:「The testament of the realm fades away, and so the Dragon’s salvation shan’t come. The light coming from your Divine Protections seeps not through, and so heroes become ordinary men. Witness, cruel Observers who look down at us from the heavens above, feast your eyes to your hearts’ content. ――Witness the choices the world shall make.」
Click to expand...
Stride:「This world is the cruel Observers’ miniature garden. Fixed events, fate that has already been decided, where tragedy and comedy are a matter of course. It’s no more than a puppet show, merely produced and garnished to make it look as if it were real.」

Stride:「It’s quite simple, man and woman of minor roles. The Observers hath cast their roles in their miniature garden… Namely, the Divine Protections. And you small fry differ from their pawns. My venerable self as well. And my venerable self’s wife, the Shinobi twins, and even the『Eight Arms.』What the Observers expect of us is tantamount to nothing more than playing these nameless minor roles, which we do so like bumbling idiots, in an environment where everything is already decided.」
Click to expand...
Stride:「――Listen, Kurgan. My venerable self saw the truth in the midst of my delirium. My venerable self saw the way the Observers are, seated in the heavens above, looking down upon us with scorn, toying with us as if we were mere pieces upon a board.」
Click to expand...
 
Fezzih_007 said:
No i don't think so.
Od Laguna is just basically the Soul of the world and the source of mana, that holds everything in check, so the world don't collapse. I don't think there's statement of od Laguna being responsible for the existence of everything. Is probally is, but i not sure If there's a statement.
Zabazab might know If there's is.
Click to expand...
bro is so into low-balling Re: Zero he forgot the scans...
 
Alright so is Od Laguna like the source of existence or anything like that? From what I'm reading it seems that way.
 
Type 2 CM should be fine then. I'd just figure out a way to phrase that properly in the profile.

Now let us rejoice it's time for Drunk Gin to play rdrd2 for 8 hours straight.
 
No, you not gonna get CM2 by defeat someone that is the source of all existence, unless you are stated to be able to destroy said "person", and said person is AE1 Concept Type 2 based
 
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