Honkaiverse - Conceptual manipulation

[Shiroiyo]

The purpose of this thread is to revise the conceptual manipulation of Honkai Impact 3rd and Honkai: Star Rail, re-establishing some things along the way.

The Imaginary:

First, we need to take a look at Imaginary within the Honkaiverse, one of the first things we are told about this is that it is the law of the universe, the place where all essences and origins are formed, the origin of truth, universe and the birth of all creation. Stigma Space as an Imaginary Space is clearly stated to be the world of ideas.

Now, let’s talk about the definitions of concepts in the series, here we have Hare; she was created as a stigma(Form) through Project Stigma, and exists as an Imaginary concept, a conceptual existence, we would also get a lot of information on the nature of Stigmata.. Not only are they stated to be abstract concepts, they are blatantly non-physical as demonstrated here, and as ideas have the power to shape reality. In Honkai: Star Rail we have paths, which are concepts a part of Imaginary, also capable of affecting reality. We also quite literally have an imaginary leaf.. it is not a common leaf as it isn’t a part of any plant, but rather something abstract. Based on these statements, we can infer that the Imaginary Space is an abstract realm and the foundation upon which reality is built, Path/Ideas/Forms are Imaginary concepts shaping reality.

Participation:

I will prove that Imaginary and Paths function as definers of the things that participate in them. Recently in Honkai: Star Rail, we got the information that the Path of Voracity had a concept removed from it, this affected all creations of the Path simultaneously.

This is relevant as feats like these are qualified to be type 1 in this wiki, after all we were shown that a Path (concept) being changed (having a concept removed from it) affected all objects of the Voracity (All creations of Voracity losing their taste buds). One might bring a scan I used in the beginning of this thread to debunk type 1 as Hare stated that reality can change concepts and that would be an anti-feat for it, that is fair, but I will bring that Hare isn’t even sure of it to begin with as she particularly never saw it happen and can’t even confirm it… so this shouldn’t be taken as last word, what we can however is take a look at the other information we have on this subject and it is what we will be doing next.

Superiority and Independence:

We are told that Stigmata (Img Space) is presented as the outside world, being the only true thing to exist, and anything else being a mere shadow of it. This is oddly consistent with how ontology, the fundamental nature (essence) of all real objects is also stated to be a shadow of the Imaginary, this also can be seen somewhat with Hare, due to the instability of her existence, she would simply disappear from reality and return to the Imaginary Space, implying her true existence is always there and what we see in the game is just a projection. Based on current evidence, the real space (reality/physical plane) is an imperfect reflection containing only the physical manifestations of the abstractions that exist in the Imaginary space.

Regarding independence, I have already established that the physical world (real space) in the cosmology is simply a shadow of the Imaginary Space, since everything in physical reality is a projection of something from there, so by all means destroying the physical objects in reality should have no effect on the Imaginary Space itself. This is very easy to prove, Irontomb destroys the entire physical world as evidenced by the fact that the entire real cosmos was erased, which clearly had no effect on the Imaginary space as Cyrene and the Trailblazer could escape there. If you are still confused about the whole Real x Imaginary and Irontomb topic, you can read this thread… With that said, everything we have seen so far provides strong evidence that Imaginary concepts are type 1 as they predate and shape reality, reality participates in it as a change in the concept affects all things participating in it, while destroying the entire reality has no effect on the Imaginary.

Who gets what?

First, all of this crt should go into an explanation blog after grace. Imaginary Concepts become a Type 1 concept. Aeons get their high-godly regeneration back and their concept stuff is upgraded accordingly, Herrscher’s authorities (Not their bodies) become AE1 and are upgraded to CM1, the only exception to this is HoFin, Senti and Corruption.. They get AE1 for both body and authority, the reason for the latter two Herrschers is because they have some unconventional ability from their authorities or just have an extra context, for Senti.. The previous era Herrscher of Sentience had no physical form as it exists as just some kind of mist capable of taking people’s minds, in CE Senti temporarily stole Fu Hua’s body but later gave it back to her, becoming a disembodied consciousness in the process, as for Corruption, it is similar to PE Senti, because of that they are still AE1, just not one based on CM. P&A/Resistances are updated accordingly.

