Honkaiverse - Conceptual manipulation

[Mbpoops]

I mean both are pretty obvious. But Voracity is even more. It's word for word.

Explain how it's not CM1 and it's CM2 instead WITHOUT it having the bidirectionality CM2 requires. Please.

because it doesnt prove the concept is independant from what it governs it just proves the concept is a universal

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

This stigmata space is confusion incarnate

Just put me on agree on CM type 2 for Path space. Neutral on Stigmata space

 

[Voidnether]

Wait if it's Path Space does that mean Irontomb lowkey jobbed

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

because it doesnt prove the concept is independant from what it governs it just proves the concept is a universal

The proof is that even when the entire universe was destroyed, the Paths and Aeons were unaffected. Even when IT infected all data and information and corrupted everything, Erudition didn't fall. Even when every memory was infected by IT, Remembrance didn't fall.

 

[Mbpoops]

aeons > hi3 due to interaction barrier lmao

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

The proof is that even when the entire universe was destroyed, the Paths and Aeons were unaffected. Even when IT infected all data and information and corrupted everything, Erudition didn't fall. Even when every memory was infected by IT, Remembrance didn't fall.

And I mean that it didn't change in any way. Paths manifest in realspace in whatever ways. But even when those things were altered and corrupted, it didn't do shit to them. So again, I REALLY don't understand where CM2 is coming from. It's frying me.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Also stop derailing

^^^

Issue is that not everyone has a Stigmata and therefore a corresponding Stigma Space. As such, Project Stigma aims to turn the humans themselves into Stigmata and allow for the creation of Forms in that way.

I don't think this is ever said. In fact, Misteln's power was awakening Stigmata in people around her and she couldn't control it, the people that couldn't awaken a stigmata died. Everyone has a stigmata, it's just that most can't awaken it.

For Hare particularly, her birth was anomalous in that when Cecilia Shariac died, her stigmata (which is a type of information present within her bloodline), broke the boundary between Imaginary and Real causing the Form (Hare) to descend into Reality.

Her 'descent into reality' is described as:

It first proved the descent of Ideas, as the byproduct of the Stigmata’s curse on the Schariac.

She is the idea of a Schariac, the non-existent form.

The above comment I linked is just to show that what descended is the Form itself. As not only is it never implied that Hare has some other hidden essence or whatever, but that she as the literal Form can be killed and then have the information of that Form even be used to clone her. This, with a lot of other problems that should be obvious (like not everyone having a Stigma), should be clear why its not actually CM1.

Simply 'dying' isn't the description - It's that when Project Stigma activates this'll happen. Your screenshot says this.

Project Stigma is already thoroughly intertwined with Imaginary Space and creating Forms.
This fits rather neatly under conceptual destruction and creation. I believe Project Stigma is able to do this because its central idea is merging Real Space into Imaginary Space, and its effects are clearly visible on the moon. I touch on this further below.

• Concept Destruction: The ability to destroy or remove a concept. By using the ability concepts are removed from reality. This can be wide-spread or very targeted, either erasing the concept of an overarching fundamental principle, such as space, or an individual. When destroyed at this level, nothing can be restored without using a similarly powerful conceptual creation. Conventional regeneration or resurrection, no matter how powerful, would prove impossible as the very abstract concept of the character would not exist.
  
  
• Concept Creation: The ability to create concepts. By using this ability, destroyed concepts can be restored or new ones created, giving the user the ability to create fundamental principles that govern reality and the world around them. With this power, one can create a concept that is unfathomable to the current mind, changing the world to match this new conceptual universal.

By the way, your description of Project Stigma isn't correct.

The goal of Project Stigma is to replace the humans in Reality with the Forms in Imaginary Space, by switching Real and Imaginary.

It's more accurate to say they're ascending humanity to Imaginary Space via the Spiritual Adam, leaving reality behind.

Jackal: In this process, they will become Stigmata and enter Imaginary Space, constructing the base of the new world. Contrary to us, right?

Seele: Wait… Become Stigmata? What does that mean?

