Tien and co. back to 5-C (Dragon Ball Revision)

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I love it when trying to inform, instead of being outright and genuinely informative like Adem was, you choose "bitchy" and "Arrogant"

I'll take you seriously when ya drop the attitude of "my interpretation is the only one acceptable!" Because that's how your coming off, at least be a classy dick, come on!

And yet you haven't proven anything like that, you've proven that some KI shit is weaker.

If you know nothing about how the site treats Dragon Ball, it's on you to make research before coming here to give your input

I can admit that my approach wasn't the best though​

But still, I shouldn't have to explain the basics of Ki, it's on the verse page.​

 

[TheGreatBanana]

The OP is currently the one who is making sense I agree with the proposals.

 

[speedster352]

I agree wit the op proposal

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I agree with you

 

[KingTempest]

Tien's attack at max power can scale to the Max Power Kamehameha, that's fine.

5-C Physicals​

This is what I disagree with

I'm simply going to repeat the argument I put up on the downgrade thread to disagree, as, shocker, it wasn't addressed at any point.​

Alright, I need to explain to you the issues with this argument.

I'd like to point out that Tien was never going at full power against Roshi until the very end where he basically dominated the entire fight, Roshi never managed to even hurt him in any way once during their battle.

So @KingTempest's comments about Tien struggling against Base Roshi are just contradicted by the source material!
Roshi maybe got one or two hits in by having better experience, and Tien holding back significantly since he didn't even know Roshi would be that strong, Roshi doesn't land a single hit after Tien goes full power.

This is a gross misrepresentation of the fight.

First of all, they were dead even for the entirety of the fight. That's that.
"By having better experience". Now I know where your brain lies.

We aren't scaling skill. We're scaling strength.
Roshi being able to hurt Tien is a strength factor. You can be more skilled and massively weaker. Roshi and Tien were trading blows.

Tien didn't hold back significantly. He didn't use any attacks. When he was "serious", he started blinding him, he started copying attacks, but he was still on the level of where he got parried by him.

On top of that, the further explanation is below.

Considering this, it's incredibly weird to consider that the line where Roshi says he would probably lose is referring to his base form, it makes no sense! Roshi didn't stand a chance in base against a full power Tien, the correct statement would be that he would definitely lose had the battle kept going,

You just ignored their statement to fulfill your own interpretation of the scenario at hand.

Roshi says that he would probably lose, and Tien sweated thinking that he pushed him that far without using his full power.

Tien even says as much based on Roshi's performance, the only thing that could even give Roshi a slight chance at victory would be his Max Power form.

Tien never said that in his life.

Tien should scale to MAX Power Roshi regardless.

You know the funny thing?
It's stated by Tien that Roshi wasn't at full power yet. Tien even sweat at the thought.
"He was talking about his Max Power Kamehameha" he didn't even know about his Max Power Kamehameha.

The casual Roshi who fought Tien had a power level of 139.
But when he's serious (like against King Piccolo) without the use of his Max Power Kamehameha, he gained a power level of 180, the same power level as Goku and Tien.

Roshi when serious and not holding back is equal to Tien and Goku.

You're hyping up how Tien wasn't at full power until the end where Roshi never even managed to get to full power.

Roshi basically admits that he wouldn't been able to defeat Tien, verbatim. Saying he could have done it had he gone all out is just ignoring the line entirely.

Here's an issue you guys have.
You see a statement that is tied to skill, speed, technique, etc. then you tie it all to AP

Roshi's Kamehameha couldn't work on him because he reflected it back.
Tien could blind him.
Tien could copy all his moves.
Tien has better stamina.
Tien's eye can see through his highspeed movement.

But because of all that, it's now interpreted as "Tien punches harder"?

EDIT
Why should Roshi scale to his MAX POWER Kamehameha.

1. It's a regular Kamehameha. As explained by the Daizenshuu, MAX Power Kamehameha is simply a move used by MAX Power Roshi because of his muscles to withstand the energy emitted.

This is wrong, and I'll explain why below at the bottom

1. It's inferior to Super Kamehameha.

Based on what?

1. Super Kamehameha users are not 10 million times weaker than their own ki blasts. Goku's Kamehameha was slightly weaker than Raditz, yet Goku could tank some attacks from Raditz. They are not worlds apart in any way.

