Tien and co. back to 5-C (Dragon Ball Revision)

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

.....sorry, but where is this from? i would prefer to see the scan of the guide itself rather than someone talking about it

That's kanzenshuu, the single most reliable site when it comes to official Dragon Ball in the entire internet, so either way, this would be reliable.

 

[Dalesean027]

Good god where are we now where people don't even know the classic scan locations

Seems to be from either daizenshuu or weekly jump. There is the wiki which collects them but their images don't open to me.

Its daizenshuu 7, here's the link from the kanzenshuu site

Battle Power Guide | Databook Battle Powers

A complete listing of supplemental Dragon Ball character battle powers cited in the franchise's guide books and magazine releases

www.kanzenshuu.com

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

That's kanzenshuu, the single most reliable site when it comes to official Dragon Ball in the entire internet, so either way, this would be reliable.

I actually found it here https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Power_Levels. But they do have the references to the value. Also thank you dale for it. I found it yesterday but couldn't find it today. This is also pretty good proof. Showing how weaker Roshi is compared to both of them even after training.

Kame-Sen’nin (Jackie Chun): 139
He powered up with training that he kept secret from his pupils. He did his best to build a bridge to the new era.

This is taken from Kame-Sen’nin’s battle power when Bulma measures him with her converted scouter. It is worth pointing out that this is specifically supposed to be his battle power after he got stronger training for the 22nd Tenka’ichi Budōkai, meaning it would be lower during his first appearance in the series, and his fight with Goku at the 21st Tenka’ichi Budōkai.

Kame-Sen’nin (Muten Rōshi): 180
The picture would seem to indicate that this is from his stand against Demon King Piccolo. Daizenshuu 7 lists Kame-Sen’nin as being at 139 during the 22nd Tenka’ichi Budōkai. The text says that “he fires the original Kamehameha“, so perhaps this is supposed to be his Kamehameha‘s power, or to indicate that he was stronger during his fight with the demon king than he was at the tournament?

Putting this side by the side and considering he didn't really train after the 22nd Budokai except if he did in which case someone correct me that should be his max power kamehameha which is equal to Goku and Tien's base PL.

 

[Dalesean027]

I actually found it here https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Power_Levels. But they do have the references to the value.

It literally links to the daizenshuu guides I just sent from the kanzenshuu site that yellow also knows its the most official source again its Daizenshuu 7 these power levels are from

 

[RedReaper]

Good god where are we now where people don't even know the classic scan locations

Its daizenshuu 7, here's the link from the kanzenshuu site

Battle Power Guide | Databook Battle Powers

A complete listing of supplemental Dragon Ball character battle powers cited in the franchise's guide books and magazine releases

www.kanzenshuu.com

Huh. Re-reading this, I just realized: It should also be noted it's EXPLICITLY mentioned that Roshi's power level was lower than 139 in the 21st Ten., as the 139 came from his improved self.

"It is worth pointing out that this is specifically supposed to be his battle power after he got stronger training for the 22nd Tenka’ichi Budōkai, meaning it would be lower during his first appearance in the series, and in his fight with Goku at the 21st Tenka’ichi Budōkai."

So Tienshinhan definitely exceeds the bar of the Max Power Kamehameha.

 

[Damage3245]

Huh. Re-reading this, I just realized: It should also be noted it's EXPLICITLY mentioned that Roshi's power level was lower than 139 in the 21st Ten., as the 139 came from his improved self.

"It is worth pointing out that this is specifically supposed to be his battle power after he got stronger training for the 22nd Tenka’ichi Budōkai, meaning it would be lower during his first appearance in the series, and in his fight with Goku at the 21st Tenka’ichi Budōkai."

So Tienshinhan definitely exceeds the bar of the Max Power Kamehameha.

The Kamehameha raises the user's Power Level.

Him having a 139 rating earlier doesn't mean the the Max Power Kamehameha was 139.

Kame-Sen’nin (Muten Rōshi): 180
The picture would seem to indicate that this is from his stand against Demon King Piccolo. Daizenshuu 7 lists Kame-Sen’nin as being at 139 during the 22nd Tenka’ichi Budōkai. The text says that “he fires the original Kamehameha“, so perhaps this is supposed to be his Kamehameha‘s power, or to indicate that he was stronger during his fight with the demon king than he was at the tournament?

