Serlock_Holmes
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Damn vegeta really did a lot of chain reactions to blow the planet to bits.
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Tien and co. back to 5-C (Dragon Ball Revision)
- Thread starter The_Yellow_Topaz
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The issue is that most techniques in Dragon Ball that use Ki are built around amplifying Ki or increasing the effects of a technique beyond the user's own baseline ability. The Super Kamehameha multiplies Goku's power level when used, giving it much higher potency. Tien's Neo Tri-Beam was able to hold down Semi-Perfect Cell for a pretty long period of time despite Tien likely not even being on 2nd Form Freeza's level or Vegeta's Final Flash vaporising half of Perfect Cell's body. And it's not just limited to overall power level or potency either, there are techniques that are super fast (Death Beam) or multiply only the user's speed (Afterimage, Dyspo's Hypersonic Mode) and so on.
That's why people would disagree with the notion of scaling characters to MAX Kamehameha or the Kikoho. Because both of these techniques are known for multiplying power level when being charged and fired. They inherently scale far above their usual capabilities. So if we wanted to scale a character's physicals to powerful techniques it has to be demonstrated that those techniques don't multiply power level by an extreme amount.
So again, we really need hard scaling evidence that these techniques don't eclipse the user's usual physicals to scale them to it.
That's why people would disagree with the notion of scaling characters to MAX Kamehameha or the Kikoho. Because both of these techniques are known for multiplying power level when being charged and fired. They inherently scale far above their usual capabilities. So if we wanted to scale a character's physicals to powerful techniques it has to be demonstrated that those techniques don't multiply power level by an extreme amount.
So again, we really need hard scaling evidence that these techniques don't eclipse the user's usual physicals to scale them to it.
SirAlex09
He/Him- 1,164
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Whenever they got hit, they survived because either the attack wasn't mastered .
Let's look at the examples:
1. Krillin was somewhat relative to 22nd Budokai Goku and his Kamehameha was easily stopped by the latter.
2.Yamcha Kamehameha barely did any damage to the environment.
This was due to them not mastering the technique which is why it wasn't or wouldn't have been that hard to block with superior physical strength.
Whenever a technique was mastered it posed a lethal danger to the enemy like Tao's or Chaoitzu Dodon ray which would have killed Goku and Krillin respectively for sure.
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
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But Tao's beam didn't kill Goku?
He literally stopped it with his hands. Also the fight with Tao for sure shows how Goku fights using ki like Tao does as he was able to beat the tribe warrior.
SirAlex09
He/Him- 1,164
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This Goku was massively above him as stated by Korin. In their first fight Tao's Dodon Ray would have killed him for sure if it hadn't been for the DragonballBut Tao's beam didn't kill Goku?
He literally stopped it with his hands. Also the fight with Tao for sure shows how Goku fights using ki like Tao does as he was able to beat the tribe warrior.
They didn't know how to properly use Ki before training with Kami. Only how to discharge it.
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Serlock_Holmes
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You just said that physicals don't scale to ki though. Like yes he got stronger to catch korin in 3 days. What's what got to do with the fact that he caught an energy blast with his hands? Also goku wasn't massively above him. He was slightly stronger than him but he got quite a beat down.
He was able to beat him due to learing to read the opponents moves. But the beat down was worse than the damage Tao's dodon did so his dodon was pretty equal to his fists.
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,031
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SirAlex09
He/Him- 1,164
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I said their own physicals don't scale to their own energy attacks when mastered Pre Kami training.
It's not about Goku's physical stats scaling to Tao's dodon Ray I am talking about but rather Tao's fist , kicks and blocks not scaling to his own mastered Dodon Ray because he lacks the Ki control to do so.
(Comparison: Piccolo could block a superior Version of the kamehameha (more than a 2x amp) from Goku who is relative to him by infusing Ki into his block. Tao CAN'T DO that because he didn't master Ki control. Which is why his own physical strikes can't and shouldn't scale to his Dodon.)
And Goku was massively above him. He blocked his strongest attack with his bare hands and was stomping him
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
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I literally send you an image of him saying it hurt pretty badly. He was above him but not massively.
Also saying his speed was impossible really doesn't mean much except him being surprised at his speed.
SirAlex09
He/Him- 1,164
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Goku took them on purpose to analyse his fighting pattern. He was only slightly bleeding after taking an entire barrage of attacks.. This dosn't mean he wasn't massively above him. We see similar examples which resulted in one sided stomps like A19 vs Vegeta or Goku SSJ4 vs Baby Vegeta (base form) where they all bled after taking attacks on purpose.
I literally send you an image of him saying it hurt pretty badly. He was above him but not massively.
Also saying his speed was impossible really doesn't mean much except him being surprised at his speed.
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,031
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"His speed... is impossible!!"
"I-I'm finished..."
After getting serious, Goku bullied Tao.
And before that, he was pummeling Tao.
He even cut his blade with the Power Pole.
He let Tao land his blows so that he could analyze his moves.
(This looks like your favorite page, eh?)
The Daizenshuu 2 even clarifies that nothing Tao did affected Goku.
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
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Except both Vegeta literally stated A 19 was nothing to him in contrast to Goku who still needed to study Tao's style to beat him which proves it wouldn't be an easy match.
Also fair enough about the Daizenshuu I drop my argument.