Staff Votes:

@TheGreatJedi13 (Agrees with CM2 Paths, neutral on Stigma)

 

[Mbpoops]

Agree ow let me fight eugiri

 

[KingOfDarknessBelow]

Following

 

[Deadplayer1995]

Wow, Finally not a downgrade thread

 

[Vietthai96]

This is the 4th Honkai CRT, so i'm gonna close this until other CRTs concludes

Edit: 3 Honkai CRTs are the Keqing 11C downgrade, two other threads from @PlungingThroughTime for Imaginary Barrier and the Retry ability

 

[Mbpoops]

This is the 4th Honkai CRT, so i'm gonna close this until other CRTs concludes

Edit: 3 Honkai CRTs are the Keqing 11C downgrade, two other threads from @PlungingThroughTime for Imaginary Barrier and the Retry ability

could you like ping staff for the 11A thread then because like i mean theres 2 votes so far but ive asked other staff and no one has responded for like a week

 

[Vietthai96]

could you like ping staff for the 11A thread then because like i mean theres 2 votes so far but ive asked other staff and no one has responded for like a week

Get me the link, i lost it bruhh

 

[Mbpoops]

Get me the link, i lost it bruhh

HONKAI 11-A DOWNGRADE RAAAAAAAHHH

Hi. No i am not joking. 11-A downgrade. So for context, there was a collab between Genshin impact and Honkai Impact 3rd involving characters from both verses. Currently we have only one profile for the collab which is Keqing, who scales to Low 1-C for fighting Yae Sakura, a character from Hi3...

vsbattles.com

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

This is the 4th Honkai CRT, so i'm gonna close this until other CRTs concludes

Edit: 3 Honkai CRTs are the Keqing 11C downgrade, two other threads from @PlungingThroughTime for Imaginary Barrier and the Retry ability

The 11C Downgrade concluded so this thread can continue then. I'll get the popcorn. Thoughts on the CRT

 

[Hecky2222]

This is the 4th Honkai CRT, so i'm gonna close this until other CRTs concludes

Edit: 3 Honkai CRTs are the Keqing 11C downgrade, two other threads from @PlungingThroughTime for Imaginary Barrier and the Retry ability

doing anything but accepting my req in cord

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

doing anything but accepting my req in cord

Accept my req on Discord rn to spite @Hecky2222

 

[Vietthai96]

Accept my req on Discord rn to spite @Hecky2222

What req?

 

[Mbpoops]

hop on dbog

 

[Hecky2222]

What req?

friend req, bro is js having amnesia

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

What req?

 

[Maniaunavailable]

following, this better not have 12 pages when I come back!

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

This is the 4th Honkai CRT, so i'm gonna close this until other CRTs concludes

Edit: 3 Honkai CRTs are the Keqing 11C downgrade, two other threads from @PlungingThroughTime for Imaginary Barrier and the Retry ability

There's like 2 other of mine as well... 3 if you include the staff thread.

One of them has been around for 2 months btw cuz staff is just not voting...

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

There's like 3 other of mine as well...?

One of them has been around for 2 months btw cuz staff is just not voting...

HI3 and HSR dont share crt limits

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

HI3 and HSR dont share crt limits

oh. cool. mb then

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Why exactly do Aeons gain High-Godly regen again?

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Agree with the thread anyway.

I've been saying for quite a while that the Imaginary should be CM1 and this thus extends to Paths. I was just not familiar enough with Honkai 3rd to get it going.

 

[Eseseso]

Was wondering why they weren't already type 2 at minimum, but yeah type 1 makes sense for OP's reasons

 

[SuperNova55555]

I’ll look at this later

 

[Mbpoops]

I’ll look at this later

Please dont

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Wow, Finally not a downgrade thread

bro has been here for 4 years and thats his 3rd comment. how.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Stigma Space as an Imaginary Space is clearly stated to be the world of ideas.

Now, let’s talk about the definitions of concepts in the series, here we have Hare; she was created as a stigma(Form) through Project Stigma, and exists as an Imaginary concept, a conceptual existence, we would also get a lot of information on the nature of Stigmata.. Not only are they stated to be abstract concepts, they are blatantly non-physical as demonstrated here, and as ideas have the power to shape reality.

Not sure what this adds, because it can’t be that you think Stigma descending into Reality is remotely anything like a universal of sorts. That it’s conceptual, that’s fine, but these aren’t the principles of anything.

Also the last sentence is out of context and has little to do with conceptual manipulation. You can read this part if you want, but it should be clear even to an outsider that it has nothing to do with what OP is talking about.

I will prove that Imaginary and Paths function as definers of the things that participate in them. Recently in Honkai: Star Rail, we got the information that the Path of Voracity had a concept removed from it, this affected all creations of the Path simultaneously.

This is relevant as feats like these are qualified to be type 1 in this wiki, after all we were shown that a Path (concept) being changed (having a concept removed from it) affected all objects of the Voracity (All creations of Voracity losing their taste buds). One might bring a scan I used in the beginning of this thread to debunk type 1 as Hare stated that reality can change concepts and that would be an anti-feat for it, that is fair, but I will bring that Hare isn’t even sure of it to begin with as she particularly never saw it happen and can’t even confirm it… so this shouldn’t be taken as last word, what we can however is take a look at the other information we have on this subject and it is what we will be doing next.

Paths and Forms in Stigma Space aren’t related to each other. I’m not sure where you’re even getting this correlation from.

And the former isn’t CM1 exclusive, it’s also applicable to CM2.

