Another Reid downgrade

[Zabazab]

Snip

The concepts of sound and light are currently rated as Type 3 anyway, the Type 2 rating came from manifesting & offensively utilizing the concept of "Slashing down objects", I'd explain it as:

Lastly and most importantly, manifesting the concept of the "Sword". This ability allows Reid, through his unworldly swordsmanship, to bring forth the very notion of the "Sword" through any object he wields. The "Sword" in this case being described by the source material as "That which is brought forth for the purpose of slashing down objects". Whether Reid uses a real sword, a pipe, or just a regular wooden chopstick does not matter, as the notion of "slashing down objects" is manifested through it. It is stated that this sword-flash slashes down everything in it's path, be it the atmosphere, space itself, and concepts, and is also stated to both fissure the world as well as bisect the world itself.

 

[Zabazab]

Snip

Ninja'd

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

i am in favour of type 2 concepts after looking at zab, bob and gins arguements
Reid has 3 seperate statements of such along with volcanica providing even more elaboration on it

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Following and assimilating info hehehehehehhehehehehehehehehhehehehehehe

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Following and assimilating info hehehehehehhehehehehehehehehhehehehehehe

Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

 

[Phoenks]

Another thing that might be useful to mention is that Reid's concept cutting thing could even bypass Regulus' acausality which separates him from the flow of time in the universe, and is even compared to being in an entirely different dimension. Nothing, not even Reinhard, who can effortlessly cleave space, could hit Regulus. But Reid is capable of beheading him.

 

[Zabazab]

Another thing that might be useful to mention is that Reid's concept cutting thing could even bypass Regulus' acausality which separates him from the flow of time in the universe, and is even compared to being in an entirely different dimension. Nothing, not even Reinhard, who can effortlessly cleave space, could hit Regulus. But Reid is capable of beheading him.

He is also just outright stated to be able to slash dimensions with said ability.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Bump, les't get this over with please, this kinda already have two staff agreement, but is kinda of a misunderstand

 

[CloverDragon03]

The removal looks good to me

 

[LordGinSama]

Another thing that might be useful to mention is that Reid's concept cutting thing could even bypass Regulus' acausality which separates him from the flow of time in the universe, and is even compared to being in an entirely different dimension. Nothing, not even Reinhard, who can effortlessly cleave space, could hit Regulus. But Reid is capable of beheading him.

That's pretty much irrelevant, Acausality doesn't provide resistance against normal attacks and it's not Regulus is a conceptual entity. He's intangible but not on a conceptual level.

He is also just outright stated to be able to slash dimensions with said ability.

That also doesn't really provide evidence for CM as that's just spatial manipulation.


Anyway still waiting on Deceived and DontTalk regarding the "Sword" concept stuff.

 

[Phoenks]

That's pretty much irrelevant, Acausality doesn't provide resistance against normal attacks and it's not Regulus is a conceptual entity. He's intangible but not on a conceptual level.

It's not really irrelevant. It means he's capable of manifesting this concept of sword onto anomalies like Regulus who doesn't abide by time and is essentially outside of the universe as a result. Him also being able to apply this concept across "dimensions" is also notable IMO.

Type 3 concepts, definitionally, are local and limited in scope and only govern specific objects. So for his concept of sword to be capable of slashing through dimensions and even across things outside of time, I do believe it could be note-worthy when discussing its validity for Type 2.

 

[LordGinSama]

It's not really irrelevant. It means he's capable of manifesting this concept of sword onto anomalies like Regulus who doesn't abide by time and is essentially outside of the universe as a result. Him also being able to apply this concept across "dimensions" is also notable IMO.

Regulus does not exist outside the universe. He's still very much apart of the universe, his time is just frozen is all. The very fact that he's dependent on his time being frozen means he still exists within the universe, it's not like he has Beyond Dimensional Existence or some type of NEP that let's him exist entirely separate from the universe as a whole.