You misuse the definition of tank a lot.
Tanking an attack is when an attack doesn't even phase you. Those ***** phased him. They badly hurt him. They sent him flying.
Goku did not tank anything from Raditz. Every Raditz hit violently hurt Goku, and even only 2 hits was enough to make him struggle to rise.

Goku's Kamehameha was far stronger than his base self, as Raditz said his power level was skyrocketing from it.
Goku's Kamehameha completely killed Tambourine who withstood a bunch of hits from Goku.
Goku's Kamehameha was capable of vaporizing the upper half of Cell's body, same Cell who withstood dozens of hits from Goku.
Goku's Kamehameha was capable of blasting a hole through Fused Zamasu who withstood several hits from Goku.

Saying Goku is relative than his Kamehameha is ridiculous.

On top of that, stop trying to sale regular Roshi to his Max Power Kamehameha.

Another example:

This is an example where one's physicals can tank a Super Kamehameha, which is a better version of the regular Kamehameha. Piccolo has the exact same power level of Goku, however.

MAX Power Roshi with his inferior Kamehameha should scale to his own blast. Literally everyone does.

MAX Power Kamehameha is a regular Kamehameha used by someone in the MAX Power form, as the Daizenshuu explained.

This is incredibly incorrect.

Roshi does not have a "MAX Power form", he has a full power form where his body gets busky and everything

He can utilize his kamehameha in that form, which is strong enough to destroy a mountain
But then he can use his MAX Power Kamehameha, a specialized Kamehameha

Which is strong enough to destroy the moon.

Which is why they say the first time he uses this technique is Chapter 51, even though he did a kamehameha in his full power state during chapter 14.

This is exactly why when he did his first Kamehameha, it was just a regular Kamehameha, but he said Maximum Power for the one that destroyed the moon.

On top of that, you keep saying that it's close in power.
It was stated to be able to have killed Oozaru Goku by Yamcha, and it's also stated in the Spanish Guidebook you love that it was the strongest thing in the series at that time, scaling it above Oozaru Goku who's 10x Regular Goku, meaning there's at least a 10x gap between his physicals and his technique at that time.

It's different than a regular kamehameha, and a regular kamehameha doesn't scale close to physicals.

 

[Hasty12345]

Interesting, maybe this warrants a larger discussion on ki and physicals, at least with the lower power levels.

 

[Huesito88]

Interesting, maybe this warrants a larger discussion on ki and physicals, at least with the lower power levels.

Agreed if that would get resolved going through stuff like this would atleast be less packed

 

[Damage3245]

KingTempest stealing all my thunder to make my argument for me, haha. Of course I agree with his above post.

 

[FireSwordHero]

I'm agreeing with OP here because its been shown multiple times that when it comes to Dragon Ball, Ki=Physical stats. The more Ki you have, the stronger, faster, and more durable you become. If Roshi's Kamehameha could destroy a moon, then he should have a somewhat comparable level of power in his physical strikes, even if using the Kamehameha is a buildup of Ki.

That being said, I do think that Dragon Ball as a whole needs better revision when it comes to Ki and AP/Durability/Speed Ratings. As shown multiple times in Dragon Balls history, Ki levels aren't quite concistent as Ki levels usually decrease overtime due to using ki for flight or attacks, as well as taking damage as stated in the Saiyan Saga and when demonstrated by Gohan during his fight against Cell.

 

[Hasty12345]

I'm agreeing with OP here because its been shown multiple times that when it comes to Dragon Ball, Ki=Physical stats. The more Ki you have, the stronger, faster, and more durable you become. If Roshi's Kamehameha could destroy a moon, then he should have a somewhat comparable level of power in his physical strikes, even if using the Kamehameha is a buildup of Ki.

That being said, I do think that Dragon Ball as a whole needs better revision when it comes to Ki and AP/Durability/Speed Ratings. As shown multiple times in Dragon Balls history, Ki levels aren't quite concistent as Ki levels usually decrease overtime due to using ki for flight or attacks, as well as taking damage as stated in the Saiyan Saga and when demonstrated by Gohan during his fight against Cell.

Ki = physical stats?

how’s Goku 2-C with finite lifting strength?

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

You misuse the definition of tank a lot.
Tanking an attack is when an attack doesn't even phase you. Those ***** phased him. They badly hurt him. They sent him flying.
Goku did not tank anything from Raditz. Every Raditz hit violently hurt Goku, and even only 2 hits was enough to make him struggle to rise.