Putting this side by the side and considering he didn't really train after the 22nd Budokai except if he did in which case someone correct me that should be his max power kamehameha which is equal to Goku and Tien's base PL.

I'm pretty sure "He fires the original Kamehameha" it just a description of Roshi's character; since he was the inventor and first person to shoot a Kamehameha. It doesn't say that he was Power Level 180 when he fired the Kamehameha.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Some extra stuff:

The Yellow Box: "☆Indeed, the power of both is extraordinary. Tien Shinhan, willing to fight even against his own master. Goku, who is overwhelmingly strong, causes him to struggle. Who will claim the title of being the strongest in the world!!"

 

[Dalesean027]

Some extra stuff:

The Yellow Box: "☆Indeed, the power of both is extraordinary. Tien Shinhan, willing to fight even against his own master. Goku, who is overwhelmingly strong, causes him to struggle. Who will claim the title of being the strongest in the world!!"

Now I get it I do...but that specifc strongest in the world is just the monkier of the world tournament. To determine the strongest in the world so lets not be too hasty with that statement but that said yeah no matter how it goes I think very very bare bomes minimum likely moon level is warranted if we wanted to compromise

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

The Kamehameha raises the user's Power Level.

Him having a 139 rating earlier doesn't mean the the Max Power Kamehameha was 139.


I'm pretty sure "He fires the original Kamehameha" it just a description of Roshi's character; since he was the inventor and first person to shoot a Kamehameha. It doesn't say that he was Power Level 180 when he fired the Kamehameha.

Goku also uses a kamehameha and his base is 180 though. And even super kamehameha has a boost of 2.2 from the raditz fight. Considering how Roshi was even lower back then his MP kamehameha would barely equal Goku's base.

The Yellow Box: "☆Indeed, the power of both is extraordinary. Tien Shinhan, willing to fight even against his own master. Goku, who is overwhelmingly strong, causes him to struggle. Who will claim the title of being the strongest in the world!!"

Personally not a fun of that argument as we have ton of better ones than somy hyping statement like the fact that Tien's technigue was the strongest the world had ever seen.

 

[omegabronic]

King used it, so it's probably good

huh......this is showing that non "buff full power roshi" is 180, do we have anything stating the pl of buff roshi? more over, the pl of his most powerful attack aka the max power kamehameha? sorry it is just that i am a little confused how that scan even matter for what it is being contested tbh

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

huh......this is showing that non "buff full power roshi" is 180, do we have anything stating the pl of buff roshi? more over, the pl of his most powerful attack aka the max power kamehameha? sorry it is just that i am a little confused how that scan even matter for what it is being contested tbh

Battle Power Guide | Databook Battle Powers

A complete listing of supplemental Dragon Ball character battle powers cited in the franchise's guide books and magazine releases

www.kanzenshuu.com

Kame-Sen’nin (Muten Rōshi): 180
The picture would seem to indicate that this is from his stand against Demon King Piccolo. Daizenshuu 7 lists Kame-Sen’nin as being at 139 during the 22nd Tenka’ichi Budōkai. The text says that “he fires the original Kamehameha“, so perhaps this is supposed to be his Kamehameha‘s power, or to indicate that he was stronger during his fight with the demon king than he was at the tournament?

This is probably the translation to the picture?

Also the fact that he had a base of 139 compared to 180 of Goku and Tien which was already said before.

 

[RedReaper]

The Kamehameha raises the user's Power Level.

Him having a 139 rating earlier doesn't mean the the Max Power Kamehameha was 139.


I'm pretty sure "He fires the original Kamehameha" it just a description of Roshi's character; since he was the inventor and first person to shoot a Kamehameha. It doesn't say that he was Power Level 180 when he fired the Kamehameha.

No one said that? I said that Roshi was 139 at the fight against Goku in the 22nd Tenkaichi, and Tien is at 180 + the Kikoho which according to you amplifies power more. (Which should then easily clear him over Roshi's Moon Level attack). Again, like I said last post, your argument simply is not internally consistent.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Now I get it I do...but that specifc strongest in the world is just the monkier of the world tournament. To determine the strongest in the world so lets not be too hasty with that statement but that said yeah no matter how it goes I think very very bare bomes minimum likely moon level is warranted if we wanted to compromise

Personally not a fun of that argument as we have ton of better ones than somy hyping statement like the fact that Tien's technigue was the strongest the world had ever seen.