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Final Flash would have never killed Cell, he was just ******* around
The_Yellow_Topaz
She/Her- 1,472
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- #95
I'm going to do bullet points because I don't want a mess of a reply.
- Tien and Roshi are even, Roshi managed to hurt Tien. Full Power Tien still got parried
The parry is not really that relevant, he parried a single punch and got immediately overwhelmed by Tien's superior speed, and strength!
It's clear that Tien is leagues above that version of Roshi, there is no point arguing otherwise. The fact they were even before either of them fought seriously is not a relevant factor, this usually happens at the beginning of most fights in classic before one side decides to fight seriously and overwhelm the opponent (Unless they're truly evenly matched)
In this case, Full Power Tien is more powerful than Roshi at that point, and the latter couldn't land a hit on him, it's clear that Roshi would need to use more power to match Tien. This is the only thing I'm arguing for!
P.S: I said Roshi managed to land blows on Tien due to superior experience and skill as a fighter (since we know Tien is faster)! Not that he managed to hurt him via superior skill! That statement wouldn't have made any sense
- Tien was not holding back physically, he was only holding back his abilities.
It's evident he got faster, after all Roshi didn't even manage to keep up for more than one panel.
It's evident he got stronger, one attack made Roshi's nose bleed, none of the previous hits did that.
Both factors are seen in the same page.
Saying Tien wasn't holding back physically is weird considering how well Roshi was doing at the beginning and how bad he was doing at the end
I might've misinterpreted that one so please correct me!
- Roshi says that he would probably lose, not definitely. You're ignoring the line. Tien never said he was going to win because of Roshi's performance
No, no, I acknowledge the line! Please calmly read my OP again, I said that the line informs us that Roshi would probably lose the battle had it kept going!
But, judging by how Tien was overpowering and nearly outspeeding Roshi at the very end, the line only makes sense if Roshi is including an eventual use of his full power, because if Roshi refused to use more power than he did during the tournament, defeat would be certain, not probable!
I'm using the line to argue that Tien scales to MAX Power Roshi, at least physically!
About the second part, you did say Tien knew about Roshi not going all out, and still claimed he would have won. The only thing Tien could base himself off is the very fight they had! It can only be about Roshi's performance in the ring, and even acknowledging his eventual full power.
Roshi later confirms that his assumption is likely true, so there is no point in arguing that imo
- Tien was not talking about MAX Power Kamehameha when he said he wasn't at full power.
- Roshi had a Power Level of 139 when facing Tien. He had a power level of 180 when fighting King Piccolo at full power.
Pre-send EDIT: Nevermind, this is repeated in the Daizenshuu. Carry on.
PSST, THIS IS IMPORTANT.
Sorry to burst your bubble tempest, but 180 is the power level of Roshi when he fires the Original Kamehameha.
The visual is just misleading, but thankfully the text is there.
Sorry to burst your bubble tempest, but 180 is the power level of Roshi when he fires the Original Kamehameha.
The visual is just misleading, but thankfully the text is there.
- You shouldn't assume that every statement is referring exclusively to AP, there's speed and skill.
Of course techniques would play a major part, but I'm including physicals, not making it all about 'em! Ah, and of course, as a UES, if Tien is faster, he is probably stronger and more durable as well.
PSST, THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT SECTION OF THE RESPONSE.
- MAX Power Kamehameha is only said to be used at Chapter 51, so Chapter 14's isn't a MAX Power Kamehameha. MAX Power Kamehameha is referred as a technique. There is no evidence that Super Kamehameha is stronger than MAX Power Kamehameha.
I do have evidence that MAX Power Kamehameha is just a regular Kamehameha. The Daizenshuu 7 also often refers to mundane variations as "it's own technique", as I'll show you below
- I wouldn't say it's fair to use the fact Daizenshuu refers to MAX Power as a technique as an argument, when the guide goes as far as listing a mispronunciation of "Kamehameha" as it's own separate technique. I believe the point is null
- I'll be listing examples of the Moon-Busting Kamehameha being listed as a regular Kamehameha:
- During Daizenshuu 2: Story Guide, the MAX Power Kamehameha is not listed as a new version of the technique at all, as you can see in the Special Attacks section. You can see that it's not listed as a new technique during the 21st Budokai Tenkaichi.
- Super Kamehameha, however, is listed as a stronger version of the Kamehameha, it includes the one used as 21st Budokai that shattered the moon since it was all bundled up in the same category
- Dragon Ball: Bouken Special cites the Kamehameha that destroyed the moon as a normal Kamehameha. Translation.
- Daizenshuu again cites the moon busting Kamehameha as just a Kamehameha.
- El Manga Legendario, the "spanish guide I love" also lists Roshi's moon busting wave as a regular Kamehameha. Translation.
- Dragon Ball: Bouken Special again explains that the MAX Power Kamehameha is just the maximum output of the regular version of the technique. Translation.
- During Daizenshuu 2: Story Guide, the MAX Power Kamehameha is not listed as a new version of the technique at all, as you can see in the Special Attacks section. You can see that it's not listed as a new technique during the 21st Budokai Tenkaichi.
- "misuse the definition of tank"
- Some examples of Kamehameha being a finishing move/harming high tier opponents
But still I don't think your examples outweight mine, we have evidence on both sides, situations where a wave is not enough to kill someone, and the opposite.
- The gap is at least 10x
MAX Power Roshi's physicals are not High 8-C.