We are told that Stigmata (Img Space) is presented as the outside world, being the only true thing to exist, and anything else being a mere shadow of it. This is oddly consistent with how ontology, the fundamental nature (essence) of all real objects is also stated to be a shadow of the Imaginary, this also can be seen somewhat with Hare, due to the instability of her existence, she would simply disappear from reality and return to the Imaginary Space, implying her true existence is always there and what we see in the game is just a projection. Based on current evidence, the real space (reality/physical plane) is an imperfect reflection containing only the physical manifestations of the abstractions that exist in the Imaginary space.

I can’t tell if you’re genuine with this. I won’t even entertain the Otto part because the entire argument is so unserious, that it would be unserious to address it in-itself.

Secondly, the analogy is misused, people don’t actually participate in Stigma. Which should be obvious. I mean firstly, it’s not coherent for a concept to descend to physicality as such, because she literally does, you’re just taking statements out of context again. The whole point is the reversal of Real and Imaginary in that arc. So humans go to Imaginary Space and Stigma descend to Real Space. And secondly, a major plot point of the arc is that mfs genuinely don’t have Stigmata. That’s why humanity was turned into a dream. So what are these humans existing with lol? And like, what about the part where they have to be turned into the Stigmata themselves? A particular becoming it’s own universal? Ridiculous.

Omg bro look, alter ego CM1!! Don’t worry about her being literally just a physical being whilst in Real Space that goes and fights mfs like any other human! She was called a “Form” so I’m allowed to ignore literally all holistic meaning and take all of these allegories out of context!
Ay bro @PlungingThroughTime , I know you care about the series being interpreted correctly more than anything. So don’t just ignore this pure misinformation

First, all of this crt should go into an explanation blog after grace. Imaginary Concepts become a Type 1 concept. Aeons get their high-godly regeneration back and their concept stuff is upgraded accordingly, Herrscher’s authorities (Not their bodies) become AE1 and are upgraded to CM1, the only exception to this is HoFin, Senti and Corruption.. They get AE1 for both body and authority, the reason for the latter two Herrschers is because they have some unconventional ability from their authorities or just have an extra context, for Senti.. The previous era Herrscher of Sentience had no physical form as it exists as just some kind of mist capable of taking people’s minds, in CE Senti temporarily stole Fu Hua’s body but later gave it back to her, becoming a disembodied consciousness in the process, as for Corruption, it is similar to PE Senti, because of that they are still AE1, just not one based on CM. P&A/Resistances are updated accordingly.

I’m fine with CM2 for Paths. In that the Path Concept relates to the participants of the Path through Imaginary Energy, but that the Path itself is also just the summation of that Imaginary Energy as well, and ergo contingent on the Imaginary. Because now we have to suppose that the Path Concept can exist without it’s own Path, but this is literally implied nowhere to be the case, because the concept in and of itself is created in the ascension of an Aeon.

I mean, it’s pretty obvious that is the case because we literally see it happen with Irontomb. The Path of Erudition is literally destroyed by affecting all constants of the Erudition (intelligent life), which is incoherent with CM1, because it is not contingent on its participants. It’s also not even contingent on the Aeon because we explicitly know a Path can exist without an Aeon and that an Aeon can even be directed against its own Path to kill it.

It’s also narratively consistent for this to be the case because it’s thematically appropriate for the Paths (Philosophies) to be contingent on the observer, so the Path dies out when there is noone to carry the philosophy.

Lygus: Just kidding. What I mean to say is that time, space, matter... all concepts exist solely because we perceive them. This is called the "Erudition." Without it, the universe would merely be a chaotic book, written by chance, yet unread by anyone.

Ay bru, I mean, Lygus seems pretty explicitly in line with my interpretation. Hmm. Wonder why.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Oh yea, not too many scans on my end because I found the argument too ridiculous to take seriously. If any mod wants them though, I can substantiate every single claim.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

I’m fine with CM2 for Paths. In that the Path Concept relates to the participants of the Path through Imaginary Energy, but that the Path itself is also just the summation of that Imaginary Energy as well, and ergo contingent on the Imaginary. Because now we have to suppose that the Path Concept can exist without it’s own Path, but this is literally implied nowhere to be the case, because the concept in and of itself is created in the ascension of an Aeon

Disagree with this. When Welt says this, it seems more to me that he is implying that Aeons cannot deviate from their Path once established. Which is what the Primium Mobile is.

Additionally, of course the Concept can exist without the Path because it already originates from the Imaginary. So when an Aeon/Path "carves out" from the Imaginary and reshapes it into their image, if a Path supposedly fell, said Concept would go back to what it was in the Imaginary. An Aeon appropriates a portion of the Imaginary and crystallizes a philosophical principle or a Concept into a distinct Path.

If Remembrance was wiped, memory would no longer be a foundation of existence. But the concept of recollection would still exist since the Imaginary created it. The "act" of recollection however would ontologically change and the universe would lose the ontological layer of memory.