This is just NPI / Invulnerability negation. Not Reid effecting a conceptual being. He's just an Acausal being, he's still very much apart of the universe. Anyone who has conceptual manipulation can effect Regulus just fine.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Regulus does not exist outside the universe. He's still very much apart of the universe, his time is just frozen is all. The very fact that he's dependent on his time being frozen means he still exists within the universe, it's not like he has Beyond Dimensional Existence or some type of NEP that let's him exist entirely separate from the universe as a whole.


This is just NPI / Invulnerability negation. Not Reid effecting a conceptual being. He's just an Acausal being, he's still very much apart of the universe. Anyone who has conceptual manipulation can effect Regulus just fine.

Except there is a literal statement for EMM which is a lesser version of Regulus's authority putting them outside of Space-time and reality itself?

 

[LordGinSama]

Except there is a literal statement for EMM which is a lesser version of Regulus's authority putting them outside of Space-time and reality itself?

Post it and have it accepted, words are meaningless.

 

[Zabazab]

That also doesn't really provide evidence for CM as that's just spatial manipulation.

It wasn't to provide evidence of CM, that isn't what's being debated. It was to showcase that the concept of slashing down objects can be applied to more esoteric abilities such as said dimensional manipulation or damage transferal.

Post it and have it accepted, words are meaningless.

In case you want the scans:

Subaru: “——E · M · M!!”

Regulus: “…What?”

The high-pitched chant made the Mana inside of Subaru’s damaged Gate sensitive to Beatrice’s manipulation, and from there, exclusive magic which no one else had yet developed was casted. One of three original spells devised by Beatrice and Natsuki Subaru―― the magic of absolute defense, E · M · M, was activated.

Subaru’s body would be wrapped in an invisible magical field which would allow him to sidestep from the plane of existence, nullifying any attack on him, be it physical or magical.

Regulus’s fingertips did not bring any harm to Subaru upon reaching him. Upon witnessing this incident, for the first time, Regulus revealed an expression of stiff shock.

E · M · M was one of the three original spells Subaru developed with Beatrice.

This particular one was Absolute Defense Magic.

During the activation of E · M · M, Subaru would not receive any interference from the outside world, being rendered unable to move. It was the result of applying all of Beatrice’s Yin magic skill and knowledge into manipulating time and space in a limited area around Subaru.

Subaru: “It’s a bit weird realizing that the effect is similar to that asshole’s―― Guah!?”

The Sin Archbishop of Greed, Regulus, could stop the effect of time on his body by transferring his heart.

E · M · M could be said to be a downsized version of that ability. However, there was no harmful side effect like stopping the heart, so one would become invincible as long as their Mana was not exhausted.

Beatrice: “――E · M · M!!”

One of the three original magic spells Subaru and Beatrice had devised.

To be given a broad explanation, it was magic of absolute defense, of the kind that stopped the flow of time of Subaru and Beatrice’s flesh bodies, which would thus take no external effect.

Subaru: “We got so hyped when we first devised it, but because the guy who used a similar ability was just the worst, whenever it’s used it feels like using a last resort for survival that I’d never otherwise use!”

Beatrice: “That issue has already been spoken about, in fact! Betty has already decided to close her eyes, I suppose!”

Hearing Subaru’s cries, Beatrice, being lugged on his shoulder, yelled so.

The ability of “invincibility” held by the Sin Archbishop of Greed, Regulus Corneas, was potent might befitting of being labelled as being backward compatible with this E · M · M. Though its user had been the worst, its practical usage was outstanding, at a level which they should be aiming for, yet a territory they did not wish to reach.

 

[Phoenks]

Yeah, Gin you're missing the point. I am saying that him being able to apply his concept across space and time could potentially be further evidence of this being Type 2. Being able to slash Regulus with his concept would mean its able to interfere with time directly. And being able to slash dimensions with concepts would mean its able to interfere with space directly.