I'd say it's "at most 10x".
MAX Power Roshi is stronger than regular Goku, who is relative to regular Roshi.
Wow, this is done! I did a lot of research to reply to this man! In the next post, I'll prove that Tien is stronger than the Roshi that destroyed the moon! I'm adding all these infos to the OP too.
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I agree, I feel like there should be a rule on this
The_Yellow_Topaz
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Just realized most of my links are not showing up, I'm reuploading and changing them in a minute.
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@CloverDragon03 @AKM sama @DemonGodMitchAubin @UchihaSlayer96 @Maverick_Zero_X @Migue79 @XSOULOFCINDERX Your evaluations here would be appreciated.
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
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He wasn't taking it seriously due to regen? Might be possible but no idea how to prove that.
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I'll post my counter-argument here once I've got time today. Just a bit busy.
The_Yellow_Topaz
She/Her- 1,472
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All links are updated.
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Basically settles it, no?
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
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I think the problem is that people aren't totally convinced that this scales to physicals though as far as power is concerned 21nd Roshi<Goku after Korin< 22nd Roshi<= Tien and Goku at least from what I have understood as Korin is the first to state that Goku has far surpassed his teacher and Roshi also feels that's the case after seeing him which motivates him to train so as not to be left behind.
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Read through all of this. So if I understand correctly, MAX Kamehameha is just the basic Kamehameha at full power and the Super Kamehameha is an enhanced version of the technique, and based on previous scans Piccolo Junior (who is around Goku's level) managed to endure a Super Kamehameha and come out of it without a lot of damage? As in:
At this point I don't see why I wouldn't agree with the upgrade. It's clear that the user's physicals aren't dramatically lower than the Kamehameha's power, close enough that the user can survive their own Kamehameha if fired back at them.
- Super Kamehameha is a superior version of Kamehameha and is shown to multiply the user's power level by around 3x (Against Raditz)
- MAX Kamehameha is just the full power of the basic Kamehameha
- Roshi blew up the moon with a full power basic Kamehameha
- Piccolo physically handles the power of Super Kamehameha from Goku despite being around Goku's power
- Super Kamehameha (3x Goku's Power) > MAX Kamehameha (Less than 3x Roshi's power)
At this point I don't see why I wouldn't agree with the upgrade. It's clear that the user's physicals aren't dramatically lower than the Kamehameha's power, close enough that the user can survive their own Kamehameha if fired back at them.
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The issue with the OP's argument is that a scan from a databook is not the sole thing we rely on when making judgements. We need to look at the evidence as a whole. If I had to make the choice using just the databook scan and nothing else, then sure, I'd agree with 5-C Kikoho for Tien.
But context from the manga leads me to believe that it isn't as solid as that.
Let's start off from the beginning where Roshi gives his exposition on the Kikoho in general.
Here is referring not to Tien's power level or AP, but just the Kikoho as a general technique used by anyone. Here, it's made clear that the Kikoho is superior to the Kamehameha because it is a significantly higher drain on the user's energy to achieve a destructive force many times more powerful.
This indicates to me that if the same user were to use both the Kamehameha and the Kikoho then their Kikoho will be more powerful.
In other words;
This is backed up by the fact that we actually witness Tien use the Kamehameha himself and Master Roshi is capable of deflecting it. Yet, Goku who at this point is more or less comparable if not superior to Master Roshi and Tien, was assured that he would die if he took the Kikoho head-on which both Goku and Master Roshi agreed with.
And likewise if Master Roshi were to use the Kikoho, then his usage of it would presumably be greater than his usage of the Kamehameha too.
The reason however why I do not think he is saying "Tien's Kikoho >>> Master Roshi's Kamehameha" is because the Kamehameha is not inherently a Moon level technique. At this point in time that level of destruction has only been seen by Roshi's MAX Power Kamehameha, a special variant which is noticeably more powerful than both Master Roshi's Kamehameha and every other user of the Kamehameha too.
Such examples of their use being;
1) Goku uses the Kamehameha to damage a car.
2) Goku breaks through a wall with a Kamehameha.
3) Goku fails to break through a place of twelve-inch thick steel.
4) Goku shatters the floor of the arena with his Kamehameha. (Note: At this point Goku was low on energy so his Kamehameha wasn't as powerful as it should be, however Roshi still dodged)
5) Goku destroys a robot's head.
6) Goku kills a giant octopus.
7) Goku fails to injure Taopaipai.
8) Goku blows up a flying vehicle.
9) Goku fires straight at the arena and damages a portion of it.
10) Goku damages the Pilaf machine.
11) Yamcha's deflected Kamehameha causes an explosion and breaks through a couple of walls.
Why did I list these? Because these are all of the uses of Kamehameha prior to the debut of the Kikoho where we can see their effects, and these regular Kamehameha are what I believe the Kikoho is being compared to. Look at the amount of destruction being caused by them; none of them hold a candle to Tien's complete obliteration of the Budokai arena.
There are a couple of other statements that lead me to believe the destruction of the arena is what is important for judging Tien's feat.
In the Daizenshuu, The Kikoho is described as having destructive power "formidable enough to instantly obliterate the Tenkaichi Budokai arena."
Why would a technique that has enough power to supposedly destroy the Moon be described as being formidable enough to obliterate something as small as an arena?
Master Roshi is astonished that the arena was blown away by Tien's Kikoho.
