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SSJ2 Gohan should NOT be 2x stronger than Super Perfect Cell

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The_Yellow_Topaz

The_Yellow_Topaz

She/Her
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I won't color code this revision, don't worry.
​

Introduction​

This revision plans to change the current scaling chain of canon Dragon Ball, removing the 2x multiplier Super Saiyan 2 Gohan has over Super Perfect Cell.
Introducing the arguments presented in the profile for such scaling, I will then attempt to dismantle its logic throughly.

Now then, according to the profiles, Gohan is twice as strong as SP.Cell because it was stated he had half his ki, therefore, half his power.

This is it.
​


Counter-Evidence​

1. Ki amount is not directly related to power output​

This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, but the reserves you have inside your body does not relate to the size of the ki you release in your attacks. Just because you lost half of your Ki, it shouldn't mean you can only use half your power, but rather, you have half of your stamina for the remaining battle. I have several examples where characters can output power far greater than their own in a single burst, but still aren't drained of Ki.

2. Super Perfect Cell is half as strong as SSJ2 Gohan, but can harm him? And Gohan can't blitz him?​

Powerscaling is a narrative tool Dragon Ball has used quite effectively to this point. We know for a fact that someone who is half as strong as you are CANNOT hurt you effectively, yet, Super Perfect Cell completely breaks Gohan's arm? Gohan wasn't caught off-guard, he can (and had to) raise his own Ki to rush to Vegeta and save him. Now, I'll show examples of 2x multipliers being enough to no-sell attacks.
This has been consistent this far. This also brings a problem of scaling, as this would imply SSJ Gohan is just as strong as Super Perfect Cell, which we know it's not true. In fact, he's not even stronger than regular Perfect Cell.

3. It was stated otherwise several times​

I don't know how you all missed that, but it has been stated several times that Gohan was using his full power for the Father-Son Kamehameha wave.
I think I've made my point.

Gohan is scales directly to Super Perfect Cell.



Agree: @Ednaxel2, @Hasty12345, @Nierre, @Damage3245 (1)
Neutral:
Disagree:
 
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SlendVeny said:
That said, "all his might" only means everything he's currently able to muster.
Click to expand...

You are unequivocally wrong.​

All of his might means all of his might. There shouldn't be a debate about it.

"All his might" encapsulates the entirety of an individual's might. To suggest otherwise is to dilute language itself. Consider the semantic implications of "all his might." It signifies the utilization of every single ounce of strength. Moreover, to contend that using "all his might" could encompass anything less than the complete reservoir of an individual's strength is to fundamentally misconstrue the essence of the phrase. If someone were to operate at only half their potential strength, they would by definition not be employing "all their might." The term "half" inherently denotes a fraction, a partial utilization of power. Therefore, to assert that someone operating at half their strength is exerting "all their might" would not only be linguistically incorrect but conceptually incongruous. It's inherently different from "Gave it all they had", which implies only the strength currently available.

Quite literally, if you consider Gohan only has half of his power available, it's impossible to consider the extent of that half "all of his might".
 
I don't agree with that semantical argument because context matter in that statement.

If I were injured in a race and pushed through, and someone said that I gave it all my might, as Slend said, that would mean I had used all that I was able to, hence all the might that I'm currently able to muster.
 
Nierre said:
I don't agree with that semantical argument because context matter in that statement.
Click to expand...
Plus, I've established a precedent where Ki cost is not directly related to how much power you can output.
Nierre said:
If I were injured in a race and pushed through, and someone said that I gave it all my might, as Slend said, that would mean I had used all that I was able to, hence all the might that I'm currently able to muster.
Click to expand...
In this scenario, that hypothetical someone is just incorrect.
 
While I do think establishing a flat 2x multiplier is wrong, I do think it’s equally wrong to say that amount of Ki isn’t related to power.

It’s explicitly noted by Piccolo that the reason absorbing a lot of his Ki, (he’s explicitly almost out) is worthless is because they’re able to release it in bursts that simulate more than they have. This may seem like it supports OP, but this also means the more Ki you have, the more you can burst and higher you can simulate your effective level of power. (Which we know is the case based on later events). Furthermore, we know quantity of Ki is directly related to amount outputted, because you can channel “all of it” into one **** all beam attack and entirely drain yourself, (ala SSJ Goku Vs Perfect Cell, 401 (DBZ 207), P12.1). It should also be noted that Gohan was initially holding back on top of his half Ki, and his half power did affect his output according to Piccolo (Strength Checker, 415 (DBZ 221), P10.2). Goku even agrees with Gohan’s assessment, (Strength Checker, 415 (DBZ 221), P6.2-5), but says that despite this Gohan will win anyway.

However, we also know that literally cheering someone up will improve their power. At least according to Toriyama.