Guys... This is supportive evidence, no one is acting like this is definitive proof of anything.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

No one said that? I said that Roshi was 139 at the fight against Goku in the 22nd Tenkaichi, and Tien is at 180 + the Kikoho which according to you amplifies power more. (Which should then easily clear him over Roshi's Moon Level attack). Again, like I said last post, your argument simply is not internally consistent.

Goku could shoot a kamehameha too which should have been far stronger than Roshi's then. Even Tien's kamehameha should have been superior to 21st Budokai which would also make sense with Roshi stopping the match. From what it seems every kamehameha before Super kamehameha should have been a single technigue as stated by @The_Yellow_Topaz with evidence the different technigues shown. If I said something wrong Yellow please correct me.

youtube.com/watch?v=kjv3_qKD4Bc

 

[KingTempest]

I am not sure to which character you are referring to, but Raditz was not hurt at all by Goku's Kamehameha wave, he caught it with no damage at all.

I never claimed we did?

I suppose we can say goku Withstanding Attacks from raditz with minor damage.

We do not scale Goku from Raditz.
We scale Raditz to Goku.

A casual Raditz badly hurting Goku and Goku only staying up cause of stamina and tenacity is a feat for Raditz.

The evidence already presented below that ki treated as a Universal Energy System scales to physical statistic such has durability, attack potency, striking strength. See it has ki empowering their physical stats such has their durability instead of shooting it like a ki blast but amping it through their fist for example.

You don't even understand the words you're typing.

A universal energy system means that the energy used for A is used for B, C, D, E, and so on.

Surface area exists. The ki you use to punch + the ki in all the other parts of your body being compressed into 1 point and blasted is far stronger than only the ki you put in 1 spot

 

[KingTempest]

I'm going to do bullet points because I don't want a mess of a reply.

• Tien and Roshi are even, Roshi managed to hurt Tien. Full Power Tien still got parried

This never happened. You can check your own colored scans, but in no point is Tien bruised. Tien managed to draw blood from Roshi, however once at full power

The parry is not really that relevant, he parried a single punch and got immediately overwhelmed by Tien's superior speed, and strength!

It's clear that Tien is leagues above that version of Roshi, there is no point arguing otherwise. The fact they were even before either of them fought seriously is not a relevant factor, this usually happens at the beginning of most fights in classic before one side decides to fight seriously and overwhelm the opponent (Unless they're truly evenly matched)

In this case, Full Power Tien is more powerful than Roshi at that point, and the latter couldn't land a hit on him, it's clear that Roshi would need to use more power to match Tien. This is the only thing I'm arguing for!

P.S: I said Roshi managed to land blows on Tien due to superior experience and skill as a fighter (since we know Tien is faster)! Not that he managed to hurt him via superior skill! That statement wouldn't have made any sense

---

I never said he drew blood from him, ever.
I said he could hurt him.
In real life you can hurt somebody without making them bleed.
They knocked each other back and forth.

It's canon that he hits harder than that version of Roshi. Higher power level, implied to hit harder, etc.
Issue is that you're saying it's such a big gap that only way Roshi could've kept up is with his full power strength.

• Tien was not holding back physically, he was only holding back his abilities.

Once at full power;
It's evident he got faster, after all Roshi didn't even manage to keep up for more than one panel.
It's evident he got stronger, one attack made Roshi's nose bleed, none of the previous hits did that.
Both factors are seen in the same page.

Saying Tien wasn't holding back physically is weird considering how well Roshi was doing at the beginning and how bad he was doing at the end

I might've misinterpreted that one so please correct me!

---

Once at full power, he instantly blinded Roshi.
Blinding Roshi made it harder for him to look, getting him tagged.
Getting hit by somebody doesn't mean they're faster than you I hope you know that.

On top of that, Roshi redirected his Kamehameha with his bare hands.