Jackal: Literally what it means. They lose their physical body and become the void, transforming into a stepping stone for coexistence between the Earth and the Honkai.

Furthermore, Imaginary Concepts like Hare existing in Real Space is only possible when Real Space and Imaginary Space is linked. Something that specifically happens with Hare.

In this extreme state, her Stigmata did go beyond the Herrscher of the Void’s authority and briefly break the boundaries between reality and Imaginary Space.
The instant Imaginary Space was connected, the entity known as Stigmata Space by humanity, first emerged in the human world.
It first proved the descent of Ideas, as the byproduct of the Stigmata’s curse on the Schariac.

Theresa: Imaginary Constructs… This place is still linked to Imaginary Space.

Einstein: Project STIGMA will merge reality and Imaginary Space

Seele: But what good is it? Project STIGMA has reconstructed Earth’s space, who are you going to be able to reach out to?

So Hare existing in Real Space when Project Stigma is active isn't a disqualifier, given it's merging reality and Imaginary Space. Its effects are even present on the moon, as it's Project Stigma which supresses Herrscher Powers and nullifies the Herrscher Core of Reason.

Kiana: Right. If things are as distorted by Project STIGMA here as they are on the moon, it’ll be difficult to use the Herrscher of the Void’s powers.

As he’d said, the dreams created by Project STIGMA might have their own limitations, but they were not restricted by objective reality. It could be completely illogical, and all of this should have never occurred.

---

So I don't think it's particularly an anti-feat that Hare can descend into reality while Project Stigma is specifically active. Project Stigma is also the thing that creates Forms and is merging reality with Imaginary Space recreated Misteln. Nor is information specifically described as the way Misteln is copied.

As for Misteln existing before Project Stigma, it's specific that Cecilia:

In this extreme state, her Stigmata did go beyond the Herrscher of the Void’s authority and briefly break the boundaries between reality and Imaginary Space.
???: There are always outliers as well. But for those… not even I would know what’ll happen.
The instant Imaginary Space was connected, the entity known as Stigmata Space by humanity, first emerged in the human world.
It first proved the descent of Ideas, as the byproduct of the Stigmata’s curse on the Schariac.

It isn't conclusive that Hare's form is physical either. Gray Serpent specifically says this about Misteln Schariac before Project Stigma is activated.

Gray Serpent: For example, you tried to end yourself dozens of times for the never-ending agony, and I had the privilege to watch over half of your suicidal performances up close.
???: You’re… disgusting.
Gray Serpent: For me, the end justifies the means.
Gray Serpent: And you, as a thorough hollow… you’ve exhibited extraordinary imagination when it comes to killing yourself.
Gray Serpent: You don’t need air. but you plunged yourself into deep water. You don’t have a concrete form, but you stabbed yourself with a knife.

So, your disqualifiers:

- What descended is the Form itself. As not only is it never implied that Hare has some other hidden essence or whatever, but that she as the literal Form can be killed and then have the information of that Form even be used to clone her.

Misteln has no concrete form and even flickers out of reality when she's not connected to Imaginary Space. She has no concrete form and she cannot die through normal means. Only Project Stigma, something that can manipulate Imaginary Space (merging reality with Imaginary Space) is capable of destroying her. Imaginary Space is a conceptual realm that can be manipulated and is the world of ideas, as touched on in the OP, so it's not a stretch to say Project Stigma can do this.

This, with a lot of other problems that should be obvious (like not everyone having a Stigma), should be clear why its not actually CM1.

Those who don't have the Honkai Resistance to bear a Stigma turn into a zombie if they cannot bear the Stigma. The whole point of ARC City is setting off a Honkai bomb in a city to awaken as many people's stigma's as possible.
I also request that if you truly believe not everyone having a Stigma to be an issue, you should elaborate on it, rather than saying it 'should be clear'.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

@MrKerf @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Vietthai96
Help is appreciated. I did my best

 

[SuperNova55555]

I don't think this is ever said. In fact, Misteln's power was awakening Stigmata in people around her and she couldn't control it, the people that couldn't awaken a stigmata died. Everyone has a stigmata, it's just that most can't awaken it.

