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Fairy Tail Conceptual Manipulation Revisions

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Deceived3596

Deceived3596

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Introduction:

I’ve decided to go through and review all the Conceptual Manipulation abilities in the verse to see if they have the correct type of Conceptual Manipulation or not.

Premise:

There’s only two abilities in the verse which are categorized as Conceptual Manipulation. Memento Mori and the Space Between Time.

I’ll go through each ability and see if the type they’re assigned with are correct or not.

Memento Mori:

Mard Geer’s ultimate curse, and the one that’s supposedly capable of killing Zeref. Memento Mori is currently considered to have Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation through it being capable of “eliminating the very concepts of life and death” from someone.

This shouldn’t be Type 2 as it doesn’t manipulate the universal concepts of Life and Death, which is a prerequisite for Type 2. Rather, it removes one’s personal concepts of life and death, which causes them to exist in a state without life and death, which in turn causes them to be erased from existence. This would be Type 3. If this was actually Type 2, than when Mard Geer “eliminated the very concepts of life and death” with Memento Mori, the actual concepts themselves would be removed, and everyone in the verse that’s bounded by life and death would be erased from existence as that’s an entailment of those structure being removed.

With that said, Memento Mori needs to have its Conceptual Manipulation downgraded to Type 3 as it doesn’t fall under the prerequisites needed for Type 2, but does for Type 3.

Affected Profiles:

Mard Geer
Bloodman
Zeref Dragneel

Gray Fullbuster
Silver Fullbuster
Zeref Dragneel
Mavis Vermillion
August

Space Between Time:

An entirely separate dimension from the main Fairy Tail universe. The Space Between Time is considered to have Conceptual Manipulation of an unknown type. Because of this, we’ll have to find out what exact type the Space Between Time should be.

The only evidence provided on the profile is that it’s considered to be a “concept”, and that’s it. Since it’s just vaguely considered to be a concept, with zero extrapolation of that concept's range, sphere of influence etc. It would fall under Type 3 as Type 3 does include non-defined, or non-extrapolated on concepts like SBT.

Affected Profiles:

Zeref Dragneel
Acnologia

Zeref Dragneel
Acnologia
Mavis Vermillion
Natsu Dragneel

Voting:

Agree - @Zaratthustra, @SamanPatou, @DemonGodMitchAubin (Memento Mori), @Damage3245, @CloverDragon03 (Same as Mitch)

Disagree -

Neutral -
 
Last edited:
Deceived3596 said:
Memento Mori:

Mard Geer’s ultimate curse, and the one that’s supposedly capable of killing Zeref. Memento Mori is currently considered to have Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation through it being capable of “eliminating the very concepts of life and death” from someone.

This shouldn’t be Type 2 as it doesn’t manipulate the universal concepts of Life and Death, which is a prerequisite for Type 2. Rather, it removes one’s personal concepts of life and death, which causes them to exist in a state without life and death, which in turn causes them to be erased from existence. This would be Type 3. If this was actually Type 2, than when Mard Geer “eliminated the very concepts of life and death” with Memento Mori, the actual concepts themselves would be removed, and everyone in the verse that’s bounded by life and death would be erased from existence as that’s an entailment of those structure being removed.

With that said, Memento Mori needs to have its Conceptual Manipulation downgraded to Type 3 as it doesn’t fall under the prerequisites needed for Type 2, but does for Type 3.
Click to expand...
Where does the idea of Momento mori affecting only one's personal concepts of Life and Death come from? Based on his own statement he's affecting the entirety of both concepts; however, it's specified the effects only cover the range of the curse which has a limited aoe. So based on that it would still be type 2 but instead of concept destruction, it would be concept alteration as he's removing everything the curse hits from life and death.

Deceived3596 said:
Space Between Time:

An entirely separate dimension from the main Fairy Tail universe. The Space Between Time is considered to have Conceptual Manipulation of an unknown type. Because of this, we’ll have to find out what exact type the Space Between Time should be.

The only evidence provided on the profile is that it’s considered to be a “concept”, and that’s it. Since it’s just vaguely considered to be a concept, with zero extrapolation of that concept's range, sphere of influence etc. It would fall under Type 3 as Type 3 does include non-defined, or non-extrapolated on concepts like SBT.
Click to expand...
I agree with Mitch and Clover on this



Something that wasn't brought up here is Wendy and Irene's Conceptual Enchantments.

Irene taught Wendy how to enchant magic with the concept of Spiritual arts which uses Spirior which is similar to ethernano. Now I'm not exactly sure which type this would be per se due to Spirior being put on the same level as magic which is most likely a type 2 concept in the verse, but I'm not an expert, however, this would be a form of concept alteration as Wendy is adding the concept of Spiritual Arts to her and the others magic.