The Path of Erudition is literally destroyed by affecting all constants of the Erudition (intelligent life), which is incoherent with CM1, because it is not contingent on its participants. It’s also not even contingent on the Aeon because we explicitly know a Path can exist without an Aeon and that an Aeon can even be directed against its own Path to kill it.

That's also not really true either. The fall of Erudition would result in the world becoming chaotic. Not the other way around. This bidirectionality was not established.

It’s also narratively consistent for this to be the case because it’s thematically appropriate for the Paths (Philosophies) to be contingent on the observer, so the Path dies out when there is noone to carry the philosophy.

I am also not sure that's in line with anything. Even if Aeons fall, Paths continue. Propagation and Voracity are Paths that do not have Pathstriders. And I am sure bedbugs and other monsters don't really count as observers.

Ay bru, I mean, Lygus seems pretty explicitly in line with my interpretation. Hmm. Wonder why.

I also don't think thats what he means there.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Disagree with this. When Welt says this, it seems more to me that he is implying that Aeons cannot deviate from their Path once established. Which is what the Primium Mobile is.

Unrelated to my comment.

Additionally, of course the Concept can exist without the Path because it already originates from the Imaginary. So when an Aeon/Path "carves out" from the Imaginary and reshapes it into their image, if a Path supposedly fell, said Concept would go back to what it was in the Imaginary. An Aeon appropriates a portion of the Imaginary and crystallizes a philosophical principle or a Concept into a distinct Path.

Not true. Because the concepts of a Path are the concept-as-relating to the Path, not the concept-itself. Otherwise changing “appetite” would change all appetite, not only those of Voracity. But if it took the concept from the Imaginary, which mind you, you have no proof aside from conjecture that it pre-exists, it would require them to take appetite-itself which they don’t.

That's also not really true either. The fall of Erudition would result in the world becoming chaotic. Not the other way around. This bidirectionality was not established.

Nono. It’s exactly the case actually.

Form the databank as well:

Unlike other Lord Ravagers, Irontomb's invasions require no physical presence, leaving behind almost no eyewitnesses. Its presence is inferred from the ruins of devastated civilizations: technology turns into viruses, worlds plunge into darkness, and everything deemed "advanced" becomes a cold grave.
It only appears in highly developed worlds. Some Intellitron theorists believe Irontomb is the inverse of the Erudition, a reversal of all calculations and logic. Its "Destruction" resembles a phenomenon more than aesthetics: a corruption and subversion of inorganic logic, a collapse of all intelligent behavior.

Wait, why do you think Irontomb wanted Nous to turn all calculations towards Destruction lol? If my interpretation isn’t the case, literally the entire Amphoreus arc cannot follow.

I am also not sure that's in line with anything. Even if Aeons fall, Paths continue. Propagation and Voracity are Paths that do not have Pathstriders. And I am sure bedbugs and other monsters don't really count as observers.

Huh??? The monsters are the primary Pathstriders like what? Oroboros is literally a monster and theyre the AEON. ANY intelligent life can be a Pathstrider, Emanator or Aeon.

I also don't think thats what he means there.

No. Its exactly what he means. Which is why I assume you didn’t posit a counter-interpretation.

Like I’m confused, this is literally the entire point of Amphoreus, Nous and Irontomb. Thematically also of the series itself lmao. Erudition is the act of beings observing creating Knowledge Singularities and Circles of Knowledge, Nous specifically being the biggest Singularity of them all. So Irontomb directs all their calculations towards Destruction through viruses and causing their observation to cease and thus Erudition falls, and thus the Universe turns to incalculable chaos.

 

[KirbyFan03]

Now let me pit them against random New Gods!

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Ay bro @PlungingThroughTime , I know you care about the series being interpreted correctly more than anything. So don’t just ignore this pure misinformation

Not taking the bait lol.
Fr tho, your point about Veliona is moot, she doesn't descend to physicality, the whole point is that she takes control of Seele's already physical body. If you want to argue battlesuits and hair colour show Veliona descending to physicality, then we're going to have to talk about Honkai Energy being used by HoV to create battlesuits, and why HoV changes Kiana's eye colour.
They're just aesthetic changes used by the devs to communicate who's in control to the audience. We can just simply say Honkai Energy changes appearance and also can create the weapons Veliona uses.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Not taking the bait lol.
Fr tho, your point about Veliona is moot, she doesn't descend to physicality, the whole point is that she takes control of Seele's already physical body. If you want to argue battlesuits and hair colour show Veliona descending to physicality, then we're going to have to talk about Honkai Energy being used by HoV to create battlesuits, and why HoV changes Kiana's eye colour.
They're just aesthetic changes used by the devs to communicate who's in control to the audience. We can just simply say Honkai Energy changes appearance and also can create the weapons Veliona uses.