Why would a person who can blow up the Moon be astonished by the destructive power capable of destroying the arena?
These statements only make sense if you accept that Master Roshi isn't comparing Tien's performance against the Max Power Kamehameha, but to all of the regular Kamehameha's that we've seen up to this point. None of them have displayed the level of destruction that the Kikoho has displayed.
This is why I think that only a "Possibly" or "Likely" rating is as far as it should go for Tien's rating.
Also, it should be really obvious but at this point in Dragon Ball, the Kamehameha does not scale to the user's physical statistics.
Grandpa Gohan kicked Goku at full force and did nothing, but he still tried to use the Kamehameha against him.
Goku's punches and kicks could do nothing to a brick wall, but he blasted a hole straight through it with his Kamehameha.
Just because much later than this other characters are shown to be more comparable to the Kamehameha does not mean that every character is comparable to their own blasts.
But context from the manga leads me to believe that it isn't as solid as that.
Let's start off from the beginning where Roshi gives his exposition on the Kikoho in general.
Here is referring not to Tien's power level or AP, but just the Kikoho as a general technique used by anyone. Here, it's made clear that the Kikoho is superior to the Kamehameha because it is a significantly higher drain on the user's energy to achieve a destructive force many times more powerful.
This indicates to me that if the same user were to use both the Kamehameha and the Kikoho then their Kikoho will be more powerful.
In other words;
This is backed up by the fact that we actually witness Tien use the Kamehameha himself and Master Roshi is capable of deflecting it. Yet, Goku who at this point is more or less comparable if not superior to Master Roshi and Tien, was assured that he would die if he took the Kikoho head-on which both Goku and Master Roshi agreed with.
And likewise if Master Roshi were to use the Kikoho, then his usage of it would presumably be greater than his usage of the Kamehameha too.
The reason however why I do not think he is saying "Tien's Kikoho >>> Master Roshi's Kamehameha" is because the Kamehameha is not inherently a Moon level technique. At this point in time that level of destruction has only been seen by Roshi's MAX Power Kamehameha, a special variant which is noticeably more powerful than both Master Roshi's Kamehameha and every other user of the Kamehameha too.
Such examples of their use being;
1) Goku uses the Kamehameha to damage a car.
2) Goku breaks through a wall with a Kamehameha.
3) Goku fails to break through a place of twelve-inch thick steel.
4) Goku shatters the floor of the arena with his Kamehameha. (Note: At this point Goku was low on energy so his Kamehameha wasn't as powerful as it should be, however Roshi still dodged)
5) Goku destroys a robot's head.
6) Goku kills a giant octopus.
7) Goku fails to injure Taopaipai.
8) Goku blows up a flying vehicle.
9) Goku fires straight at the arena and damages a portion of it.
10) Goku damages the Pilaf machine.
11) Yamcha's deflected Kamehameha causes an explosion and breaks through a couple of walls.
Why did I list these? Because these are all of the uses of Kamehameha prior to the debut of the Kikoho where we can see their effects, and these regular Kamehameha are what I believe the Kikoho is being compared to. Look at the amount of destruction being caused by them; none of them hold a candle to Tien's complete obliteration of the Budokai arena.
There are a couple of other statements that lead me to believe the destruction of the arena is what is important for judging Tien's feat.
In the Daizenshuu, The Kikoho is described as having destructive power "formidable enough to instantly obliterate the Tenkaichi Budokai arena."
Why would a technique that has enough power to supposedly destroy the Moon be described as being formidable enough to obliterate something as small as an arena?
Master Roshi is astonished that the arena was blown away by Tien's Kikoho.
Why would a person who can blow up the Moon be astonished by the destructive power capable of destroying the arena?
These statements only make sense if you accept that Master Roshi isn't comparing Tien's performance against the Max Power Kamehameha, but to all of the regular Kamehameha's that we've seen up to this point. None of them have displayed the level of destruction that the Kikoho has displayed.
This is why I think that only a "Possibly" or "Likely" rating is as far as it should go for Tien's rating.
Also, it should be really obvious but at this point in Dragon Ball, the Kamehameha does not scale to the user's physical statistics.
Grandpa Gohan kicked Goku at full force and did nothing, but he still tried to use the Kamehameha against him.
Goku's punches and kicks could do nothing to a brick wall, but he blasted a hole straight through it with his Kamehameha.
Just because much later than this other characters are shown to be more comparable to the Kamehameha does not mean that every character is comparable to their own blasts.
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I think Damage makes sense.
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
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Some are good arguments. Some others that try to again explain ap and aoe don't hold well especially in dragonball. The same Kamehameha that destroyed the moon also destroyed the mountain. We know because they are both full power kamehameha so they can't be anything lower than that thus feats showing smaller amounts of destruction than expected can be assumed to be ki control. As for why they show that destroying an arena is such an important deal it's mostly for the writer to feel that tien is formidable. Just a way of hyping him up. Later statements are also made for people destroying something that should be by all means logical for their power.The issue with the OP's argument is that a scan from a databook is not the sole thing we rely on when making judgements. We need to look at the evidence as a whole. If I had to make the choice using just the databook scan and nothing else, then sure, I'd agree with 5-C Kikoho for Tien.
But context from the manga leads me to believe that it isn't as solid as that.
Let's start off from the beginning where Roshi gives his exposition on the Kikoho in general.