• Roshi says that he would probably lose, not definitely. You're ignoring the line. Tien never said he was going to win because of Roshi's performance

No, no, I acknowledge the line! Please calmly read my OP again, I said that the line informs us that Roshi would probably lose the battle had it kept going!
But, judging by how Tien was overpowering and nearly outspeeding Roshi at the very end, the line only makes sense if Roshi is including an eventual use of his full power, because if Roshi refused to use more power than he did during the tournament, defeat would be certain, not probable!

I'm using the line to argue that Tien scales to MAX Power Roshi, at least physically!

About the second part, you did say Tien knew about Roshi not going all out, and still claimed he would have won. The only thing Tien could base himself off is the very fight they had! It can only be about Roshi's performance in the ring, and even acknowledging his eventual full power.
Roshi later confirms that his assumption is likely true, so there is no point in arguing that imo

---

That is just headcanon.
They way they word it is that if Roshi kept fighting how he was, he would've lost.

On top of that, Roshi does not utilize his physicals for his Full Power form pre-Z. At all.
The enhanced muscles it there for the sole purpose of the backlash from the stronger kamehamehas that he uses against them.

• Tien was not talking about MAX Power Kamehameha when he said he wasn't at full power.

No one said that.

---

Backup argument in case you say "the full power he's referring to could mean the max power kamehameha"

PSST, THIS IS IMPORTANT.
Sorry to burst your bubble tempest, but 180 is the power level of Roshi when he fires the Original Kamehameha.
The visual is just misleading, but thankfully the text is there.​

---

...
so wait...
when he fires the original kamehameha...
like back on frypan..?

so wait. Goku and Yamcha are equal in power to the kamehameha that boomed frypan... which is weaker than the Max Power Kamehameha?

• You shouldn't assume that every statement is referring exclusively to AP, there's speed and skill.

I think you'd have a hard time arguing that Tien is more skilled than Master Roshi. Even then, that's not the point, I'm saying it should include physical strength because Tien often relies on it to fight, as well as Master Roshi!

Of course techniques would play a major part, but I'm including physicals, not making it all about 'em! Ah, and of course, as a UES, if Tien is faster, he is probably stronger and more durable as well.

---

Everybody relies on Physical strength to fight, but we see that rarely people end up overcoming fights with just physical strength.
Tien after saying "full power" just blinded Roshi and cheap shotted him.

PSST, THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT SECTION OF THE RESPONSE.​

• MAX Power Kamehameha is only said to be used at Chapter 51, so Chapter 14's isn't a MAX Power Kamehameha. MAX Power Kamehameha is referred as a technique. There is no evidence that Super Kamehameha is stronger than MAX Power Kamehameha.

You're missing the point.

I do have evidence that MAX Power Kamehameha is just a regular Kamehameha. The Daizenshuu 7 also often refers to mundane variations as "it's own technique", as I'll show you below

1. I wouldn't say it's fair to use the fact Daizenshuu refers to MAX Power as a technique as an argument, when the guide goes as far as listing a mispronunciation of "Kamehameha" as it's own separate technique. I believe the point is null

False equivalence. They weirdly put it as a completely separate technique from the Kamehameha cause technically it is the same Kamehameha but different naming for it (just like the Galick Gun, which is stated multiple times to be just like the Kamehameha).

On top of that, they say the Max Power Kamehameha is noted as a special version under, just like the Super Kamehameha.

1. I'll be listing examples of the Moon-Busting Kamehameha being listed as a regular Kamehameha:
   1. During Daizenshuu 2: Story Guide, the MAX Power Kamehameha is not listed as a new version of the technique at all, as you can see in the Special Attacks section. You can see that it's not listed as a new technique during the 21st Budokai Tenkaichi.
      • Super Kamehameha, however, is listed as a stronger version of the Kamehameha, it includes the one used as 21st Budokai that shattered the moon since it was all bundled up in the same category
   2. Dragon Ball: Bouken Special cites the Kamehameha that destroyed the moon as a normal Kamehameha. Translation.
   3. Daizenshuu again cites the moon busting Kamehameha as just a Kamehameha.
   4. El Manga Legendario, the "spanish guide I love" also lists Roshi's moon busting wave as a regular Kamehameha. Translation.
   5. Dragon Ball: Bouken Special again explains that the MAX Power Kamehameha is just the maximum output of the regular version of the technique. Translation.