I am not sure to which character you are referring to, but Raditz was not hurt at all by Goku's Kamehameha wave, he caught it with no damage at all.
I suppose we can say goku Withstanding Attacks from raditz with minor damage.

Saying Goku is relative than his Kamehameha is ridiculous.

On top of that, stop trying to sale regular Roshi to his Max Power Kamehameha.

Which is strong enough to destroy the moon.


On top of that, you keep saying that it's close in power.
It was stated to be able to have killed Oozaru Goku by Yamcha, and it's also stated in the Spanish Guidebook you love that it was the strongest thing in the series at that time, scaling it above Oozaru Goku who's 10x Regular Goku, meaning there's at least a 10x gap between his physicals and his technique at that time.

It's different than a regular kamehameha, and a regular kamehameha doesn't scale close to physicals.

Goku's Kamehameha was far stronger than his base self, as Raditz said his power level was skyrocketing from it.
Goku's Kamehameha completely killed Tambourine who withstood a bunch of hits from Goku.
Goku's Kamehameha was capable of vaporizing the upper half of Cell's body, same Cell who withstood dozens of hits from Goku.
Goku's Kamehameha was capable of blasting a hole through Fused Zamasu who withstood several hits from Goku.

The evidence already presented below that ki treated as a Universal Energy System scales to physical statistic such has durability, attack potency, striking strength. See it has ki empowering their physical stats such has their durability instead of shooting it like a ki blast but amping it through their fist for example.

By Enhancing their own ki, their physical stats increases in this case the durability. Vegeta in order to defeat freeza ask's krillin to inflict damage to him to the point he would be on the brick of death, but krillin says with the power he has, he cannot hurt Vegeta. Vegeta says he will lower his power so that krillin would be able to harm him. Emptying the ki from your body exposes the more fragile physical body. Emptying the ki from your body exposes the more fragile physical body. As they should atleast be able to tank what they can dish out. And we know that there are limits to physical statistics but can be overcome with ki and the higher the ki the higher the physical stats increases.
Also, in the vs wiki page for UES (UNIVERSAL ENERGY SYSTEM), ki for the dragon ball verse is listed as using this form of energy system.

Universal Energy System: Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would also scale to all other statistics. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

ki amps his physical stats. And at the end they were both getting weaker (but even in that weaken state, piccolo jr still thinks he can beat everyone on this stage even if there were 100 of them + Kami has he is simply far stronger and roshi agrees. Even when weaken and fatigue nobody dares to fight him). Recoome tanks vegeta full power ki attacks with no damage besides his clothes, yet goku with a single elbow one shots recoome. This same recoome can sneeze away a ki attack coming from potential unlocked gohan who has a power level of over 10 000 and makes vegeta think he his kakarot himself.

 

[Huesito88]

Ki = physical stats?

how’s Goku 2-C with finite lifting strength?

That's a completely different topic (and how standards are regarding such things), with the same logic Goku should have infinite speed.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's case by case; we usually scale Ki blasts to physical stats in Dragon Ball since they share the same UES but exceptions are Final Attacks that drain most if not all their stamina to the point of being reverted until they get replenished. And it's especially calcs coming from suicide attacks that would not scale to physicals.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

Ki = physical stats?

how’s Goku 2-C with finite lifting strength?

He needs to show lifting feats on that level.
It is a common feature within fiction to feature characters capable of vastly greater physical striking strength energy outputs than what would be required to lift weights that they are repeatedly shown to struggle with. Hence Lifting Strength and Striking Strength are in general not comparable and should be evaluated separately.

However it was shown that raising your ki levels increases your lifting strength as well. Kid trunks struggles with 150 Gravity machine. But overcomes it with ease by turning into SSJ.

 

[Recon1511]

People are still denying 5-C Dragon Ball? And not scaling Ki to physicals? lmao

Anyway, agree with OP

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The evidence already presented below that ki treated as a Universal Energy System scales to physical statistic such has durability, attack potency, striking strength. See it has ki empowering their physical stats such has their durability instead of shooting it like a ki blast but amping it through their fist for example.

lemme just sneak back in here.
Normal Ki blasts are merely physical manifestations of Ki. See "Videl Learns to Fly".
The Kamehameha was designed to condense Ki into a single point, which significantly increases the user's power beyond their normal limits.