But now the issue is that you have to holistically insinuate that Velonia “taking over” is meant to imply an embodiment of sorts of a Form (whatever OP was larping about), but that’s obviously not the case, because there is a switch, even if maybe mental. (To however it is cohesive for a CM1 to function like this) I mean. We literally know it’s not due to Misteln but that’s not the issue here. You’re being tagged here cuz I know you don’t think the Forms here are actual universal concepts, or even remotely related. I mean, you would’ve corrected me on the other stuff if you thought so. So I’m telling you to speak up lil bro

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

But now the issue is that you have to holistically insinuate that Velonia “taking over” is meant to imply an embodiment of sorts of a Form (whatever OP was larping about)

With Veliona specifically, she's called a Form in one line and we get no elaboration. The overarching context is that Misteln pulled Veliona, a completely different soul actualised by Stigmata, away from Seele's body.
'??? (Hare): It's truly rare to see someone who is willing to share their body with a completely different soul.' - Hare's statement here is already inconsistent with how Veliona came to be, which is Stigmata awakening. Veliona and Seele have explicitly not always been together, Veliona was actualised via Seele's own traumatic event, so I'm going to cast doubt on Hare here.
There is no body sharing, it's Seele's body.

This could've been in Imaginary Space, in the real world, etc.

, but that’s obviously not the case, because there is a switch, even if maybe mental. (To however it is cohesive for a CM1 to function like this) I mean. We literally know it’s not due to Misteln but that’s not the issue here. You’re being tagged here cuz I know you don’t think the Forms here are actual universal concepts, or even remotely related.

Being perfectly real, I think there's an argument for it, it's just iffy. Hare represents the idea of a Schariac, which is why she looks so similar to Cecilia. The Will of Stigmata represents the idea of a Kaslana, and even comments on all the Kaslana's being similar in terms of personality, self-sacrificing n'all that.

So there clearly is a consistent idea of a Kaslana, an idea of a Schariac, stuff like that at play. It's just how you want to argue that exists within pre-existing ideas and mechanics of Hi3. Not to mention the whole idea of Stigma space being in imaginary space, being accessible only through dreams, etc.

I mean, you would’ve corrected me on the other stuff if you thought so. So I’m telling you to speak up lil bro

I don't think this is a good argument lol. The actual reason is that I'm not confident enough in:
1 - CM.
2 - Project Stigma and that convoluted mess. I've even made several comments that I'm not confident in terms of Project Stigma and need to go back through it to form a proper take-away. I'm particularly more rusty on Part 1.5 too, so that doesn't help.
I can tell you anything about Part 1 from the back of my hand, I've even said where dialogue comes from just from the dialogue (non-descript Imaginary Tree stuff) accompanied with a black screen. This? Not my cup of tea.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Being perfectly real, I think there's an argument for it, it's just iffy. Hare represents the idea of a Schariac, which is why she looks so similar to Cecilia. The Will of Stigmata represents the idea of a Kaslana, and even comments on all the Kaslana's being similar in terms of personality, self-sacrificing n'all that.

So there clearly is a consistent idea of a Kaslana, an idea of a Schariac, stuff like that at play. It's just how you want to argue that exists within pre-existing ideas and mechanics of Hi3. Not to mention the whole idea of Stigma space being in imaginary space, being accessible only through dreams, etc.

No I get this part, but in itself it has no correlation with how a universal works, because other than the Stigma being some generalized mental space of Stigma Holders, pretty much every other aspect of it is unrelated. And I can even list out all the issues too, if needed of course. For what it’s worth, the entirety of what Project Stigma does is a contradiction.

'??? (Hare): It's truly rare to see someone who is willing to share their body with a completely different soul.' - Hare's statement here is already inconsistent with how Veliona came to be, which is Stigmata awakening. Veliona and Seele have explicitly not always been together, Veliona was actualised via Seele's own traumatic event, so I'm going to cast doubt on Hare here.
There is no body sharing, it's Seele's body.

Huh? What? Body sharing is not mutually exclusive with it being Seele’s body. I’m not sure what the point is here.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Not true. Because the concepts of a Path are the concept-as-relating to the Path, not the concept-itself. Otherwise changing “appetite” would change all appetite, not only those of Voracity. But if it took the concept from the Imaginary, which mind you, you have no proof aside from conjecture that it pre-exists, it would require them to take appetite-itself which they don’t.

The distinction between "appetite itself" and "Voracity's appetite" assumes that Paths are only interpretations of pre-existing concepts rather than concepts instantiated from the Imaginary. The question is whether Paths are derivative representations or ontological concepts. If Paths are described as principles that define reality and originate from Imaginary Energy, then creating a Path is not merely adopting a philosophy but establishing a new conceptual law irregardless of the Concept's origin .

Nono. It’s exactly the case actually.

That doesn't help your case at all I believe. If anything it establishes that Erudition is holding the logic of all life together. The video explicitly states that if Erudition falls, all life will be broken apart.