Here is referring not to Tien's power level or AP, but just the Kikoho as a general technique used by anyone. Here, it's made clear that the Kikoho is superior to the Kamehameha because it is a significantly higher drain on the user's energy to achieve a destructive force many times more powerful.
This indicates to me that if the same user were to use both the Kamehameha and the Kikoho then their Kikoho will be more powerful.
In other words;
This is backed up by the fact that we actually witness Tien use the Kamehameha himself and Master Roshi is capable of deflecting it. Yet, Goku who at this point is more or less comparable if not superior to Master Roshi and Tien, was assured that he would die if he took the Kikoho head-on which both Goku and Master Roshi agreed with.
And likewise if Master Roshi were to use the Kikoho, then his usage of it would presumably be greater than his usage of the Kamehameha too.
The reason however why I do not think he is saying "Tien's Kikoho >>> Master Roshi's Kamehameha" is because the Kamehameha is not inherently a Moon level technique. At this point in time that level of destruction has only been seen by Roshi's MAX Power Kamehameha, a special variant which is noticeably more powerful than both Master Roshi's Kamehameha and every other user of the Kamehameha too.
Such examples of their use being;
1) Goku uses the Kamehameha to damage a car.
2) Goku breaks through a wall with a Kamehameha.
3) Goku fails to break through a place of twelve-inch thick steel.
4) Goku shatters the floor of the arena with his Kamehameha. (Note: At this point Goku was low on energy so his Kamehameha wasn't as powerful as it should be, however Roshi still dodged)
5) Goku destroys a robot's head.
6) Goku kills a giant octopus.
7) Goku fails to injure Taopaipai.
8) Goku blows up a flying vehicle.
9) Goku fires straight at the arena and damages a portion of it.
10) Goku damages the Pilaf machine.
11) Yamcha's deflected Kamehameha causes an explosion and breaks through a couple of walls.
Why did I list these? Because these are all of the uses of Kamehameha prior to the debut of the Kikoho where we can see their effects, and these regular Kamehameha are what I believe the Kikoho is being compared to. Look at the amount of destruction being caused by them; none of them hold a candle to Tien's complete obliteration of the Budokai arena.
There are a couple of other statements that lead me to believe the destruction of the arena is what is important for judging Tien's feat.
In the Daizenshuu, The Kikoho is described as having destructive power "formidable enough to instantly obliterate the Tenkaichi Budokai arena."
Why would a technique that has enough power to supposedly destroy the Moon be described as being formidable enough to obliterate something as small as an arena?
Master Roshi is astonished that the arena was blown away by Tien's Kikoho.
Why would a person who can blow up the Moon be astonished by the destructive power capable of destroying the arena?
These statements only make sense if you accept that Master Roshi isn't comparing Tien's perforamance against the Max Power Kamehameha, but to all of the regular Kamehameha's that we've seen up to this point. None of them have displayed the level of destruction that the Kikoho has displayed.
This is why I think that only a "Possibly" or "Likely" rating is as far as it should go for Tien's rating.
Also, it should be really obvious but at this point in Dragon Ball, the Kamehameha does not scale to the user's physical statistics.
Grandpa Gohan kicked Goku at full force and did nothing, but he still tried to use the Kamehameha against him.
Goku's punches and kicks could do nothing to a brick wall, but he blasted a hole straight through it with his Kamehameha.
Just because much later than this other characters are shown to be more comparable to the Kamehameha does not mean that every character is comparable to their own blasts.
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Thank you.
I can understand where people are coming from with trying to boil the powerscaling down to its most basic elements of A > B. But the context from the depicted level of power of the main cast throughout Dragon Ball prior and during the 22nd Budokai, and the exact statements given for the Kikoho leads me to believe that there is no explict connection between Tien's Kikoho and Roshi's MAX Power Kamehameha.
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
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Don't agree with you but can see why that's your stance.
The_Yellow_Topaz
She/Her- 1,472
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- Thread starter
- #110
- Even though the Databook is clear, the manga statement is not about AP.
This is not relevant. The manga statement doesn't contradict the databook, even if it doesn't complement it like you're arguing. We have a piece of definitive official evidence that tell us that the Kikoho is stronger than the Moon-Busting Kamehameha, even if you say the source material didn't say anything about that, we can simply treat them as two separate statements.
One stating Kikoho is a more potent technique than the Kamehameha,
One stating Tien's Kikoho is stronger than anything else in the series.
They don't clash, so you can't claim that the manga statement influences your decision, it shouldn't. This is still one piece of definitive evidence, so all that matter is your counter-arguments to 5-C itself.
- I think Kikoho is being compared to these regular Kamehameha.
- He just destroyed an arena
Sorry Damage, but I must insist that AoE is not relevant to this, nor is it a defeater of 5-C Kikoho. You asked how is a technique that has enough power to destroy the moon only blow up an arena,
This is the AP vs DC debate all over again, and I'm pretty sure you know the basics. Kikoho's stronger than Roshi's Kamehameha, doesn't need to have the same destructive capacity, and it's a quirk of the technique that it's focused on a very specific area. Kikoho does not have the range to destroy the moon, it only has enough power to damage moon level characters.
4-C Tien's Shin Kikoho destroys the same amount of land.
5-B Tien's Kikoho too.
This simply cannot be the reason why you discard this.
- Why would a person who can blow up the Moon be astonished by the destructive power capable of destroying the arena?