I can't see how this would be a personal concept at all when that's the case...

 

[TauanVictor]

Why do we assume Regulus to be intangible on a conceptual level? Its invulnerability comes from time afaik.

 

[Phoenks]

Why do we assume Regulus to be intangible on a conceptual level? Its invulnerability comes from time afaik.

Once again, that is not the point at all. The point is that his conceptual manipulation extends to people who have effectively cut themselves out of the universe by altering their own time. That is to say, he is able to extend this concepts to temporal anomalies like Regulus, something that I do not think a Type 3 concept could do.

Something like a type 3 concept of death, or type 3 concept of erasure, would not be able to affect Regulus due to his nature. Nor would they inherently be capable of being applied across dimensions and space.

 

[LordGinSama]

Having your time stopped doesn't grant resistance to Conceptual manipulation or EE. Acausality isn't something that makes you a separate part of the universe / exist outside the universe.


Regulus doesn't have anything like that on his profile atm.

 

[Phoenks]

Having your time stopped doesn't grant resistance to Conceptual manipulation or EE. Acausality isn't something that makes you a separate part of the universe / exist outside the universe.


Regulus doesn't have anything like that on his profile atm.

Regulus can't be affected by anything due to his stopped time, which is why he is equivalated to being an anomaly that doesn't exist in the same universe.

His Acausality would not let him be affected by Type 3 Concepts (Which are limited to the point of being equivalated to the general ability) or EE or Death hax, etc - it's not about resistance, it's about the mechanic behind it. His time is stopped, thus his form never changes, ever. He's permanently locked in the same state, separated from cause and effect.

And yet, this "concept of sword" can change him, despite of that. That is definitely notable when speaking of its validity for Type 2.

As is it being able to slash across dimensions. That's not something that should be possible of this concept of sword was only a Type 3 concept. Type 3 concepts are supposed to be limited and personal to the object they govern.

I want to ask you, what exactly do you think a Type 3 concept of sword would be? What would it govern?

 

[LordGinSama]

Regulus can't be affected by anything due to his stopped time, which is why he is equivalated to being an anomaly that doesn't exist in the same universe.

Again not in the profile and having any sort of Acausality doesn't make you immune to everything, especially conceptual manipulation. Acausality explicitly doesn't grant resistance to that sort of abilities. Amd as far as I'm aware, Regulus still exists as part of the universe, it's just that the laws of the world don't apply to him.

His Acausality would not let him be affected by Type 3 Concepts (Which are limited to the point of being equivalated to the general ability) or EE or Death hax, etc - it's not about resistance, it's about the mechanic behind it.

The resistance isnt what i'm even reffering to, it's Acausality itself. Quite literally no form of Acausality can grant you resistance to CM of any kind. Acausality is either not being apart of the laws of the world such as Causality or outright transcending it. Acausality has never granted resistances to CM or EE but you can feel free to post where and when we've ever done that.

His time is stopped, thus his form never changes, ever. He's permanently locked in the same state, separated from cause and effect.

Cause and Effect =/= Conceptual manipulation. Two very different abilities.

And yet, this "concept of sword" can change him, despite of that. That is definitely notable when speaking of its validity for Type 2.

Change him how? Context would be nice but even then changing a character with Acausality isn't evidence for Conceptual manipulation either. Regulus isn't a Conceptual entity nor does he exist outside of the universe, his time is just stopped which halts his progression / advancement. That's what any regular old Acausality does.

As is it being able to slash across dimensions. That's not something that should be possible of this concept of sword was only a Type 3 concept. Type 3 concepts are supposed to be limited and personal to the object they govern.

Regulus doesn't govern anything. Slashing dimensions is just spatial manipulation, not seeing how any of this is evidence for Type 2.

I want to ask you, what exactly do you think a Type 3 concept of sword would be? What would it govern?

That depends on how the verse actually defines the concept of the "sword.". So far nobody's actually bothered to explain what the concept of the sword actually embodies and instead has just been listing interaction feats.