This would affect both Wendy, Irene, and I would make the argument that Zeref should get this as well considering Irene considered him a better enchanter and overall mage by a large margin than she was
 
Zackra1799 said:
Where does the idea of Momento mori affecting only one's personal concepts of Life and Death come from? Based on his own statement he's affecting the entirety of both concepts; however, it's specified the effects only cover the range of the curse which has a limited aoe. So based on that it would still be type 2 but instead of concept destruction, it would be concept alteration as he's removing everything the curse hits from life and death.
Click to expand...
That would make it inherently not Type 2 since the prerequisite is effecting the universal concept of an idea. In order for one to qualify for Type 2 conceptual manipulation you'd need to effect the entire universal concept for everyone as a whole.


Mard isn't deleting the concept of death from the universe but rather a single target so it'd be Type 3 due to effecting personal concepts. (I.E Zeref's concept of death, not the universes collective concept of death.)



SBT should definitely be Type 2 given that it's used to effect the concept of time on a Universal scale.
 
Zackra1799 said:
Where does the idea of Momento mori affecting only one's personal concepts of Life and Death come from? Based on his own statement he's affecting the entirety of both concepts; however, it's specified the effects only cover the range of the curse which has a limited aoe. So based on that it would still be type 2 but instead of concept destruction, it would be concept alteration as he's removing everything the curse hits from life and death.
Click to expand...
The fact it doesn't remove the very concepts of life and death from everyone, only those who are caught within the blast range of Memento Mori. He's affecting both concepts, just not the universal variety of those concepts, he's only affecting the personal concepts of life and death, that's why when he activates the ability it doesn't remove everyone's conception of life and death, causing them to be erased. No it wouldn't because of its limited range, you have to understand that the main, quantifiable difference between Type 3 and Type 2 is range, or its "sphere of influence". Those with Type 3 can only attack people's individual concepts, while with Type 2 you can manipulate the general concepts which define a specific property in reality (the concept of fire defining what fire is in all levels of reality for an example). Memento Mori doesn't manipulate those general concepts, it just manipulates the concepts of life and death for those who are caught in the blast radius of Memento Mori, which would just be Type 3.

Zackra1799 said:
Something that wasn't brought up here is Wendy and Irene's Conceptual Enchantments.
Click to expand...
Because neither character has Conceptual Manipulation on their profiles.

I'll type up the SBT shit later.
 
Deceived3596 said:
The fact it doesn't remove the very concepts of life and death from everyone, only those who are caught within the blast range of Memento Mori. He's affecting both concepts, just not the universal variety of those concepts, he's only affecting the personal concepts of life and death, that's why when he activates the ability it doesn't remove everyone's conception of life and death, causing them to be erased. No it wouldn't because of its limited range, you have to understand that the main, quantifiable difference between Type 3 and Type 2 is range, or its "sphere of influence". Those with Type 3 can only attack people's individual concepts, while with Type 2 you can manipulate the general concepts which define a specific property in reality (the concept of fire defining what fire is in all levels of reality for an example). Memento Mori doesn't manipulate those general concepts, it just manipulates the concepts of life and death for those who are caught in the blast radius of Memento Mori, which would just be Type 3.


Because neither character has Conceptual Manipulation on their profiles.

I'll type up the SBT shit later.
Click to expand...
Universal reach is not needed, otherwise most characters would lose this ability, and the difference between type 2 and 3 concepts and the "fundamental level" type 2 concepts are fundamental ,type 3 is "personal" in the sense of "characteristic", when type 2 concepts are destroyed or removed from the objects/reality they govern, this object/reality tends to disappear because it has lost something that acts as the foundation of its existence, memento mori is a very clear example of this where a person acts as the object/reality that the concepts of life and death govern, and when these concepts are removed from a person he disappears,i.e. it is a clear example of CM2
 
WTF said:
Universal reach is not needed, otherwise most characters would lose this ability, and the difference between type 2 and 3 concepts and the "fundamental level" type 2 concepts are fundamental ,type 3 is "personal" in the sense of "characteristic", when type 2 concepts are destroyed or removed from the objects/reality they govern, this object/reality tends to disappear because it has lost something that acts as the foundation of its existence, memento mori is a very clear example of this where a person acts as the object/reality that the concepts of life and death govern, and when these concepts are removed from a person he disappears,i.e. it is a clear example of CM2
Click to expand...
I don't mean "universal" as in a measurable distance in space, I mean "universal" as in the collective amount of a select property.

The Type 2 concept of fire doesn't have to exist throughout the universe for it to still be a Type 2 concept as it isn't dependent on range in that sense of the word.

Type 3 and Type 2 concepts are both "fundamental" as they're abstractions of specific notions, they just define, and govern properties on two separate levels. So I don't see the reason to bring up that fact when that's a prerequisite for being considered as concepts, regardless of type, in the first place.

Type 3 concepts are "personal" in the sense of being concepts which only defines one's personal existence, not anyone else's.

Yes, that's why this isn't Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation, as if it was eliminating the very concepts of life and death, which it's stated capable of doing, and if these supposed concepts reference the universal variety of concepts (ala Type 2). Then everyone who is bound by life and death would've been erased since he would've eliminated those universal concepts.
 
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