Conceptual Manipulation Clarifications/Revisions

[QuasiYuri]

We goes at each other throat again lol

Anyway i fine with either name because it is mostly just name, but i do prefer keep the name "Type 3" rather than using "Other".
Also i am thinking about rename Type 3 from Lesser Realist Concept to Local, Personal Concept. When we revise conceptual, we change type 1 and 2 to universal independant and universal dependant, the two name itself is really direct and easy to understand. But type 3 we still keeping the name Lesser Realist Concept which to many peoples, hard to grasp the meaning at first sight

That's the idea that I thought as applied already, so I agree with that.

We should also fix some information on Regeneration page, High Godly section or people will just goes wild with High Godly when they saw someone regen from conceptual destruction. Anyway i'm in full agreement with description, as resist the effect of a local type can be resist by other type of resistance

Godly regen should get its own thread, given how there's more issues than that.

 

[Vietthai96]

Yeah, because i think if we have concept that govern something at large scale, there should be concept that govern small scale, like an individual, an object, or a group or small place, etc......it is still their fundamental part of their existence, but only for them

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway i fine with either name because it is mostly just name, but i do prefer keep the name "Type 3" rather than using "Other".
Also i am thinking about rename Type 3 from Lesser Realist Concept to Local, Personal Concept. When we revise conceptual, we change type 1 and 2 to universal independant and universal dependant, the two name itself is really direct and easy to understand. But type 3 we still keeping the name Lesser Realist Concept which to many peoples, hard to grasp the meaning at first sight

This seems like a good idea to me.

We should also fix some information on Regeneration page, High Godly section or people will just goes wild with High Godly when they saw someone regen from conceptual destruction. Anyway i'm in full agreement with description, as resist the effect of a local type can be resist by other type of resistance

Hey Ant what is your opinion

Yes, we need to modify our definition of High-Godly Regeneration in conjunction with this. Good catch, and thank you for helping out.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Alright, so let me try to summarize:
We have decided that we make the following changes

1. Type 3 gets changed to "Lokal / Personal Concept: Various other types of abstractions which can be manipulated to affect reality, but don't exactly meet one of the other definitions, are imaginable. In that case, this type should be listed and an explanation regarding the nature of the concepts and uses of the ability is required on the page. Due to the wide variety of things of this nature, the relationship to the other types and to other abilities needs to be determined from said explanation on the page. As such it is, amongst others, possible that regenerating from erasure in body, mind, soul and such a concept doesn't grant High-Godly Regeneration or that concept manipulation of this type can be resisted by resistance to a completely different ability of sufficiently similar nature and feats."
2. Type 1 and 2 get renamed to universal independent and universal dependant concepts respectively. (I really don't care about the names)
3. Information Manipulation gets 2 Types. One for Knowledge and one for information that shape reality. Data Manip stays its own page.
4. The High-Godly Regeneration page gets modified to specify that Type 1 and 2 Concepts are meant for now, until a thread is made to deal with whatever other issues there are.

Is that correct? If so, I would start applying things to finish the thread (and write a concrete draft for the Information Manip types).

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

This thread has come a long way while I was giving my exams.
Just a few gripes.

Type 3 gets changed to "Lokal / Personal Concept: Various other types of abstractions which can be manipulated to affect reality,

The label "Local/personal" doesn't match description. I think simply Lesser Fundamental Concepts as label suffices for the description at hand.

Type 1 and 2 get renamed to universal independent and universal dependant concepts respectively. (I really don't care about the names)

I don't like the ""universal"" label. Its gives a strong impression that range/AoE is the prime factor in deciding the type of concept. I am sure we pretty much agreed that range/AoE is a complete non-factor in deciding the Type/Nature of Concept.
Nature of Concept doesn't care if only one object/individual participate in it or infinite number of them, nor does it care for size of object whether its quantum sized or outerverse sized.

I suggest following:-
1) Type 1 :- Independent Concepts.
Concepts Independent of stuff/things participating in it ...etcetra
2)Type 2 :- Interdependent Concepts.
Concepts and stuff/objects participating in are dependent on each other. Changing one changes the other....etcetra
3) Type 3 :- Lesser Fundamental Concepts.
Stuff DT wrote for description.

Above is a rough outline of my alternative Labels of these types.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally approve of DontTalk's suggestions. They seem straightforward and easy to understand for our visitors.

Do you have any suggestions for better titles than "universal independent" and "universal dependent", given that you do not like them?