With the example that KingTempest presented, where Goku managed to pierce through Fusion Zamasu with a Kamehameha in Super Saiyan Blue, that Kamehameha needed to exceed Goku's normal strength by, at the very least, tenfold, as per his later fight with Zamasu in Perfected Blue. With Cell, according to the Daizenshuu 7, its Barrier can cancel out attacks half its strength, which means that the Instant Kamehameha needed to exceed Goku's normal strength by two-times. Same as with Raditz, his Power Level multiplied by over two-times.

Like, if Goku wraps Ki around his fist and delivers an Energy Punch or shoots a basic blast, then his strength is 1. But if he decides to gather up large amounts of Ki and concentrate all of his Ki into a single attack, then that 1 begins to add onto itself several times over, which results in a Kamehameha. Hey, on that note, should Revived Cell be downgraded?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Agree with op as well as that was my stance in the previous thread.

It's case by case; we usually scale Ki blasts to physical stats in Dragon Ball since they share the same UES but exceptions are Final Attacks that drain most if not all their stamina to the point of being reverted until they get replenished. And it's especially calcs coming from suicide attacks that would not scale to physicals.

I had stated as much but no technigue shown here is like that. Roshi had already fought for a long time and even after shooting the kamehameha he was not dead tired albeit very exhausted. However Tien had strenght remaining after and he had already fought for quite a while with goku which does show that his power was not merely spended by the kikoho so there is no argument for him not scaling to it. He also didn't use his lifeforce to power the move. So I would like your opinion as to why he would or wouldn't scale.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

lemme just sneak back in here.
Normal Ki blasts are merely physical manifestations of Ki. See "Videl Learns to Fly".
The Kamehameha was designed to condense Ki into a single point, which significantly increases the user's power beyond their normal limits.

With the example that KingTempest presented, where Goku managed to pierce through Fusion Zamasu with a Kamehameha in Super Saiyan Blue, that Kamehameha needed to exceed Goku's normal strength by, at the very least, tenfold, as per his later fight with Zamasu in Perfected Blue. With Cell, according to the Daizenshuu 7, its Barrier can cancel out attacks half its strength, which means that the Instant Kamehameha needed to exceed Goku's normal strength by two-times. Same as with Raditz, his Power Level multiplied by over two-times.

Like, if Goku wraps Ki around his fist and delivers an Energy Punch or shoots a basic blast, then his strength is 1. But if he decides to gather up large amounts of Ki and concentrate all of his Ki into a single attack, then that 1 begins to add onto itself several times over, which results in a Kamehameha. Hey, on that note, should Revived Cell be downgraded?

So would he concentrating his whole ki into his fist give us a 20 times higher fist? Because I don't know kamehameha are really huge and it's not exactly effective as a piercing technigue which is what you are arguing.

 

[Huesito88]

"With Cell, according to the Daizenshuu 7, its Barrier can cancel out attacks half its strength, which means that the Instant Kamehameha needed to exceed Goku's normal strength by two-times."

Wait are you trying to argue that since Cell didn't active the perfect barrier that the Instant Kamehameha wave must be stronger than it?

 

[Damage3245]

Like, if Goku wraps Ki around his fist and delivers an Energy Punch or shoots a basic blast, then his strength is 1. But if he decides to gather up large amounts of Ki and concentrate all of his Ki into a single attack, then that 1 begins to add onto itself several times over, which results in a Kamehameha. Hey, on that note, should Revived Cell be downgraded?

Yeah... The people who claim that all Ki attacks should by default scale to the user's physical stats makes me wonder if they remember that time where Vegeta couldn't do a thing to Perfect Cell by himself but with his Final Flash he could actually have killed him.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Yeah... The people who claim that all Ki attacks should by default scale to the user's physical stats makes me wonder if they remember that time where Vegeta couldn't do a thing to Perfect Cell by himself but with his Final Flash he could actually have killed him.

I had brought it up, DDM brought it up. There are moves which we can see don't scale but they are evident. Kamehameha is not one of them. Final flash is one because Vegeta was charging for a whole episode, Spirit bomb is one, Full power Kikoho which wasn't used here is one, final explosion is one, Kienzan is one and many others which are generally shown to either kill the user or leaving them in an utterly exhausted state and are used as a final desperation move. You could argue that special beam cannon is one except piccolo could shoot two despite already having fought for quite some time with raditz but it does have piercing properties.