“Energy, Courage, and Right-Mindedness — The word ‘energy’ [genki] is well-known, but if one asks if you do not have energy if you have even one sickness [byōki], it is difficult to come up with an answer. There are people who are healthy yet do not have any energy, and there are people who are sick, yet full of energy. Plus, even among people who have roughly the same power, for example, there were people who gritted their teeth and stood their ground when Demon King Piccolo attacked them, yet there were also people who trembled and fled. Thinking about it this way, perhaps you will understand that a variety of different ‘Ki’ are indispensable in battle. In the world of Chinese martial arts, exemplified by T’ai-chi Ch’uan, kitraining and control is given great importance.

In Dragon Ball, the dark mage Bobbidi invented a machine that measures and absorbs ki, but current science cannot measure ki levels or store it anywhere. However, when someone cheers you on, you can ‘receive energy and courage [yūki]’ from them. ‘Ki’ is something that cannot be seen with the eyes, yet it is there.”

Meaning, at least the way I’ve interpreted it:

Super Perfect Cell returns -> Gohan WAS nerfed, and had he not have been would’ve potentially had an edge, but not a quantifiable one (or vice versa, most guides agree Cell was in fact superior at this moment) -> Weakened Gohan was in fact going to lose, and was holding back -> Gohan stops holding back + Goku cheers him on, allowing Gohan to regain strength and come out on top via Yuki.

This is a long winded way of saying I agree, just through a different lenses (Gohan WAS in fact nerfed, he just was re-upped by Goku and his own mindset).
 
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The_Yellow_Topaz said:

You are unequivocally wrong.​

All of his might means all of his might. There shouldn't be a debate about it.

"All his might" encapsulates the entirety of an individual's might. To suggest otherwise is to dilute language itself. Consider the semantic implications of "all his might." It signifies the utilization of every single ounce of strength. Moreover, to contend that using "all his might" could encompass anything less than the complete reservoir of an individual's strength is to fundamentally misconstrue the essence of the phrase. If someone were to operate at only half their potential strength, they would by definition not be employing "all their might." The term "half" inherently denotes a fraction, a partial utilization of power. Therefore, to assert that someone operating at half their strength is exerting "all their might" would not only be linguistically incorrect but conceptually incongruous. It's inherently different from "Gave it all they had", which implies only the strength currently available.

Quite literally, if you consider Gohan only has half of his power available, it's impossible to consider the extent of that half "all of his might".
Click to expand...
All of his might does not mean the same as "the full sum of his peak, uninjured strength," it means "all the strength he's got on hand at the moment," a far simpler explanation. If he was beedg out, and literally just a head and torso going "tis but a scratch," and put "all his might" into a mouth beam, that would still be a correct statement, since it is what he can CURRENTLY do. Besides, even then, he overwhelmed and vaporized Cell with a one handed Kamehameha, so even if that was his peak, that's stronger than Cell.
 
RedReaper said:
I do think it’s equally wrong to say that amount of Ki isn’t related to power
Click to expand...
To answer this, I said it isn't a direct relation, meaning it's not 1:1, and the amount you have left isn't necessarily equal to what you can release in short-bursts. I think your scans paint this perfectly. But regardless, we agree with the results.

SlendVeny said:
All of his might does not mean the same as "the full sum of his peak, uninjured strength," it means "all the strength he's got on hand at the moment," a far simpler explanation. If he was beedg out, and literally just a head and torso going "tis but a scratch," and put "all his might" into a mouth beam, that would still be a correct statement, since it is what he can CURRENTLY do. Besides, even then, he overwhelmed and vaporized Cell with a one handed Kamehameha, so even if that was his peak, that's stronger than Cell.
Click to expand...
Honestly, thinking over it, "all of his might" may mean both, if you interpret it literally using semantics, as I explained earlier, I think that's a fair assessement given I've already shown precedents where a 2x multiplier is not possible and that you can use higher quality of Ki while spending a small amount of Ki. But even then.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
To answer this, I said it isn't a direct relation, meaning it's not 1:1, and the amount you have left isn't necessarily equal to what you can release in short-bursts. I think your scans paint this perfectly. But regardless, we agree with the results.


Honestly, thinking over it, "all of his might" may mean both, if you interpret it literally using semantics, as I explained earlier, I think that's a fair assessement given I've already shown precedents where a 2x multiplier is not possible and that you can use higher quality of Ki while spending a small amount of Ki. But even then.
Click to expand...
I thought the reason we used a 2x multiplier was because he was using a 2-handed technique with one hand.
 
SlendVeny said:
I thought the reason we used a 2x multiplier was because he was using a 2-handed technique with one hand.
Click to expand...
Kamehameha has been fired from the feet and mouth as well, Namek Goku himself used a one handed version against Frieza, I don't think that affects the power level


As per OP, I also agree that all his might there was, in context, referring to what he had left, but I also agree thay normal ssj2 Gohan wasn't 2x SPC normally, SPC messed him arm up badly
 
Agree with SSJ2 Gohan not being 2x more powerful than SPC.

It wouldn’t make sense for MSSJ Gohan to be as strong a SPC. I get he didn’t wanna fight PC but the fight clearly depicts Cell as superior to MSSJ Gohan. The SSJ2 multiplier added with an insane rage boost fits well with SPCs massive zenkai boost.