 

[Promestein]

Type 3 as Local / Personal concepts is more specific a label than the more general 'Other' described earlier so it needs a more specific description.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm going to modify something from @DontTalkDT description

1. Type 3 gets changed to "Local / Personal Concept: Various other types of abstractions which can be manipulated to affect reality, but on a local, personal scope and limited in scale; don't exactly meet one of the other definitions, are imaginable. In that case, this type should be listed and an explanation regarding the nature of the concepts and uses of the ability is required on the page. Due to the wide variety of things of this nature, the relationship to the other types and to other abilities needs to be determined from said explanation on the page. As such it is, amongst others, possible that regenerating from erasure in body, mind, soul and such a concept doesn't grant High-Godly Regeneration or that concept manipulation of this type can be resisted by resistance to a completely different ability of sufficiently similar nature and feats
2. Type 1 and 2 get renamed. Yes, bit Gilver did make a good points thus I have two kind of rename. One to universal independent and universal dependant concepts respectively, or second is to Reality Independant and Reality Dependant Concept. Actually Type can also be named Local/Personal Reality Concept. Well this is just my suggestion, final choice is you guys though
3. Information have type, oke, but should we need to named each type????
4. High Godly regen now require only type 1 and 2; regen from type 3 should go down to Mid Godly, local/personal concept is just slightly higher than personal soul and mind (mind in a sense is also an abstraction). Except some special case which needed a good evidences, we should also note this in High Godly section

Now, another tricky question. is Type 3 now still qualify for Abstract Existence?????. Well just this for now

 

[DontTalkDT]

1. Aside of slight wording fix I'm fine with using that definition, I suppose.
2. I don't care about the names. It's not like they really change stuff.
3. Maybe 'Knowledge' for the first type that deals with information as carriers of knowledge and 'Fundamental' for the second that deals with it as fundamental building block of reality?
4. Yeah, sound ok.
Bonus Question: Yes, it should still be AE, since our AE page was changed some time ago to not just be concepts but also other stuff like thoughts and information.

 

[Vietthai96]

Oke, yes, i'm waiting for your draft

 

[DontTalkDT]

Alright, here my Information Manip draft:

Information Manipulation​

Information Manipulation is the power to control, alter, and even destroy information itself. A vast variety of effects can be archieved using this ability, from gaining knowledge or altering what people know to warpin reality itself. Note that Information Analysis and Data Manipulation are considered separate abilities.

Types​

1. Knowledge: These characters can manipulate information as the medium of knowledge as opposed to just manipulating what a specific person knows, which would be considered Mind Manipulation. Characters with this ability can, for example, destroy information on a subject and by that make it inherently unknowable. Other examples of uses would be to prevent information from leaving an area, making it so that those outside can't gain knowledge of what is happening inside, or altering information to change what people know about the subject into something else.
2. Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

 

[Vietthai96]

I think i will look into this "tomorrow", i'm going to sleep lol

 

[Antvasima]

I do not mind to name the first two types of concept manipulation to "Reality dependent" and "Reality independent" instead of "Universal dependent" and "Universal independent".

However, I think that DontTalk's draft for the third type "Personal/Local concept" section seemed better worded and easier to understand.

The "Information Manipulation" page draft text seems fine to me.

Type 3 Concept Manipulation not being a qualifying factor for High-godly Regeneration anymore seems fine to me.

However, we need some further input from Promestein as well.

 

[Promestein]

that type 3 is too vague I think

3. Lesser Fundamental Concepts: Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon. Case-by-case specification is necessary for such concepts and examples, and they are likely not to meet quite the same standards for abilities such as High-Godly regeneration that other concepts may. Conceptual manipulation of this type can be resisted by those who resist sufficiently similar abilities, even if the exact mechanics may differ.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out. What do you think DontTalk?

 

[DontTalkDT]

that type 3 is too vague I think

3. Lesser Fundamental Concepts: Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon. Case-by-case specification is necessary for such concepts and examples, and they are likely not to meet quite the same standards for abilities such as High-Godly regeneration that other concepts may.

I would much like to include the "concept manipulation of this type can be resisted by resistance to a completely different ability of sufficiently similar nature and feats"-part in the description, because if it isn't nobody will accept the argument if it's brought up.

Likewise, I would like the reminder that an explanation regarding such concepts is required. Even the explanations for Type 8 Immortality are often not added, so there will be a lot of completly unexplained type 3 concepts if we don't have that.

 

[Promestein]

"Case-by-case specification is necessary for such concepts"

That was already there. Still updated it.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Not sure if people will understand that "case-by-case specifications are necessary" means "write a god damn explanation on the profile", but I suppose it's fine like this.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Just a question. Are type 3 like the essence of what would make the specific manifestations of a circle derive from the true concept of a circle? Or the abstract things of what derives each person from the concept of a person? Just asking since I’ve seen abstractions that function like such.

 

[Antvasima]

3. Lesser Fundamental Concepts: Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon. Case-by-case specifications and explanations are necessary for such concepts and examples, and they are likely not going to meet the same standards for abilities such as High-Godly regeneration that other concepts may. Conceptual manipulation of this type can be resisted by those who resist sufficiently similar abilities, even if the exact mechanics may differ.

I modified the above text somewhat. Is it more acceptable now?

 

[Promestein]

Sure.