But again most Ki attacks scale to their users yes. There are exceptions but they are evident.

 

[Damage3245]

I had brought it up, DDM brought it up. There are moves which we can see don't scale but they are evident. Kamehameha is not one of them. Final flash is one because Vegeta was charging for a whole episode, Spirit bomb is one, Full power Kikoho which wasn't used here is one, final explosion is one, Kienzan is one and many others which are generally shown to either kill the user or leaving them in an utterly exhausted state and are used as a final desperation move. You could argue that special beam cannon is one except piccolo could shoot two despite already having fought for quite some time with raditz but it does have piercing properties.

Max Power Kamehameha is one of them.

"or leaving them in an utterly exhausted state and are used as a final desperation move."

So, pretty much the Max Power Kamehameha then?

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

lemme just sneak back in here.
Normal Ki blasts are merely physical manifestations of Ki. See "Videl Learns to Fly".
The Kamehameha was designed to condense Ki into a single point, which significantly increases the user's power beyond their normal limits.

With the example that KingTempest presented, where Goku managed to pierce through Fusion Zamasu with a Kamehameha in Super Saiyan Blue, that Kamehameha needed to exceed Goku's normal strength by, at the very least, tenfold, as per his later fight with Zamasu in Perfected Blue. With Cell, according to the Daizenshuu 7, its Barrier can cancel out attacks half its strength, which means that the Instant Kamehameha needed to exceed Goku's normal strength by two-times. Same as with Raditz, his Power Level multiplied by over two-times.

Like, if Goku wraps Ki around his fist and delivers an Energy Punch or shoots a basic blast, then his strength is 1. But if he decides to gather up large amounts of Ki and concentrate all of his Ki into a single attack, then that 1 begins to add onto itself several times over, which results in a Kamehameha. Hey, on that note, should Revived Cell be downgraded?

"Normal Ki blasts are merely physical manifestations of Ki. See "Videl Learns to Fly"
Yes..., I never said the opposite.

"The Kamehameha was designed to condense Ki into a single point, which significantly increases the user's power beyond their normal limits."

Yes, this is the dormant ki they expel into a ki attack if they decide to that instead of just amping their first with this dormant power beyond the normal limits. With such Ki being UES scaling to their physical stats as already proven below.

By Enhancing their own ki, their physical stats increases in this case the durability. Vegeta in order to defeat freeza ask's krillin to inflict damage to him to the point he would be on the brick of death, but krillin says with the power he has, he cannot hurt Vegeta. Vegeta says he will lower his power so that krillin would be able to harm him. Emptying the ki from your body exposes the more fragile physical body. Emptying the ki from your body exposes the more fragile physical body. As they should atleast be able to tank what they can dish out. And we know that there are limits to physical statistics but can be overcome with ki and the higher the ki the higher the physical stats increases.
Also, in the vs wiki page for UES (UNIVERSAL ENERGY SYSTEM), ki for the dragon ball verse is listed as using this form of energy system.

Universal Energy System: Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would also scale to all other statistics. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells. ki amps physical stats. Recoome tanks vegeta full power ki attacks with no damage besides his clothes, yet goku with a single elbow one shots recoome. This same recoome can sneeze away a ki attack coming from potential unlocked gohan who has a power level of over 10 000 and makes vegeta think he his kakarot himself.

"With the example that KingTempest presented, where Goku managed to pierce through Fusion Zamasu with a Kamehameha in Super Saiyan Blue, that Kamehameha needed to exceed Goku's normal strength by, at the very least, tenfold, as per his later fight with Zamasu in Perfected Blue. With Cell, according to the Daizenshuu 7, its Barrier can cancel out attacks half its strength, which means that the Instant Kamehameha needed to exceed Goku's normal strength by two-times. Same as with Raditz, his Power Level multiplied by over two-times."

Yes because he uses his dormant ki into a ki wave attack (expel it) instead of amping his body with this same ki he used has a Kamehameha into a punch for example. I already gave 2 examples above. With ssj goku rushing his ki into his finger and through is entire body to enhance his durability and kid goku amping his fist with all his ki to pierce thew demon king piccolo. Nothing here that was presented, changes the universal energy system that is ki. Meaning this Ki/Energy attack would still scale to their physical stats such has AP , durability and striking strength.