For CM Type 2 if you want that to apply to Reid basically all you'd need to do is provide evidence like how Sukuna did for his World Cutter. Same principle as Reid but Sukuna's is explained short but sweet. Does Reid have feats such as cutting down Type 2 concepts such as Infinity or anything of the sort? I can see the argument for Regulus if he had NEP or something but I don't agree with effecting something Acausal as evidence for Type 2.

 

[Zabazab]

That depends on how the verse actually defines the concept of the "sword.". So far nobody's actually bothered to explain what the concept of the sword actually embodies and instead has just been listing interaction feats.

Explained here.

To reiterate; the "Sword" refers to just the idea of "slashing down an object". Because Reid manifests the very concept of "slashing down an object", there is nothing in the universe that will not be slashed down. He is taking that concept, manifesting it, and applying it to whatever he "slashes down", no matter what sort of thing it is: an object, magic, dimensions, type 3 concepts, or Authorities (abilities described as "the right to interfere with the world" and come from the "antithesis of Od Lagna", which is the soul of the World that manifests reality).

In any case I recommend you edit the OP, since most of it is referring to either Reid's CM not applying changes across the universe- which was debunked as a necessity- or it is arguing that killing sound and light is a Type 3 feat, which it is already indexed as on his profile.

The resistance isnt what i'm even reffering to, it's Acausality itself. Quite literally no form of Acausality can grant you resistance to CM of any kind.

The point Phoenix is making is that CM Type 3 Dura-Neg would not bypass Regulus' Authority of Greed, since Type 3 grants no additional hax potency. Regulus himself has no resistance to nearly anything he has been unaffected by, it just doesn't interact with him. Regulus' Authority is explained quite extensively on his profile, and scans have been posted here that indicate it prevents change & sidesteps existence.

 

[LordGinSama]

the right to interfere with the world" and come from the "antithesis of Od Lagna", which is the soul of the World that manifests reality).

Can you elaborate more upon the first two highlights?

The point Phoenix is making is that CM Type 3 Dura-Neg would not bypass Regulus' Authority of Greed, since Type 3 grants no additional hax potency.

That depends on the Type 3 in question, i have a few in mind that'd effect Regulus no issue but that's besides the point. Unless Regulus has dealt with Type 3 CM then i see no reason as to why it would fail to work on him unless very similar abilities to Type 3 failed. So I'll ask for some feats or scans regarding his Authority extending that far.

"With stopped time Regulus himself was a distortion in space." This implies he still exists within the universe.

I'm not seeing anything in his profile that mentions him sidestepping existence.

 

[Zabazab]

Can you elaborate more upon the first two highlights?

It'd be a pretty big lore-dump, you can check out the Re:Zero Wiki for a general overview of The Od Lagna and Authorities, I think it should explain the ideas well enough (particularly the reference sections which have the quotes).

If you have further inquiries I can answer them, but to fully elaborate on Od Lagna, Witch Factors, Authorities, and the relationships between them would take a while to gather scans & create an in-depth explanation that covers everything I need to.

I'm not seeing anything in his profile that mentions him sidestepping existence.

Here's some scans.

 

[Worthless]

The resistance isnt what i'm even reffering to, it's Acausality itself. Quite literally no form of Acausality can grant you resistance to CM of any kind. Acausality is either not being apart of the laws of the world such as Causality or outright transcending it. Acausality has never granted resistances to CM or EE but you can feel free to post where and when we've ever done that.

In rare cases, I'm pretty sure it does, and he himself is the very example of it. The way his power works is the main reason why I said in your thread that Regulus is one of the characters that's closest to Type 5. He literally doesn't experience changes physically and spiritually, enabling him to ignore pretty much any attack, including non-physical ones.

his time is just stopped which halts his progression / advancement

Lol

 

[LordGinSama]

In rare cases, I'm pretty sure it does.