So

4-C marks begins with MSSJ Goku, MSSJ Teen Gohan, and Perfect Cell

4-B begins with SPC, SSJ2 Enraged Teen Gohan and onwards except buu saga characters have their AP values halved.
 
TimeTrapperFanBoy said:
4-C marks begins with MSSJ Goku, MSSJ Teen Gohan, and Perfect Cell

4-B begins with SPC, SSJ2 Enraged Teen Gohan and onwards except buu saga characters have their AP values halved.
Click to expand...
SSJ Gohan and PC are still solar system level. Buu Saga Gohan as a SSJ2 is currently accepted as being superior to SSJ1 Buu Saga Goku, Gohan as a SSJ1 was going to loose against Dabura who is equal to PC, even with those divisions from the calc they're still 4-B
 
Ednaxel2 said:
SSJ Gohan and PC are still solar system level. Buu Saga Gohan as a SSJ2 is currently accepted as being superior to SSJ1 Buu Saga Goku, Gohan as a SSJ1 was going to loose against Dabura who is equal to PC, even with those divisions from the calc they're still 4-B
Click to expand...
That doesn’t make sense. MSSJ Goku (4-C) was giving Perfect Cell (4-B) a rough time, Cell even states that he lost a lot of strength during his fight with Goku. How can a 4-C do that to a 4-B? Is MSSJ Cell Games Goku supposed to be 4-B? Is Perfect Cell 4-B when he ate that sensu bean?
 
TimeTrapperFanBoy said:
That doesn’t make sense. MSSJ Goku (4-C) was giving Perfect Cell (4-B) a rough time, Cell even states that he lost a lot of strength during his fight with Goku. How can a 4-C do that to a 4-B? Is MSSJ Cell Games Goku supposed to be 4-B? Is Perfect Cell 4-B when he ate that sensu bean?
Click to expand...
Where is 4-B Cell coming from?

On the profiles it looks like Cell is 4-B for being superior to SSJ Goku (who is 4-C) and SSJ Gohan (who is also superior to Goku who is 4-C).
 
Damage3245 said:
Where is 4-B Cell coming from?

On the profiles it looks like Cell is 4-B for being superior to SSJ Goku (who is 4-C) and SSJ Gohan (who is also superior to Goku who is 4-C).
Click to expand...
4-B Cell comes from being equal to dabura,who fights with SS Gohan who is weaker than before but should be half as strong as his super saiyan 2 self who is still stronger than buu saga super saiyan goku,who in super saiyan 2 is stronger than cell saga SS2 Gohan.
Edit:made a error on which Gohan form Dabura fought.
 
So it seems like the issue is with backscaling then.

If we just avoid scaling between SSJ Gohan in the Buu Saga and SSJ2 Gohan in the Cell Saga, then we should be good?
 
I mean to be fair we know cell was holding back and he does unleash his full power after the fight with Goku iirc(granted by then Gohan had surpassed him).
 
TimeTrapperFanBoy said:
That doesn’t make sense. MSSJ Goku (4-C) was giving Perfect Cell (4-B) a rough time, Cell even states that he lost a lot of strength during his fight with Goku. How can a 4-C do that to a 4-B? Is MSSJ Cell Games Goku supposed to be 4-B? Is Perfect Cell 4-B when he ate that sensu bean?
Click to expand...
Cell was fighting at a suppressed state against Goku, which is why they were on the same tier and why he lost energy there, only ssj2 Gohan made him go full power
 
Should we also restrict downscaling from the ssj2 form for cell games gohan? since his enraged scaling only applies to that

So just: High 5-A, 4-C as a Super Saiyan, 4-B as a Super Saiyan 2 with Rage Power
 
Jaakor48 said:
Cell was fighting at a suppressed state against Goku, which is why they were on the same tier and why he lost energy there, only ssj2 Gohan made him go full power
Click to expand...
I get Cell wasn’t fighting at full power, but Goku scales to 163 Quettatons while Perfect Cell scales to 526 Foe according to the new AP Ratings. A Foe is roughly 24,000 Quettatons. A Foe is 147x stronger than MSSJ Goku and Perfect Cell is over 500x a Foe. Doing the Math, this means that Perfect Cell is over 77,300x stronger than MSSJ Goku. I’m pretty sure Cell wasn’t THAT suppressed.
 
Eseseso said:
SSJ2 Gohan scaling fully to Super Perfect Cell and vice versa makes sense.
Click to expand...
It really doesn't. The moment an injured and weakened Gohan started going all out, his one-handed Kamehameha overwhelmed Cell's two-handed Kamehameha and vaped him instantly.
 
SlendVeny said:
It really doesn't. The moment an injured and weakened Gohan started going all out, his one-handed Kamehameha overwhelmed Cell's two-handed Kamehameha and vaped him instantly.
Click to expand...
The x2 multiplier also makes no sense, and we know Kamehameha's of that magnitude WOULD be greater than one's self durability, given Goku could blow up Cell's torso with that move
 
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