- The Kamehameha does not scale to the user's physical statistics.
Serlock_Holmes
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That huge gap was mostly my problem. They can't be billion of times apart. Maybe ten times would make sense but billions?
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It's definitely not though.
We've seen Roshi performing a Kamehameha regularly. The MAX Power Kamehameha is undoubtedly more powerful.
It is a Kamehameha. It is not a normal Kamehameha.
You misunderstand my argument if you think that I'm saying that Tien's destruction of the arena is an explicit limiter on his power.
I don't agree. I think it has a very straightforward explanation which I've given.
Also, remember that this is just a tournament fight... Roshi isn't going to whip out a 5-C blast and vaporize his students or rivals. This isn't life or death.
The_Yellow_Topaz
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- "It's definitely not, it's more powerful".
- "Tien's destruction of the arena is not an explicit limiter on his power"
This is fair, the problem is that Dragon Ball is filled with these kind of plot-induced stupid statements to create tension throughout the story, like;
- King Piccolo's ability to destroy cities being highlighted as "very powerful". At this point, Moon level has become a consistent thing.
- Piccolo Junior saying he can destroy the entire arena and everyone being shocked, even though Tien's feat is a thing, and again, he is moon level.
- And the several times where a planet busting attack was considered relevant and powerful despite the fact people have been capable of doing that since the Saiyan Saga.
- I think it has a very straightforward explanation
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I believe that Tien is only "supposed to be stronger" than Roshi without Roshi's full power.
I understand your perspective of "Roshi has access to his full power anytime he wants, so he would have used it", but I don't agree that this is what Tien is being compared to by Roshi.
And since I also have reason to believe that the Kamehameha can be stronger than the user's own capabilities without it, saying that Tien does not surpass Master Roshi's MAX Power Kamehameha is not a contradiction.
I don't think it's fair to discard these other instances too in favor of a narrative that "Everyone must scale to the highest possible value; no contradictions or anti-feats allowed."
That's why the "Possibly 5-C" is a compromise between throwing the scaling out altogether or relying solely on scaling when it is contradicted by other statements.
If this "sin" of Dragon Ball is particularly consistent then maybe not every single statement is meaningless here. I think there's a larger argument to be made for how we treat each individual scene and the context of them.
Let's not forget that particularly early on, Dragon Ball has a ton of gag comedy to it. Hence why we have a scene of Goku climbing his power pole to the Moon when it is later repeatedly established that Goku can't survive in space.
Master Roshi blowing up the Moon could be judged super-critically through this lens and said that Toriyama just wrote it because it would be funny and cool. Look, I think it's fine to keep Roshi's feat around and acknowledge that it is a feat that he has performed. I think that it is wrong to try and scale everyone to it when the feats, statements and narrative don't fully support it.
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On a baseline level, as I said last thread, this makes sense. However, Tien and at bare minimum Goku are explicitly said to be comparable to Master Roshi, and it’s even outright said multiple times by post 21st Ten. that Goku likely has already surpassed 21st Ten. Roshi.The issue with the OP's argument is that a scan from a databook is not the sole thing we rely on when making judgements. We need to look at the evidence as a whole. If I had to make the choice using just the databook scan and nothing else, then sure, I'd agree with 5-C Kikoho for Tien.
But context from the manga leads me to believe that it isn't as solid as that.
Let's start off from the beginning where Roshi gives his exposition on the Kikoho in general.
Here is referring not to Tien's power level or AP, but just the Kikoho as a general technique used by anyone. Here, it's made clear that the Kikoho is superior to the Kamehameha because it is a significantly higher drain on the user's energy to achieve a destructive force many times more powerful.
This indicates to me that if the same user were to use both the Kamehameha and the Kikoho then their Kikoho will be more powerful.
In other words;
As I previously stated, last Thread: “False. Roshi comments he has trained to increase his power considerably so to as not lose to Goku, and when watching Goku fight freely admits Goku may be too much. Yamcha also comments that Roshi has improved and polished himself further. Mind you, fighters at this stage of the story can already deduce how much power you have whilst holding back. This seen with Goku, (who then claims the battle between them is uncertain, twice), Tien, and displayed multiple times in the thread, Roshi himself.
All of these fighters are aware that Roshi blew up the Moon, mind you, as RIGHT BEFORE his fight with Tien, there is a whole gag dedicated to HIM POINTING OUT/REMEMBERING HAVING BLOWN UP THE MOON. (Of which both Tien AND Goku watched). This is when he uses his Hypnosis to reverse Man-Wolf's Werewolf Form. And recall that in this fight, Roshi quits because Tien's power is SO ASTOUNDING (which he saw in a mere Kamehameha Wave), that it ASSURES TO HIM the next Generation is strong enough to defend the Earth.”
On top of that, Topaz just provided evidence suggesting the 180 PL is about the Moon Bust. At this time, Tien is explicitly equal to that Master Roshi with his own PL of 180.
Again, this does not make sense or even matter when their actual respective powers without the techniques are explicitly equal, with Tien even being superior. It would mean, by your own logic, that Tien should still be Moon Level. It should also be noted that Tienshinhan’s “basic” Kamehameha Wave genuinely surprised Roshi at its size and power anyway, as that is what explicitly made him quit the match. Essentially, the example doesn’t track because Roshi himself is impressed and even says that it gives him the confidence that the next generation can protect Earth.