---

All your arguments showed honestly is that it's just a kamehameha, but much stronger.
That's the same as the super kamehameha, a kamehameha, but much stronger. That's even what Goku said when he was doing the Super Kamehameha.
The point is that Roshi's regular kamehamehas wouldn't scale to that at all, neither would anyone else.

On top of that, it not being showed in the special attacks section for D2 wouldn't... make it not a special attack.
They just showed arbitrary techniques and called em special attacks.
They sent Goku's "Kamehameha deflection"... which is just a regular Kamehameha... used to deflect another.
They didn't send the instant transmission kamehameha in there either. That's the same too?

It's in the Special Attack Section for Daizenshuu 7, that's fine enough.

• "misuse the definition of tank"

Semantics, my point is that Goku can take attacks from Raditz despite the fact he had a higher power level than his own Super Kamehameha wave. That much is true, and goes to show that Goku's physicals aren't 3 whole tiers below his Ki Wave.

---

The way you say it is as if it isn't too far off, when narrative and implications show that there are.

All cause you have a higher power level doesn't mean that you'd get a hole blasted through you every time somebody stronger than you touches you.

Regardless, w/e

• Some examples of Kamehameha being a finishing move/harming high tier opponents

Using regenerative opponents is very dishonest because more often than not they can take attacks from people of much lower caliber and still get a piece of themselves taken off just because they can regenerate, Buu is the worst offender of this trope.

But still I don't think your examples outweight mine, we have evidence on both sides, situations where a wave is not enough to kill someone, and the opposite.

---

...what
you do realize owning regeneration doesn't mean you have bad durability right?
And no, if they get pieces of their body chunked off, then they scale. That's how it works.
Nobody lobs off pieces of Buu and is far weaker.

On top of that, I didn't just name their feats of getting their bodies destroyed, I named their durability feats.

• The gap is at least 10x

Well, I'm trying to debunk the three tier gap. I am satisfied with 10x, so this is not really a threat to me.
MAX Power Roshi's physicals are not High 8-C.

I'd say it's "at most 10x".
MAX Power Roshi is stronger than regular Goku, who is relative to regular Roshi.

---

Quick point.

Full Power Roshi doesn't utilize any physicals until Super.
Full Power Roshi is only activated for the drawback of the Kamehameha.

So all this "Full Power Roshi's physicals"... they don't exist.

 

[Damage3245]

No one said that? I said that Roshi was 139 at the fight against Goku in the 22nd Tenkaichi, and Tien is at 180 + the Kikoho which according to you amplifies power more. (Which should then easily clear him over Roshi's Moon Level attack). Again, like I said last post, your argument simply is not internally consistent.

I assume you meant the 21st Tenkaichi?

And so what? That's irrelevant. That's not the Power Level for his MAX Form.

 

[KingTempest]

I assume you meant the 21st Tenkaichi?

And so what? That's irrelevant. That's not the Power Level for his MAX Form.

They're arguing it's the power level for his Full Power Kamehameha (Chapter 14 frypan busting Kamehameha),
Which i've proved is different than the moon busting one

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

They're arguing it's the power level for his Full Power Kamehameha (Chapter 14 frypan busting Kamehameha),
Which i've proved is different than the moon busting one

You never did though? It was quickly disproven. Can't answer to the other wall of text currently so I hope that someone replies to that but they are the same thing proven two separate times by me and Yellow.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Huh. Re-reading this, I just realized: It should also be noted it's EXPLICITLY mentioned that Roshi's power level was lower than 139 in the 21st Ten., as the 139 came from his improved self.

"It is worth pointing out that this is specifically supposed to be his battle power after he got stronger training for the 22nd Tenka’ichi Budōkai, meaning it would be lower during his first appearance in the series, and in his fight with Goku at the 21st Tenka’ichi Budōkai."

So Tienshinhan definitely exceeds the bar of the Max Power Kamehameha.

Okay. So if Roshi's power with the Kamehameha is 180 and that's the power of Tien and Goku during the 22nd Budokai then it's pretty open and shut. They're 5-C. Roshi should also probably be 5-C in the 22nd Budokai due to fighting Tien and holding up.

 

[Dalesean027]

Nobody lobs off pieces of Buu and is far weaker.