The Erudition's thoughts aren't just calculations, but "Instants" that anchor down the universe.

Form the databank as well:

Wait, why do you think Irontomb wanted Nous to turn all calculations towards Destruction lol? If my interpretation isn’t the case, literally the entire Amphoreus arc cannot follow.

Irontomb was used as a neuron for Nous once. Lygus would force Irontomb to reach Nous and use it as a head.

"Zandar": Isn't that exactly why it's called a tomb? Because it only houses the remains of what once was.
"Zandar": Let me give you an example from a story you're familiar with.
"Zandar": A sage from the Grove once conducted an experiment. He took a chimera embryo, removed its head before maturity, and continuously stimulated its body to make the chimera believe it still had a brain, then nurtured it in an ichor vessel.
"Zandar": Remarkably, this chimera regrew its skull, but it was completely hollow inside. It had reserved a space for a brain it never possessed.
"Zandar": The experiment was over. The sage had assumed this shell would perish once the stimulation ceased. Unfortunately, he was wrong.
"Zandar": Driven by instincts, the chimera's body... seized the sage's head.

"Zandar": Yes. Irontomb is a headless giant, and to become whole, instinct will drive it to seize another head.
"Zandar": ...Nous, the Erudition.

I think you're interpreting the attacks on technology incorrectly. Irontomb isn't attacking advanced civilizations because destroying technology somehow damages Nous. It attacks them because advanced civilizations are the expression of Erudition's principle: calculation, logic, and intelligence. The Databank describes Irontomb's phenomenon as a reversal of calculations and logic, where technology becomes viruses and intelligent systems collapse. The target is not the physical objects themselves but the underlying principle of organized intelligence that Erudition represents.

This is also why Irontomb's ultimate goal is to reach Nous and transform Their calculations into Destruction. It is not replacing Erudition by destroying its followers. it is attempting to invert Erudition at its source.

Huh??? The monsters are the primary Pathstriders what? Oroboros is literally a monster and theyre the AEON.

I mean Aeons are not humans either. They are just intelligent beings. Some are closer to humanity than others. Also, monsters of a Path aren't inherently Pathstriders I believe. They are called "Creations of Voracity" for example. But anyway. While I agree with you after the last patch that quantum observation and all that plays a significant role in the cosmos, I don't agree it extends to the Paths.

Editing to mention that Order for example created the universe and humanity if the legends are to be believed. I doubt there were any Pathstriders back then. It was some ancient Aeons and nothingness.

No. Its exactly what he means. Which is why I assume you didn’t posit a counter-interpretation.

Like I’m confused, this is literally the entire point of Amphoreus, Nous and Irontomb. Thematically also of the series itself lmao. Erudition is the act of beings observing creating Knowledge Singularities and Circles of Knowledge, Nous specifically being the biggest Singularity of them all. So Irontomb directs all their calculations towards Destruction through viruses and causing their observation to cease and thus Erudition falls, and thus the Universe turns to incalculable chao

I don't think the issue is whether Irontomb attacks observation or calculation. It clearly does. The issue is what that means. Irontomb is not causing Erudition to fall because it destroys physical examples of intelligence. It's just is attempting to invert the underlying principle of Erudition by making the process of calculation/knowledge production lead toward Destruction instead. The reason it targets civilizations and their technology is because they are the largest expressions of Erudition's principle, not because they are merely objects connected to Nous.

Also, Erudition isn't simply "beings observing". Observation is the method through which knowledge is produced. The Path itself is the principle governing that pursuit of knowledge. Irontomb's Destruction Equation is dangerous because it attacks the equation/process underlying that pursuit, turning calculation into a destructive endpoint. That's why the goal is Nous, the ultimate embodiment of Erudition's calculations, rather than simply destroying random civilizations. Do you remember our conversation on how Nous selects Emanators? Based on the right questions?

I'll bring it up again just in case.

Key of Inspiration - Level 1​

"Eureka!!"

Key of Knowledge - Level 2​

"I had a dream of molecules coiling up into a loop like a snake biting its own tail. I woke up realizing that this is the answer I've been looking for all along!"

Key of Wisdom - Level 3​

"The Erudition does not have answers to the universe, but it will teach you how to ask the right questions."


I won't lie, it's a very natural assumption to make. But I think the important distinction is that Irontomb isn't trying to make Erudition fall because it destroys observers or technology as external manifestations. Lygus' entire philosophy is that Erudition itself is a limiting system because it turns the universe into something calculable and predictable. Irontomb's purpose is to invert that process: instead of calculations producing knowledge and predictability, calculations become a path toward randomness and Destruction. The attacks on advanced civilizations are the application of that inverted equation, not the reason Erudition is affected.

Furthermore, remember this:

Nous hopes to understand the universe and solve all of its mysteries. THEIR extrapolations anchor countless "Instants," each one serving as a turning point in cosmic destiny. To mortals, these "Instants" are not single moments, but long journeys... Gatherings of countless events.