Name one.

and he himself is the very example of it.

For the reasons you havent explained gotcha?

The way his power works is the main reason why I said in your thread that Regulus is one of the characters that's closest to Type 5.

Regulus is Type 4 not 5.

He literally doesn't experience changes physically and spiritually, enabling him to ignore pretty much any attack, including non-physical ones.

That's not Type 5 Acausality and no form of Acausality grants you intangibility.

 

[Worthless]

Name one.

Regulus.

For the reasons you havent explained gotcha?

Thought didn't need to be considered, as his profile pretty much already tells you all you need to know about him.

Regulus is Type 4 not 5.

Hence, the "closest" Acausality type 4 usually doesn't grant resistance or immunity against physical attacks, those traits are characteristic of type 5.

That's not Type 5 Acausality and no form of Acausality grants you intangibility.

Type 5: Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality are completely independent of cause and effect, existing outside causality. Characters of this nature require evidence of being unable to be changed by any effect that relies on a system of causality, meaning that interacting with them normally is impossible.

Unless the interacting in context means causing damage or something else that's not related to intangibility.

 

[LordGinSama]

Regulus.

Regulus doesn't have conceptual manipulation resistance nor has anyone gotten NEP added to his profile.

Thought didn't need to be considered, as his profile pretty much already tells you all you need to know about him.

Not really as he doesn't have Type 5 Acausality as you were literally implying.

Hence, the "closest" Acausality type 4 usually doesn't grant resistance or immunity against physical attacks, those traits are characteristic of type 5.

Which Regulus doesn't have.

Unless the interacting in context means causing damage or something else that's not related to intangibility.

It's invulnerability and intangibility. Both are within his profile that you keep referring to

 

[Worthless]

Regulus doesn't have conceptual manipulation resistance nor has anyone gotten NEP added to his profile.

He has shown resistance against nonphysical attacks, such as Sirius authority, that causes anyone within the vicinity to go insane. It also affects the soul.
You won't see it on his profile because it's not really an act of resisting but rather ignoring.

Not really as he doesn't have Type 5 Acausality as you were literally implying..

I'm not necessarily saying it's type 5 but rather closest to it. But whatever.

Which Regulus doesn't have.

It's how his power functions. No attack can affect him, be it physical or spiritual / nonphysical.

It's invulnerability and intangibility. Both are within his profile that you keep referring to

Idk about intangibility but okay.

 

[LordGinSama]

He has shown resistance against nonphysical attacks, such as Sirius authority, that causes anyone within the vicinity to go insane. It also affects the soul. You won't see it on his profile because it's not really an act of resisting but rather ignoring.

Again that's just invulnerability. Also the term non physical in his profile is misused as the senses are still physical. Effecting the soul is fine but invulnerability already covers that, none of this is NEP or Type 5 Acausality.

I'm not necessarily saying it's type 5 but rather closest to it. But whatever.

Not really but yeah whatever.

It's how his power functions. No attack can affect him, be it physical or spiritual nonphysical.

That's irrelevant.

 

[Worthless]

Again that's just invulnerability. Also the term non physical in his profile is misused as the senses are still physical. Effecting the soul is fine but invulnerability already covers that, none of this is NEP or Type 5 Acausality.

And what causes his invulnerability? It's his inability to experience changes right?

Not really but yeah whatever.

Type 4 normally only grants you resistance / immunity against causality, time, and law manipulation, but not against all sorts of physical attacks and other forms of non-physical attacks such as mind and soul manipulation. These characteristics usually can only be found in Type 5.

That's irrelevant.

You said Regulus doesn't have it, but he does.

 

[Phoenks]

What he's trying to say is that Regulus' Acausality functions identically to Type 5, which is true.

 

[LordGinSama]

And what causes his invulnerability? It's his inability to experience changes right?

Causality =/= CM resistance.

Type 4 normally only grants you resistance / immunity against causality, time, and law manipulation, but not against all sorts of physical attacks.