You trapped yourself brother

 

[Damage3245]

Okay. So if Roshi's power with the Kamehameha is 180 and that's the power of Tien and Goku during the 22nd Budokai then it's pretty open and shut. They're 5-C. Roshi should also probably be 5-C in the 22nd Budokai due to fighting Tien and holding up.

Roshi's power with the Kamehameha is not 180.

 

[KingTempest]

You never did though? It was quickly disproven. Can't answer to the other wall of text currently so I hope that someone replies to that but they are the same thing proven two separate times by me and Yellow.

No, all you proved is that they were Kamehamehas

"MAX Power Kamehameha" and "Kamehameha" are both Kamehamehas, but the max power one is factually not the same as a regular one

Okay. So if Roshi's power with the Kamehameha is 180 and that's the power of Tien and Goku during the 22nd Budokai then it's pretty open and shut. They're 5-C. Roshi should also probably be 5-C in the 22nd Budokai due to fighting Tien and holding up.

Not every Kamehameha Roshi outputs is 5-C

You trapped yourself brother

They better not harp on that one damn point istg

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Roshi's power with the Kamehameha is not 180.

But that's what has been posted. Except if you wanna argue his power level increased from 139 to 180 from 22nd budokai to king piccolo saga in which case do bring proof of that.

 

[KingTempest]

But that's what has been posted. Except if you wanna argue his power level increased from 139 to 180 from 22nd budokai to king piccolo saga in which case do bring proof of that.

Or "he wasn't fighting at full power" and "him being at full power" makes a difference

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

No, all you proved is that they were Kamehamehas

"MAX Power Kamehameha" and "Kamehameha" are both Kamehamehas, but the max power one is factually not the same as a regular one

Not every Kamehameha Roshi outputs is 5-C

They better not harp on that one damn point istg

They actually are the same kamehameha. No idea where you are getting your info on it being a different technigue. It's the same kamehameha goku and tien do.

 

[Damage3245]

But that's what has been posted. Except if you wanna argue his power level increased from 139 to 180 from 22nd budokai to king piccolo saga in which case do bring proof of that.

I know it's what has been posted. The claim itself is based on an unsupported assumption.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Roshi's power with the Kamehameha is not 180.

We just had multiple posts referencing the Daizenshuu and verifying it. It states Roshi's power in the 22nd Budokai is 139 and shows that his power is 180 when firing the Kamehameha. Tien and Goku are both stated to be 180 normally.

I'm thinking there should be a summarisation of the people supporting and against the upgrade so we can all be caught up on the facts available to us, with as much evidence as possible.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I know it's what has been posted. The claim itself is based on an unsupported assumption.

Because the other is that his power level increased mysteriously and the translation says the original kamehameha which is pretty clear.

I will leave the summarization to someone else if possible. Not really good with it. I do think it will get quite big though.

 

[Damage3245]

We just had multiple posts referencing the Daizenshuu and verifying it. It states Roshi's power in the 22nd Budokai is 139 and shows that his power is 180 when firing the Kamehameha. Tien and Goku are both stated to be 180 normally.

I'm thinking there should be a summarisation of the people supporting and against the argument so we can all be caught up on the facts available to us, with as much evidence as possible.

Cryo, I'm telling you, what you're saying is not what has been posted.

It has not been shown anywhere that his power level is 180 when firing the Kamehameha.

Because the other is that his power level increased mysteriously and the translation says the original kamehameha which is pretty clear.

That's not what the translation says.

 

[KingTempest]

They actually are the same kamehameha. No idea where you are getting your info on it being a different technigue. It's the same kamehameha goku and tien do.

Except FAR STRONGER.
Yall trying to say all of this then in the same breath will say the Super Kamehameha is a different technique is hilarious.

 

[Dalesean027]

Guys please

But that's what has been posted. Except if you wanna argue his power level increased from 139 to 180 from 22nd budokai to king piccolo saga in which case do bring proof of that.

The kanzenshuu literally says this for the 180 Roshi PL

"The picture would seem to indicate that this is from his stand against Demon King Piccolo. Daizenshuu 7 lists Kame-Sen’nin as being at 139 during the 22nd Tenka’ichi Budōkai. The text says that “he fires the original Kamehameha“, so perhaps this is supposed to be his Kamehameha‘s power, or to indicate that he was stronger during his fight with the demon king than he was at the tournament?"