Uhm, did you forget that Tien explicitly held back on this Kikoho anyway? Since Tien’s holding back here, and Roshi, as said in my previous comment last thread, can derive the level of power you operate on without even seeing more than a fraction of it, his words still hold more weight, actually. Not to mention, as said before, the Kikoho is a “localized **** you beam,” so this doesn’t prove anything whatsoever.The reason however why I do not think he is saying "Tien's Kikoho >>> Master Roshi's Kamehameha" is because the Kamehameha is not inherently a Moon level technique. At this point in time that level of destruction has only been seen by Roshi's MAX Power Kamehameha, a special variant which is noticeably more powerful than both Master Roshi's Kamehameha and every other user of the Kamehameha too.
Such examples of their use being;
1) Goku uses the Kamehameha to damage a car.
2) Goku breaks through a wall with a Kamehameha.
3) Goku fails to break through a place of twelve-inch thick steel.
4) Goku shatters the floor of the arena with his Kamehameha. (Note: At this point Goku was low on energy so his Kamehameha wasn't as powerful as it should be, however Roshi still dodged)
5) Goku destroys a robot's head.
6) Goku kills a giant octopus.
7) Goku fails to injure Taopaipai.
8) Goku blows up a flying vehicle.
9) Goku fires straight at the arena and damages a portion of it.
10) Goku damages the Pilaf machine.
11) Yamcha's deflected Kamehameha causes an explosion and breaks through a couple of walls.
Why did I list these? Because these are all of the uses of Kamehameha prior to the debut of the Kikoho where we can see their effects, and these regular Kamehameha are what I believe the Kikoho is being compared to. Look at the amount of destruction being caused by them; none of them hold a candle to Tien's complete obliteration of the Budokai arena.
There are a couple of other statements that lead me to believe the destruction of the arena is what is important for judging Tien's feat.
In the Daizenshuu, The Kikoho is described as having destructive power "formidable enough to instantly obliterate the Tenkaichi Budokai arena."
Why would a technique that has enough power to supposedly destroy the Moon be described as being formidable enough to obliterate something as small as an arena?
Master Roshi is astonished that the arena was blown away by Tien's Kikoho.
Why would a person who can blow up the Moon be astonished by the destructive power capable of destroying the arena?
These statements only make sense if you accept that Master Roshi isn't comparing Tien's performance against the Max Power Kamehameha, but to all of the regular Kamehameha's that we've seen up to this point. None of them have displayed the level of destruction that the Kikoho has displayed.
I’m neutral on this because I always believed to be an invention later within the series. Particularly with Kami and Popo’s training, as it was specifically about increasing your body’s ability without actually increasing their “power” via gaining superior understanding of movement, motion, and stillness, (and one’s own energy) something that we know is reflected in energy as well when done right.
My main gripe is about Tien’s Kikoho and 22nd Ten. Goku’s power when they go all out for beam attacks.
Edit: Essentially, your counter argument is not internally consistent, and the series makes it pretty clear already that Goku, Tien, and Roshi are all relative at this point, with them all being superior to his 21st Ten. Self.
The_Yellow_Topaz
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Okay, read your own statement.
"He is stronger than Roshi. But he isn't stronger than Roshi's full power."
Then he is not stronger than Roshi. That doesn't make sense, it has been stated several times in several ways that Tien is stronger than Roshi, he can't be weaker than Roshi's full power, because otherwise he has NOT surpassed Roshi, otherwise he is NOT stronger than Roshi.
Nope. Kamehameha can be imbued with more energy, and that's pretty much it. Even Super Kamehameha, which is far stronger than Kamehameha, is barely a 2.2x increase.
You argued it yourself, Kikoho is a stronger technique and has a drawback that even the MAX Power Kamehameha doesn't, Roshi even goes to the length stating that the drawback is caused by the sheer amount of energy it takes.
Kikoho > Any Kamehameha before this point. (in terms of efficiency).
It was going to vaporize Goku who is comparable to Tien
5-C is the single most supported rating in the entirety of Early Dragon Ball. I can pull out the receipts here, it's overwhelming.
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I see a lot of people who blatantly haven't read this thread or the last just blindly agreeing to the OP, the opposition to the OP IS NOT arguing that dragon ball characters are not moon level or that say raditz or some shit is "7-A, 5-C with ki". I implore all of you to actually read King's post above because what he is arguing isn't even against the fundamentals of Ki it's the shaky ass misinterpreted justifications for the moon level scale and as far as I've seen no one has had a genuine debunk to his points here about 22nd Budokai scaling. And I'll reiterate here King AGREES that 23nd Budokai Goku and Piccolo Jr. are 5-C and that the moon level scale exist there and prior its literally undeniable considering Goku was fully going for the kill with the Super Kamehameha and Piccolo survived albeit while hurt and sweating bullets after.Tien's attack at max power can scale to the Max Power Kamehameha, that's fine.
This is what I disagree with
Alright, I need to explain to you the issues with this argument.
This is a gross misrepresentation of the fight.
First of all, they were dead even for the entirety of the fight. That's that.
"By having better experience". Now I know where your brain lies.
We aren't scaling skill. We're scaling strength.
Roshi being able to hurt Tien is a strength factor. You can be more skilled and massively weaker. Roshi and Tien were trading blows.