Well even if not explicitly stated, it’d be very strange semantically.

Those bearing stigma are like spiders born to spin webs. Project Stigma in turn weaves a web so large that it can even bind and absorb Finality.

Particularly because the series always speaks as if there is a difference between those possess and do not possess stigma. So do non-Stigma Awakened not bear a stigma? How does it follow that they still have it? Strange.

Her 'descent into reality' is described as:
She is the idea of a Schariac, the non-existent form

Not exactly sure what this is meant to imply.

Simply 'dying' isn't the description - It's that when Project Stigma activates this'll happen. Your screenshot says this.

Project Stigma is already thoroughly intertwined with Imaginary Space and creating Forms.
This fits rather neatly under conceptual destruction and creation. I believe Project Stigma is able to do this because its central idea is merging Real Space into Imaginary Space, and its effects are clearly visible on the moon. I touch on this further below.

I’m not sure there’s any difference here(?) Like, I don’t know what your point is attempting to address is the issue. Whether or not it is death or destruction is irrelevant as long as the subject imposed of it is the Form, and ergo becomes correspondent to the conscious entity know as Hare.

Furthermore, Imaginary Concepts like Hare existing in Real Space is only possible when Real Space and Imaginary Space is linked. Something that specifically happens with Hare.
So Hare existing in Real Space when Project Stigma is active isn't a disqualifier, given it's merging reality and Imaginary Space. Its effects are even present on the moon, as it's Project Stigma which supresses Herrscher Powers and nullifies the Herrscher Core of Reason.

I mean, eh, this is actually a good point, for what it’s worth.

Though I do wanna say now that I think about it, that Forms becoming real probably isn’t much of an issue for CM specifically. I mean, considering that she would already be a complex universal, it’d probably not be farfetched that it can be present spatiotemporally, as well, because the standards are most definitely broad enough for it.

It isn't conclusive that Hare's form is physical either.

I’m not claiming this to begin with, though.

I also request that if you truly believe not everyone having a Stigma to be an issue, you should elaborate on it, rather than saying it 'should be clear'.

Because then it follows that not everyone participates in these Forms, if humans can exist without one. And then obviously that takes away from the actually-existing Forms because it means that their particulars aren’t actually dependent on them for Being.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Because then it follows that not everyone participates in these Forms, if humans can exist without one. And then obviously that takes away from the actually-existing Forms because it means that their particulars aren’t actually dependent on them for Being.

I'm gonna be honest, she's the Form of a Schariac. Not humanity in general, but it's still CM1. All Schariacs have Stigmata, or at least the unawakened imprint of such. It's just governing a smaller aspect of reality, which still fits entirely within CM1 standards.

I think there's much less issue with CM1. Your last major contention seems to be the death part, which, surrounding Misteln's death:

Hare: Oh, right. Do you not know about this yet? I’m the 2nd generation Hare created by Project STIGMA.

I'm just saying it's not a disqualifier as Project STIGMA can certainly create concepts given its manipulation over Imaginary Space and the whole part of it 'making Forms' - Imaginary space is also an innately conceptual dimension as discussed in the OP. It seems totally normal that Project STIGMA is also able to terminate these concepts too, given we literally see it destroy and recreate Misteln.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I'm gonna be honest, she's the Form of a Schariac. Not humanity in general, but it's still CM1. All Schariacs have Stigmata, or at least the unawakened imprint of such.

I think there's much less issue with CM1. Your last major contention seems to be the death part, I'm just demonstrating it's impossible other than Project Stigma, which seems to be able to manipulate concepts anyway.

As for the stuff surrounding Misteln's death.

I'm just saying it's not a disqualifier as Project Stigma can destroy and create concepts given its manipulation over Imaginary Space, an innately conceptual dimension as discussed in the OP.