Regulus's ability isn't only Type 4, it's also invulnerability which already covers this.

and other forms of non-physical attacks such as mind and soul manipulation. These characteristics usually can only be found in Type 5.

Read above.

You said Regulus doesn't have it, but he does.

I never said Regulus doesn't have invulnerability, don't put words in my mouth.

What he's trying to say is that Regulus' Acausality functions identically to Type 5, which is true.

Not really Type 4 Acausality + Invulnerability = Type 5. Type 5 is complete transcendence of the world's systems of Cause and Effect. Regardless I digress, if you think Regulus should be Type 5 then make a separate CRT. As it stands right now Lion's Heart or whatever ability Regulus has is just Invulnerability + Type 4 Acausality. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Worthless]

What he's trying to say is that Regulus' Acausality functions identically to Type 5, which is true.

Yeah. A case like this is very rare. I've never seen Type 4 counter an attack other than an attack that manipulates the system they transcend.

 

[Worthless]

Causality =/= CM resistance.

Regulus's ability isn't only Type 4, it's also invulnerability which already covers this.

Read above.

I never said Regulus doesn't have invulnerability, don't put words in my mouth.

Not really Type 4 Acausality + Invulnerability = Type 5. Type 5 is complete transcendence of the world's systems of Cause and Effect. Regardless I digress, if you think Regulus should be Type 5 then make a separate CRT. As it stands right now Lion's Heart or whatever ability Regulus has is just Invulnerability + Type 4 Acausality. Nothing more, nothing less.

His Acausality and Invulnerability stem from the same thing, and it's his inability to experience changes due to time being stopped.

 

[LordGinSama]

His Acausality and Invulnerability stem from the same thing, and it's his inability to experience changes due to time being stopped.

I'm aware but that doesn't mean that one ability can't be a magnitude of abilities. Which is how it's worded and accepted on the profile.

 

[Phoenks]

Atp I think we just need someone with actual say in this to give an opinion.

Lordgin I respect you for trying to answer everything but to be completely real with you it seems like you purposefully misunderstand what people are saying in order to strawman them. Also, the only difference between Regulus' acausality and type 5 acausality is that he has no statements of transcending causality. That's the only difference.

His "invulnerability" is a result of his acausality. It acts the exact same as type 5, which prevents you from being interacted with due to being outside of causality. Regulus is the same way.

The reason he doesn't have Type 5 is because that requires one to transcend causality. Which is pretty dumb imo. It's pretty much the difference between nonduality and transduality. Both act the same way, but one requires you to transcend the dualities involved.

 

[Worthless]

It's pretty much the difference between nonduality and transduality

You sum it perfectly

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I pretty much agree with what phoenks says here, Regulus is like Acasuality 4.9

 

[Phoenks]

On second thought maybe we could actually upgrade Regulus to type 5...

Type 5: Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality are completely independent of cause and effect, existing outside causality. Characters of this nature require evidence of being unable to be changed by any effect that relies on a system of causality, meaning that interacting with them normally is impossible.

He blatantly fulfills these requirements.

Spoiler: Regulus explanation

If time has stopped for an object, then that means it doesn’t change. No change means no getting injured, and it also means no getting wet, either. The dirt you throw and the water droplets all had their time stopped, too, so they couldn’t be held back by the things they hit and just passed right through.”

With his time stopped, Regulus Corneas himself was a distortion in space. The bits of dirt that had been suspended in time had the destructive power to break through any and all defenses. It was possible to walk freely across the top of water whose time had been frozen. And he could nullify all attacks against him by simply stopping his own time.

It was the ultimate attack and the ultimate defense depending on how it was used. The invincibility was just a side effect of time stopping.

The only issue is if Type 5 requires you to be transcendent to the system of causality or not. I'm unsure what it exactly means by "Completely independent." But Regulus just doesn't participate in cause and effect.