Later on we find out through that "Instants" are in fact Nous' brainwaves traveling across the cosmos "anchoring" the universe. These anchors are what Lygus was talking about and why he thought Paths and Erudition in turn were prisons.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Huh? What? Body sharing is not mutually exclusive with it being Seele’s body. I’m not sure what the point is here.

It's just more nitpicky than anything tbh. The distinction between two souls inhabiting the same body as if Veliona has been there the whole time was worth mentioning to me.

No I get this part, but in itself it has no correlation with how a universal works, because other than the Stigma being some generalized mental space of Stigma Holders, pretty much every other aspect of it is unrelated. And I can even list out all the issues too, if needed of course. For what it’s worth, the entirety of what Project Stigma does is a contradiction.

I believe that's why the argument is being made with forms instead.

 

[SuperNova55555]

The distinction between "appetite itself" and "Voracity's appetite" assumes that Paths are only interpretations of pre-existing concepts rather than concepts instantiated from the Imaginary. The question is whether Paths are derivative representations or ontological concepts. If Paths are described as principles that define reality and originate from Imaginary Energy, then creating a Path is not merely adopting a philosophy but establishing a new conceptual law.

Not sure how this relates to the point at all. That they establish something is literally not something I’ve disagreed with. So I’m not sure why it has to be mentioned.

Additionally, of course the Concept can exist without the Path because it already originates from the Imaginary. So when an Aeon/Path "carves out" from the Imaginary and reshapes it into their image, if a Path supposedly fell, said Concept would go back to what it was in the Imaginary. An Aeon appropriates a portion of the Imaginary and crystallizes a philosophical principle or a Concept into a distinct Path.

The point was whether or not a concept exists independently of the Path. So however your comment relates.

That doesn't help your case at all I believe. If anything it establishes that Erudition is holding the logic of all life together. The video explicitly states that if Erudition falls, all life will be broken apart.

No… it states if the constants (here, intelligent life) fails, then the universe fails.

And to the thing you quoted, of course the Instants anchor the Universe. Because that’s quantum collapse, leading to a singular future. Yao Guang already explained this lol. And we even used it against Asat Pramad.

I think you're interpreting the attacks on technology incorrectly. Irontomb isn't attacking advanced civilizations because destroying technology somehow damages Nous. It attacks them because advanced civilizations are the expression of Erudition's principle: calculation, logic, and intelligence. The Databank describes Irontomb's phenomenon as a reversal of calculations and logic, where technology becomes viruses and intelligent systems collapse. The target is not the physical objects themselves but the underlying principle of organized intelligence that Erudition represents.

This is also why Irontomb's ultimate goal is to reach Nous and transform Their calculations into Destruction. It is not replacing Erudition by destroying its followers. it is attempting to invert Erudition at its source.

No… it reaches Nous because Nous has created the single biggest Knowledge Singularity. We know that Paths can exist without an Aeon, so killing Nous doesn’t actually do the job. It’s why he has to target all intelligent life as well, because each of them are individual constants just like how Nous is.

Again, I’ll quote Lygus:

Lygus: Just kidding. What I mean to say is that time, space, matter... all concepts exist solely because we perceive them. This is called the "Erudition." Without it, the universe would merely be a chaotic book, written by chance, yet unread by anyone.

The underlying principle you’re talking about is the very inter-relation of intelligent beings with each other. It is the act of observation that anchors particular Singularities/Circles, which is why Lygus wanted to kill Nous.

I don't think the issue is whether Irontomb attacks observation or calculation. It clearly does. The issue is what that means. Irontomb is not causing Erudition to fall because it destroys physical examples of intelligence. It's just is attempting to invert the underlying principle of Erudition by making the process of calculation/knowledge production lead toward Destruction instead. The reason it targets civilizations and their technology is because they are the largest expressions of Erudition's principle, not because they are merely objects connected to Nous.

Of course the code leading it to destruction destroys the Universe… because it means the Universe is observed for Destruction. And all intelligent life disappears as well. Because then what does this message even address, at least pertaining to CM1? For we know that the thing that reverses calculations is explicitly a memetic virus controlling the intellectual capability of beings. You would have to import additional unfounded facts to purport your interpretation when we know exactly how the attack works.

Irontomb's Destruction Equation is dangerous because it attacks the equation/process underlying that pursuit, turning calculation into a destructive endpoint.

The process being the calculative faculty of life.

That's why the goal is Nous, the ultimate embodiment of Erudition's calculations, rather than simply destroying random civilizations

Of course. Because Nous is the single greatest observer. So if it isnt destroyed, the Universe remains anchored to their calculations due to it having the greatest Circle of Knowledge in the Universe.

Later on we find out through that "Instants" are in fact Nous' brainwaves traveling across the cosmos "anchoring" the universe. These anchors are what Lygus was talking about and why he thought Paths and Erudition in turn were prisons.