Nah my issue isn't PS affecting Forms but rather that it seems to be implied that Forms aren't actually a pre-condition for the existence of it's particulars. And they're just entities that represent the imaginary mental space of a bloodline. Because the way I interpreted Project Stigma is that not everyone has a corresponding Stigma Space, and therefore the humans themselves are turned into Stigmata within a dreamscape to in a sense create that particular mental space for everyone and thusly allow for the creation and descent of other Forms. Which is why I bring up the issue of the Form dying, because it doesn't implicitly seem that whatever is the Form of the Schariac actually grounds the existence of them, but rather is simply some representative imaginary concept that can be turned into information and made copies of. Which I should say, isn't by necessity of a contradiction, but it makes it holistically unplausible when related to other points.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

following, this better not have 12 pages when I come back!

wha happend

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Because the way I interpreted Project Stigma is that not everyone has a corresponding Stigma Space, and therefore the humans themselves are turned into Stigmata within a dreamscape to in a sense create that particular mental space for everyone and thusly allow for the creation and descent of other Forms.

If Mei was here, she would find that this person looked… similar to the elderly who had fused with the Stigmata Space.

Humans had forgotten the line between dreams and reality, and began to embrace their new lives in the Stigmata Space.

Having found the answer he was after and bored with the task at hand, Gray Serpent stopped monitoring Stigmata Space.

Durandal: This is where the Kaslana’s Stigmata Space and Imaginary Space meet.

Durandal: In Klostern… Otto had exiled me here.

Kiana: So we’re still a ways away from the core of Stigmata Space…

Although she could not directly help the humans who have fused with Stigmata Space to escape, she could give hints to the humans lost in dreams.

Gray Serpent: As long as the human dreams in Stigmata Space last, it can never be destroyed.

What I'm going to argue here is that the Spiritual Adam merely connects the people trapped within the Adam with their Stigmata spaces. This is because:

Will of Stigmata: As you can see, the Stigmata space can connect to a dream under certain circumstances.

The Spiritual Adam just connects humanity to their pre-existing Stigmata spaces. There's clearly a lot of stigmata spaces, and Stigmata spaces are fundamentally connected to Imaginary Space, especially given Stigmata are Imaginary Beings.

Which is why I bring up the issue of the Form dying, because it doesn't implicitly seem that whatever is the Form of the Schariac actually grounds the existence of them, but rather is simply some representative imaginary concept that can be turned into information and made copies of.

Gray Serpent: A Stigmata is the crystal of human thoughts and will. When a human fuses with a dream, the Stigmata Space already possesses everything the human has.

Gray Serpent: Stigmata Space gathers all of humanity’s consciousness and knowledge. This means that any existence, even one as strange as you… Can be captured by Project STIGMA.

Stigmata space already possesses everything of humanity's. To connect this to the Herrscher of Reason, which is much like the idea of the Spiritual Adam:

Prometheus: The Herrscher of Reason is limited only by what civilisation deems possible. Which is to say, the limitations of narrative.
Bronya: The limitations… of narrative?
...
Prometheus: Morality, money, language, customs, aesthetics, all narratives. All stories. Starting with the earliest people, living narratives…
Prometheus: And this resulted in what we call civilisation.
Prometheus: As Dr. MEI had said, “civilisation comes from fiction but transcends reality”.
...
Prometheus: Civilisation has always made exist that which was only imaginary… humans have created everything they have. It’s allowed them to make this…
Prometheus: That too is a narrative.
Mei: You mean… the heritage of civilisation?
Prometheus: Right. From heroic legends to words on a chalkboard to data in electronic memory… All narrative, creating its own story.
Prometheus: People enjoying stories, learn from stories, and use stories to unite those that are different…
Prometheus: Humans are animals of narrative. And narratives are how humanity can reshape the world.
Prometheus: …Past scholars have referred to narrative as “reason”. As the one that creates, this is why you’re called the Herrscher of Reason.
...
Prometheus: Project STIGMA is the narrative about narratives. Created by a story to govern all stories.
Prometheus: Project STIGMA’s lowest-level logic is existence. This is what fiction is built on and the origin of all abstract concepts.
Prometheus: It’s built on existence… the words aren’t important. At any rate, they express existence’s two most important properties: freedom and self-consciousness.
Prometheus: Ideas are at the core of Project STIGMA. Ideas give people enlightenment and reflect an outline of what we’d call truth.
Prometheus: Ideas will always have contradictions… But this is how they express existence and remove the boundary between fiction and reality.
Prometheus: For Project STIGMA, life is the most direct idea, while absoluteness is the highest idea.
Prometheus: This way, the absoluteness of life is set within fiction…
Prometheus: So it can be liberated from individuality and become a truth in and of itself.