"Like, if Goku wraps Ki around his fist and delivers an Energy Punch or shoots a basic blast, then his strength is 1. But if he decides to gather up large amounts of Ki and concentrate all of his Ki into a single attack, then that 1 begins to add onto itself several times over, which results in a Kamehameha.

No, he can simply also concentrate all his ki (instead of a Kamehameha wave for example) into a single punch as well as shown here.

.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Max Power Kamehameha is one of them.

It's a kamehameha so nope. The user can handily apply that ki to his stats. Except it wouldn't really be practical for Roshi to go there and fist the moon so he had to do it from afar.

Also for king tempest's points that the mountain and moon kamehameha are different they are not. They are the same thing down to the description. Roshi is even spend when using it. The reason it's stated twich is because the user is jackie chun thus Roshi and Jackie chun both used the same technigue.

Also the king Piccolo fist was a nice point to show that yes they can amp their physical power with the same result.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

Yeah... The people who claim that all Ki attacks should by default scale to the user's physical stats makes me wonder if they remember that time where Vegeta couldn't do a thing to Perfect Cell by himself but with his Final Flash he could actually have killed him.

That is why attack potency and universal energy system is a thing. Ki is listed as using UES in this wiki, meaning this ki attack that Vegeta used against cell would also scale to his physical stats such has ap, durability and striking strength has he can simply use this dormant ki he used for this final flash to amp his physicals stats on that level. I already went threw this above.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Isn't this, like, Appeal to Authority?
What if the standards are, y'know, wrong?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Isn't this, like, Appeal to Authority?
What if the standards are, y'know, wrong?

Doesn't matter if they're wrong or not. We abide by them. If you think they're wrong create a staff thread about it.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Isn't this, like, Appeal to Authority?
What if the standards are, y'know, wrong?

Make a CRT.

That is why attack potency and universal energy system is a thing. Ki is listed as using UES in this wiki, meaning this ki attack that Vegeta used against cell would also scale to his physical stats such has ap, durability and striking strength has he can simply use this dormant ki he used for this final flash to amp his physicals stats on that level. I already went threw this above.

Yeah nice points my previous examples were wrong. Final flash should not be in it.

 

[Damage3245]

Isn't this, like, Appeal to Authority?
What if the standards are, y'know, wrong?

It's worse than that, because I'm pretty sure the site's standards don't say we have to use the assumptions of a Universal Energy System. All of fiction doesn't fit neatly into a single box.

A characters normal Ki attacks could be comparable to their striking strength, but the user's stronger Ki attacks obviously do not. Hence why Goku can many times weaker than Fused Zamasu but still blow a hole through his chest with the Kamehameha.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

Isn't this, like, Appeal to Authority?
What if the standards are, y'know, wrong?

That is not an appeal to authority, I am using what was presented such has information's and ranking/scaling from this wiki.
If you wanted to change that, you will need a crt for such. Also I did prove and present above that they do have UES despite the fact that they are already listed as using it while you did not prove anything that would contradict (in the db page bottom note they also do prove that the higher the ki the higher the physicals statistis)

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

It's worse than that, because I'm pretty sure the site's standards don't say we have to use the assumptions of a Universal Energy System. All of fiction doesn't fit neatly into a single box.

A characters normal Ki attacks could be comparable to their striking strength, but the user's stronger Ki attacks obviously do not. Hence why Goku can many times weaker than Fused Zamasu but still blow a hole through his chest with the Kamehameha.

It's all a matter of ki. As long as they can do a ki attack that powerful they can use their body to the same result.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

(in the db page bottom note they also do prove that the higher the ki the higher the physicals statistis)

Yes, I know, I wrote the note.

It's all a matter of ki. As long as they can do a ki attack that powerful they can use their body to the same result.

Oh, Goku must just be stupid, then.
Why even the special techniques explicitly stated to increase his Ki when he is always that powerful?

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

It's worse than that, because I'm pretty sure the site's standards don't say we have to use the assumptions of a Universal Energy System. All of fiction doesn't fit neatly into a single box.

A characters normal Ki attacks could be comparable to their striking strength, but the user's stronger Ki attacks obviously do not. Hence why Goku can many times weaker than Fused Zamasu but still blow a hole through his chest with the Kamehameha.

It was never stated in the page to be an assumption. The page flat out list many verses that are examples of this Universal Energy System. Ki from dragon ball is including, magic from god of war is included etc...