The anchor being the Circle of Knowledge… with the Instants in particular being wherein all possibilties have been observed, collapsing the Universe into a singular future. We literally did this to Asat this patch. Please don’t keep taking stuff out of context, when it should just be read holistically.

 

[Voidnether]

Not sure how this relates to the point at all. That they establish something is literally not something I’ve disagreed with. So I’m not sure why it has to be mentioned.


The point was whether or not a concept exists independently of the Path. So however your comment relates.


No… it states if the constants (here, intelligent life) fails, then the universe fails.

And to the thing you quoted, of course the Instants anchor the Universe. Because that’s quantum collapse, leading to a singular future. Yao Guang already explained this lol. And we even used it against Asat Pramad.


No… it reaches Nous because Nous has created the single biggest Knowledge Singularity. We know that Paths can exist without an Aeon, so killing Nous doesn’t actually do the job. It’s why he has to target all intelligent life as well, because each of them are individual constants just like how Nous is.

Again, I’ll quote Lygus:

The underlying principle you’re talking about is the very inter-relation of intelligent beings with each other. It is the act of observation that anchors particular Singularities/Circles, which is why Lygus wanted to kill Nous.


Of course the code leading it to destruction destroys the Universe… because it means the Universe is observed for Destruction. And all intelligent life disappears as well. Because then what does this message even address, at least pertaining to CM1? For we know that the thing that reverses calculations is explicitly a memetic virus controlling the intellectual capability of beings. You would have to import additional unfounded facts to purport your interpretation when we know exactly how the attack works.

The process being the calculative faculty of life.


Of course. Because Nous is the single greatest observer. So if it isnt destroyed, the Universe remains anchored to their calculations due to it having the greatest Circle of Knowledge in the Universe.


The anchor being the Circle of Knowledge… with the Instants in particular being wherein all possibilties have been observed, collapsing the Universe into a singular future. We literally did this to Asat this patch. Please don’t keep taking stuff out of context, when it should just be read holistically.

I'm like 100% sure Lygus abandoned this idea completely, for Irontomb to target all organic and inorganic life across the cosmos then that's just no different from Anti-Organic Equation by Rubert 1 and Rubert 2 and we know it failed anyway for both of them.

The code leading to Destruction, destroyed the universe as an aftermath because when Lygus decided to materialize Irontomb: He took the third way of killing an Aeon and that is to turn Nous from Erudition hence the calculation is about Destruction, the only reason this worked against Nous originally is because Trailblaze isn't included in the Fourth Instant variable yet atleast before The Herta made it a variable.

Irontomb targeting all cosmic life is if Lygus meant for it to remain as a Scepter, and Lygus spreading the perfected Destruction Equation across the cosmos which is actually the original plan but as you can see from the story itself.. Yeah it didn't go that way, doesn't it?

Now, I don't really know how all this is an antifeat to CM1 since really CM1 in my definition is as simple as a concept that stands independent from the universe being destroyed and not to mention the line between Type 1 and Type 2 is very, very thin anyway when you look at other fiction's independence of getting it.. Excluding Destruction and Erudition, do you think Remembrance is a Type 1 concept since it's not affected by Irontomb's destruction of the cosmos and when Irontomb nearly destroyed the Path of Erudition as stated by The Herta?

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Prime Voidnether is back

 

[SuperNova55555]

I'm like 100% sure Lygus abandoned this idea completely, for Irontomb to target all organic and inorganic life across the cosmos then that's just no different from Anti-Organic Equation by Rubert 1 and Rubert 2 and we know it failed anyway for both of them.

It’s the same idea… they just failed because they couldn’t execute it properly. In fact, Rubert II was literally gonna self-coronate himself but he got slimed by Polka. Lol. Its literally the same exact thing.

The code leading to Destruction, destroyed the universe as an aftermath because when Lygus decided to materialize Irontomb: He took the third way of killing an Aeon and that is to turn Nous from Erudition hence the calculation is about Destruction, the only reason this worked against Nous originally is because Trailblaze isn't included in the Fourth Instant variable yet atleast before The Herta made it a variable.

Irontomb targeting all cosmic life is if Lygus meant for it to remain as a Scepter, and Lygus spreading the perfected Destruction Equation across the cosmos which is actually the original plan but as you can see from the story itself.. Yeah it didn't go that way, doesn't it?

Now, I don't really know how all this is an antifeat to CM1 since really CM1 in my definition is as simple as a concept that stands independent from the universe being destroyed and not to mention the line between Type 1 and Type 2 is very, very thin anyway when you look at other fiction's independence of getting it.. Excluding Destruction and Erudition, do you think Remembrance is a Type 1 concept since it's not affected by Irontomb's destruction of the cosmos and when Irontomb nearly destroyed the Path of Erudition as stated by The Herta?

Classic Nether yap. Not touching that.