Project Stigma is a narrative about all narratives, the main point being ideas being the core of project Stigma, point being that it governs all concepts and ideas and asserts itself onto them. These ideas all already exist, the knowledge is pre-existing, and thus this is how its particulars, such as Hare, are grounded. All the ideas of the Schariac already exist.
The Spiritual Adam is directly relevant because it's what makes Hare's death possible.

 

[SuperNova55555]

What I'm going to argue here is that the Spiritual Adam merely connects the people trapped within the Adam with their Stigmata spaces. This is because:

The Spiritual Adam just connects humanity to their pre-existing Stigmata spaces. There's clearly a lot of stigmata spaces, and Stigmata spaces are fundamentally connected to Imaginary Space, especially given Stigmata are Imaginary Beings.




Stigmata space already possesses everything of humanity's. To connect this to the Herrscher of Reason, which is much like the idea of the Spiritual Adam:

Project Stigma is a narrative about all narratives, the main point being ideas being the core of project Stigma, point being that it governs all concepts and ideas and asserts itself onto them. These ideas all already exist, the knowledge is pre-existing, and thus this is how its particulars, such as Hare, are grounded. All the ideas of the Schariac already exist.
The Spiritual Adam is directly relevant because it's what makes Hare's death possible.

No but here’s the issue, because these speak of Stigmata as being the derivative of the human psyche, as in, these Ideas are formed through the minds of civilizations, not the other way around. So either they are posterior to the humans themselves or they’re CM2ish like how Erudition is, which considering they both use the same exact analogies and references (since they’re obviously connected as Amphoreus is the Flamechasers expy), it might just in fact be CM2.

So like, Stigma Space already possesses everything because it already possesses the thoughts of the human merging with them, prior to the human merging with its own thoughts. That’s what these statements mean:

Gray Serpent: A Stigmata is the crystal of human thoughts and will. When a human fuses with a dream, the Stigmata Space already possesses everything the human has.

Gray Serpent: Stigmata Space gathers all of humanity’s consciousness and knowledge. This means that any existence, even one as strange as you… Can be captured by Project STIGMA.

 

[MrKerf]

@MrKerf @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Vietthai96
Help is appreciated. I did my best

I'll comment on Sunday, if you aren't done by then, having 10 hour shifts today and tomorrow ( ).

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

No but here’s the issue, because these speak of Stigmata as being the derivative of the human psyche, as in, these Ideas are formed through the minds of civilizations, not the other way around. So either they are posterior to the humans themselves or they’re CM2ish like how Erudition is, which considering they both use the same exact analogies and references (since they’re obviously connected as Amphoreus is the Flamechasers expy), it might just in fact be CM2.

So like, Stigma Space already possesses everything because it already possesses the thoughts of the human merging with them, prior to the human merging with its own thoughts. That’s what these statements mean:

Civilisation has always made exist that which was only imaginary…

I'll disagree because of this from the excerpt I sent. All these ideas already exist in Imaginary Space, humanity just creates it in reality. The narrative is aboit humanity acfualising these things, and Project Stigma seeks to merge humanity into Imaginary Space, thus merging them with these ideas.

This is why Hare discusses this:

Hare: The only difference is that in the new world… infants will not undergo the overlong process of learning and growing.

Hare: They will sense everything that is known, namely ideals, perceptions, and wills in your language, via the Stigmata at birth.

Once they’ve merged with Imaginary Space, they'll already know everything from birth.

I'll leave the discussion here though so eval can happen.

I'll comment on Sunday, if you aren't done by then, having 10 hour shifts today and tomorrow ( ).

Hope your shifts go well.