Pehaps people...perhaps, its not even certain that the 180 is his max power kamehameha why don't we just stick to likely that's literally what the rating is for since its seemingly what the 180 is referring to but its uncertain as the scan shows Roshi as he stands against Piccolo.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Except FAR STRONGER.
Yall trying to say all of this then in the same breath will say the Super Kamehameha is a different technique is hilarious.

Because it's called a different technigue. It's a better technigue. The other is not.

The kanzenshuu literally says this for the 180 Roshi PL

"The picture would seem to indicate that this is from his stand against Demon King Piccolo. Daizenshuu 7 lists Kame-Sen’nin as being at 139 during the 22nd Tenka’ichi Budōkai. The text says that “he fires the original Kamehameha“, so perhaps this is supposed to be his Kamehameha‘s power, or to indicate that he was stronger during his fight with the demon king than he was at the tournament?"

Pehaps people...perhapse its not even certain that the 180 is his max power kamehameha why don't we just stick to likely that's literally what the rating is for since its seemingly what the 180 is referring to but its uncertain as the scan shows Roshi as he stands against Piccolo.

Considering he got no increase in the meantime it's far more likely to actually indicate to the kamehameha especially because it includes it in the text.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Cryo, I'm telling you, what you're saying is not what has been posted.

It has not been shown anywhere that his power level is 180 when firing the Kamehameha.

I'm not going to argue you when I'm referencing other people's evidence and posts. Respond to them instead of me, who is simply agreeing with what they're saying.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not going to argue you when I'm referencing other people's evidence and posts. Respond to them instead of me, who is simply agreeing with what they're saying.

I am responding to them too, but when you're posting incorrect info based on what other people have said then I will have to correct you.

 

[KingTempest]

Because it's called a different technigue. It's a better technigue. The other is not.

It is not called a different technique. It is called the same technique, but stronger.

That's the same damn thing as the max power one

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Guys please
The kanzenshuu literally says this for the 180 Roshi PL

"The picture would seem to indicate that this is from his stand against Demon King Piccolo. Daizenshuu 7 lists Kame-Sen’nin as being at 139 during the 22nd Tenka’ichi Budōkai. The text says that “he fires the original Kamehameha“, so perhaps this is supposed to be his Kamehameha‘s power, or to indicate that he was stronger during his fight with the demon king than he was at the tournament?"

Pehaps people...perhaps, its not even certain that the 180 is his max power kamehameha why don't we just stick to likely that's literally what the rating is for since its seemingly what the 180 is referring to but its uncertain as the scan shows Roshi as he stands against Piccolo.

I could see this potentially meaning a 'possibly 5-C' for Tien and Goku if that interpretation is considered reasonable enough (which I think it is.)

 

[Dalesean027]

I could see this potentially meaning a 'possibly 5-C' for Tien and Goku if that interpretation is considered reasonable enough (which I think it is.)

Nah possibly is too little this is very much a case where its just "likely 5-C" being the rating I don't think anyone can say otherwise cause we literally just don't have the answers as it the actual guide is saying perhaps. We know 5-C exist and no one is arguing against that, I think we all understand that but considering the evidence and what we have we should just have Likely 5-C for 22nd and flat out 5-C for 23rd

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I am responding to them too, but when you're posting incorrect info based on what other people have said then I will have to correct you.

I'm not posting incorrect info. I'm responding to info posted by other people and saying it seems solid to me. What are you correcting from me? My belief in scans being posted? You haven't posted any evidence to contradict their scans to me or argued why that interpretation for the scan is wrong. You're just saying it's wrong.

Trying to 'correct' me is an utterly useless exercise. I'm not going to listen to you for no reason. Respond to the people I am starting to side with.

Nah possibly is too little this is very much a case where its just "likely 5-C" being the rating I don't think anyone can say otherwise cause we literally just don't have the answers as it the actual guide is saying perhaps. We know 5-C exist and no one is arguing against that, I think we all understand that but considering the evidence and what we have we should just have Likely 5-C for 22nd and flat out 5-C for 23rd

I'm okay with either in the end, just not a complete dismissal of what seems to be a reasonable interpretation of the scan provided.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Nobody lobs off pieces of Buu and is far weaker.

Just before replying to the whole thing... You know damn well this is not true.