I still want Data Manipulation covered under Information Manipulation.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I modified the above text somewhat. Is it more acceptable now?

Sure.

I still want Data Manipulation covered under Information Manipulation.

I don't.

 

[Antvasima]

I still agree with DontTalk about Data Manipulation. My apologies Promestein.

 

[Promestein]

Can't do much there, then. Go ahead and make the changes.

 

[Vietthai96]

Mircoscopic Concept when

Wait what about High Godly regen

 

[Antvasima]

Can't do much there, then. Go ahead and make the changes.

I have performed the change. Is this acceptable?

Conceptual Manipulation

Conceptual Manipulation is the ability to manipulate, create, and/or destroy abstract concepts. This ability has a variety of applications, ranging from not combat-applicable to incredibly dominating. Conceptual Manipulation involves the manipulation of concepts, and not the universe directly...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Mircoscopic Concept when

Wait what about High Godly regen

That also needs to be taken into account, yes.

@DontTalkDT @Promestein

Do you have any suggestions?

 

[Vietthai96]

I have performed the change. Is this acceptable?

Conceptual Manipulation

Conceptual Manipulation is the ability to manipulate, create, and/or destroy abstract concepts. This ability has a variety of applications, ranging from not combat-applicable to incredibly dominating. Conceptual Manipulation involves the manipulation of concepts, and not the universe directly...

vsbattles.fandom.com

That also needs to be taken into account, yes.

@DontTalkDT @Promestein

Do you have any suggestions?

DontTalk already accepted regen from Type 3 concept now by default will just be Mid Godly, High Godly which regen from Type 3 requiring extreme evidences. That it, but i don't know what is Promestein's opinion.

Edit: Also new Information Manipulation need to be applied

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That needs to be handled then.

Suggestions for workable wordings would be very appreciated.

 

[Promestein]

DontTalk already accepted regen from Type 3 concept now by default will just be Mid Godly, High Godly which regen from Type 3 requiring extreme evidences. That it, but i don't know what is Promestein's opinion.

I agree with DT.

Descriptions for types 1 and 2 should be altered to be less focused on the universal scope.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Feel free to give wording suggestions.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I have performed the change. Is this acceptable?

Conceptual Manipulation

Conceptual Manipulation is the ability to manipulate, create, and/or destroy abstract concepts. This ability has a variety of applications, ranging from not combat-applicable to incredibly dominating. Conceptual Manipulation involves the manipulation of concepts, and not the universe directly...

vsbattles.fandom.com

I made further changes to make it so that concepts don't need to be universal in AoE anymore. I hope the formulation is ok.

That also needs to be taken into account, yes.

@DontTalkDT @Promestein

Do you have any suggestions?

I would just change the regeneration text a little to:

The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying information or concept(s) (Type 1 or 2, 3 only rarely with strong evidence of being similar to the former types) needed for them to exist.

Not the nicest wording, but it does the job, I think.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I also went ahead and edited the information manip page with the draft I posted a few days ago.
Didn't get much input on it, but I wanted to start getting this thread wrapped up. If you feel we should talk more about it first feel free to revert the edit.

 

[Promestein]

Looks fine to me.

 

[Vietthai96]

Not the nicest wording, but it does the job, I think.

The Mid Godly section i think should also have regen from concept type 3 erasure/destruction

 

[DontTalkDT]

The Mid Godly section i think should also have regen from concept type 3 erasure/destruction

Eh, feel like the current definition suffices for that.
Either the Type 3 concept manip erases body, mind and soul, which makes it qualify by showing that, or it doesn't and doesn't qualify.

 

[Vietthai96]

Eh, feel like the current definition suffices for that.
Either the Type 3 concept manip erases body, mind and soul, which makes it qualify by showing that, or it doesn't and doesn't qualify.

Just what i think though, the final decision still up to you guys. I just paranoid about people who love to skip reading, or get confuse

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. Your edits look good to me.

I am personally reluctant to ever grant High-Godly Regeneration based on merely recovering from type 3 conceptual destruction, as it does not seem impressive enough.

However, here is a new version of the suggested text that reads a bit better to me:

"The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying information or concept(s) (Type 1 or 2, but only very rarely 3, if there is strong evidence of being similar to the former types) needed for them to exist."

 

[deonment]

I mean, a type 3 concept is still a fundamental aspect of a character's being in the case of them being a personal concept, because they would form the basis of a character's existence, they would be the source from which a character and their aspects descended from, it would clearly not just be mid-godly, but high godly since it would fit the "along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence" since it would quite literally be one of the most fundamental aspects of a character's existence, excluding things such as their place within the narrative, or a greater and more expansive concept even though I don't agree that it would be beyond it regen wise but thats a whole other can of worms

 

[Antvasima]

Given that it is just a local concept, it still allows a character to recover from the surrounding reality structure, which is not nearly as impressive.