Tien didn't hold back significantly. He didn't use any attacks. When he was "serious", he started blinding him, he started copying attacks, but he was still on the level of where he got parried by him.
On top of that, the further explanation is below.
You just ignored their statement to fulfill your own interpretation of the scenario at hand.
Roshi says that he would probably lose, and Tien sweated thinking that he pushed him that far without using his full power.
Tien never said that in his life.
You know the funny thing?
It's stated by Tien that Roshi wasn't at full power yet. Tien even sweat at the thought.
"He was talking about his Max Power Kamehameha" he didn't even know about his Max Power Kamehameha.
The casual Roshi who fought Tien had a power level of 139.
But when he's serious (like against King Piccolo) without the use of his Max Power Kamehameha, he gained a power level of 180, the same power level as Goku and Tien.
Roshi when serious and not holding back is equal to Tien and Goku.
You're hyping up how Tien wasn't at full power until the end where Roshi never even managed to get to full power.
Here's an issue you guys have.
You see a statement that is tied to skill, speed, technique, etc. then you tie it all to AP
Roshi's Kamehameha couldn't work on him because he reflected it back.
Tien could blind him.
Tien could copy all his moves.
Tien has better stamina.
Tien's eye can see through his highspeed movement.
But because of all that, it's now interpreted as "Tien punches harder"?
This is wrong, and I'll explain why below at the bottom
Based on what?
You misuse the definition of tank a lot.
Tanking an attack is when an attack doesn't even phase you. Those ***** phased him. They badly hurt him. They sent him flying.
Goku did not tank anything from Raditz. Every Raditz hit violently hurt Goku, and even only 2 hits was enough to make him struggle to rise.
Goku's Kamehameha was far stronger than his base self, as Raditz said his power level was skyrocketing from it.
Goku's Kamehameha completely killed Tambourine who withstood a bunch of hits from Goku.
Goku's Kamehameha was capable of vaporizing the upper half of Cell's body, same Cell who withstood dozens of hits from Goku.
Goku's Kamehameha was capable of blasting a hole through Fused Zamasu who withstood several hits from Goku.
Saying Goku is relative than his Kamehameha is ridiculous.
On top of that, stop trying to sale regular Roshi to his Max Power Kamehameha.
This is incredibly incorrect.
Roshi does not have a "MAX Power form", he has a full power form where his body gets busky and everything
He can utilize his kamehameha in that form, which is strong enough to destroy a mountain
But then he can use his MAX Power Kamehameha, a specialized Kamehameha
Which is strong enough to destroy the moon.
Which is why they say the first time he uses this technique is Chapter 51, even though he did a kamehameha in his full power state during chapter 14.
This is exactly why when he did his first Kamehameha, it was just a regular Kamehameha, but he said Maximum Power for the one that destroyed the moon.
On top of that, you keep saying that it's close in power.
It was stated to be able to have killed Oozaru Goku by Yamcha, and it's also stated in the Spanish Guidebook you love that it was the strongest thing in the series at that time, scaling it above Oozaru Goku who's 10x Regular Goku, meaning there's at least a 10x gap between his physicals and his technique at that time.
It's different than a regular kamehameha, and a regular kamehameha doesn't scale close to physicals.
The point being made isn't that in dragon ball no one scales to their ki its that they don't usually scale themselves to their own super **** all moves and in Roshi's case I agree with King and yall are absolutely cooking yallselves cause Roshi physicals without his Full Power musclar state literally can't handle his moon levek blast and he also vice versa needs that muscular state to use all of his muscles power to release his MAX kamehameha which means he can't normally do so.
And as far as destructive capacity goes once again KT is absolutely right there and so is the opposition neither are you are inherently wrong. The if you interpert kikoho destroying the ring as what Master Roshi calls a power with basically more destructive capacity or as Master Roshi just saying its stronger than the Kamehameha both are correct. Ignoring all previous scaling chains in the series aside from 5-C and 7-B one's master Roshi did quite literally 95%, of the kamehameha's in the series up to this point don't even breach any levels past 9-A destructive capacity amd again this is only IGNORING previous scaling chains looking purely at the blast feats themself and Ik I've did the calcs hell the dodon ray was 9-A in calcs. So tien launching his Kikoho ranged for me from 8-A to 7-C depending on if he vaporized the rock which would again fit Roshi's point of it having more destructive capacity than normal kamehameha in the series up to this point.
This isn't for me to claim one side of the other but like we also aren't gonna sit here and be completely blind and skip through the arguments above or twist shit like we don't understand these simple concepts on the wiki.
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I don't know how to rephrase this to you... It does make sense to me.
Roshi saying he'd be beaten in a tournament fight, is not him saying that Tien outclases him in every possible aspect.
I'm in agreement that the Kikoho was vastly superior to Goku's durability.
I'm not trying to remove the 5-C rating completely...
@RedReaper I'll try to respond to your post later today if I have time.
The_Yellow_Topaz
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No one in this thread is coming even close to saying that skinny Roshi's physicals are as strong as his Buff form. We're arguing Tien is stronger than Buff Roshi.
Serlock_Holmes
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But Roshi who did the moon busting is far below both tien and goku and the roshi that fought them. Literally everyone of the three beats him easily as Goku and Tien can tango with a trained Roshi. So saying that a prior Roshi somehow has power that people that surpass later even stronger Roshi don't scale to is weird given how Dragonball operates.
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