That is why attack potency and universal energy system is a thing. Ki is listed as using UES in this wiki, meaning this ki attack that Vegeta used against cell would also scale to his physical stats such has ap, durability and striking strength has he can simply use this dormant ki he used for this final flash to amp his physicals stats on that level. I already went threw this above.

By Enhancing their own ki, their physical stats increases in this case the durability. Vegeta in order to defeat freeza ask's krillin to inflict damage to him to the point he would be on the brick of death, but krillin says with the power he has, he cannot hurt Vegeta. Vegeta says he will lower his power so that krillin would be able to harm him. Emptying the ki from your body exposes the more fragile physical body. Emptying the ki from your body exposes the more fragile physical body. As they should atleast be able to tank what they can dish out. And we know that there are limits to physical statistics but can be overcome with ki and the higher the ki the higher the physical stats increases.
Also, in the vs wiki page for UES (UNIVERSAL ENERGY SYSTEM), ki is listed as using this form of system.

Universal Energy System: Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would also scale to all other statistics. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

 

[SirAlex09]

I can't believe I am saying this but I agree with the disagreeing side.

Yes Dragonball characters can somewhat scale to their charged energy attacks (Exception: God Kamehameha, Final Flash , SPC ..)but this depends on their mastery of Ki control which is why Piccolo could block Goku's Kamehameha ( by using a comparable amount of ki to harden his skin).

This however don't apply to 22nd Budokai characters who don't even know how to sense Ki. They can merely discharge it

Edit: Kikoho should straight up be 5C. It's been stated to be the superior technique which implies bigger energy boost

 

[SlendVeny]

That is why attack potency and universal energy system is a thing. Ki is listed as using UES in this wiki, meaning this ki attack that Vegeta used against cell would also scale to his physical stats such has ap, durability and striking strength has he can simply use this dormant ki he used for this final flash to amp his physicals stats on that level. I already went threw this above.

UES doesn't just mean all your attacks scale to your best moves, that's stupid.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I agree with Tien's Kikoho being outright 5-C. There's no real reason to not pass that. However I feel like the arguments for 5-C physicals at the 22nd Budokai are a bit lacking so far.

Whether or not the characters have 5-C physicals can be concluded via one thing, I think, which is MAX Kamehameha vs Super Kamehameha. We have examples of characters of similar power taking a Super Kamehameha to the face and not being very damaged so if it can be demonstrated that the Super Kamehameha is superior to the MAX Kamehameha then we can argue that the physicals of Goku, Tien, Roshi, etc could scale to its 5-C potency. Until that can be reliably proven there isn't much else to say.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I can't believe I am saying this but I agree with the disagreeing side.

Yes Dragonball characters can somewhat scale to their charged energy attacks (Exception: God Kamehameha, Final Flash , SPC ..)but this depends on their mastery of Ki control which is why Piccolo could block Goku's Kamehameha ( by using a comparable amount of ki to harden his skin).

This however don't apply to 22nd Budokai characters who don't even know how to sense Ki. They can merely discharge it

Edit: Kikoho should straight up be 5C. It's been stated to be the superior technique which implies bigger energy boost

If that was the case every ki attack would have been a one hit KO then. Are you suggesting by that point everyone was relying on their natural bodies?

UES doesn't just mean all your attacks scale to your best moves, that's stupid.

Don't think that was claimed anywhere. Just that if it can be done with a beam it can be done with a fist or an object.

 

[Nierre]

Yeah, I agree with removing the possibly with Tien's Tri Beam. I agreed with possibly in the last thread, but it got closed before I could change my opinion on it.


As for the physicals, 100% agree with KingTempest. While I do believe in alot of aspects Ki=Physicals, I think that isn't the case here at all.


I mean a very obvious point is how terrified Roshi was when Tien was charging his Tri Beam, and Goku stated he would've died if he didn't dodge it. If his Ki scaled to his physicals, than Tien would be massively stronger than Goku, and would've killed Goku in one hit when they were fighting. Roshi would've been very obviously worried about the fight since he fought Tien - but he didn't show any worry.

So it's obviously disingenuous to try to apply UES in specific cases where the narrative points to a specific ki attack being far stronger than the user. Like in Tien's case here.


As for Full Power Max Kame Roshi, I'm neutral on that.

 

[Robo432343]

also dainzenshuu said they bust planet coz chain reaction

 

[Deceived3596]

Following.