I'm going to do bullet points because I don't want a mess of a reply.
- Tien and Roshi are even, Roshi managed to hurt Tien. Full Power Tien still got parried
This never happened. You can check your own colored scans, but in no point is Tien bruised.
Tien managed to draw blood from Roshi, however once at full power
The parry is not really that relevant, he parried a single punch and got immediately overwhelmed by Tien's superior speed, and strength!
It's clear that Tien is leagues above that version of Roshi, there is no point arguing otherwise. The fact they were even before either of them fought seriously is not a relevant factor, this usually happens at the beginning of most fights in classic before one side decides to fight seriously and overwhelm the opponent (Unless they're truly evenly matched)
In this case, Full Power Tien is more powerful than Roshi at that point, and the latter couldn't land a hit on him, it's clear that Roshi would need to use more power to match Tien. This is the only thing I'm arguing for!
P.S: I said Roshi managed to land blows on Tien due to superior experience and skill as a fighter (since we know Tien is faster)! Not that he managed to hurt him via superior skill! That statement wouldn't have made any sense
I never said he drew blood from him, ever.
I said he could hurt him.
In real life you can hurt somebody without making them bleed.
They knocked each other back and forth.
It's canon that he hits harder than that version of Roshi. Higher power level, implied to hit harder, etc.
Issue is that you're saying it's such a big gap that only way Roshi could've kept up is with his full power strength.
- Tien was not holding back physically, he was only holding back his abilities.
Once at full power;
It's evident he got faster, after all Roshi didn't even manage to keep up for more than one panel.
It's evident he got stronger, one attack made Roshi's nose bleed, none of the previous hits did that.
Both factors are
seen in the same page.
Saying Tien wasn't holding back physically is weird considering how well Roshi was doing at the beginning and how bad he was doing at the end
I might've misinterpreted that one so please correct me!
Once at full power, he instantly blinded Roshi.
Blinding Roshi made it harder for him to look, getting him tagged.
Getting hit by somebody doesn't mean they're faster than you I hope you know that.
On top of that, Roshi redirected his Kamehameha with his bare hands.
- Roshi says that he would probably lose, not definitely. You're ignoring the line. Tien never said he was going to win because of Roshi's performance
No, no, I acknowledge the line! Please calmly read my OP again, I said that the line informs us that Roshi would probably lose the battle had it kept going!
But, judging by how Tien was overpowering and nearly outspeeding Roshi at the very end, the line only makes sense if Roshi is including an eventual use of his full power, because if Roshi refused to use more power than he did during the tournament, defeat would be certain, not probable!
I'm using the line to argue that Tien scales to MAX Power Roshi, at least physically!
About the second part, you did say Tien knew about Roshi not going all out, and still claimed he would have won. The only thing Tien could base himself off is the very fight they had! It can only be about Roshi's performance in the ring, and even acknowledging his eventual full power.
Roshi later confirms that his assumption is likely true, so there is no point in arguing that imo
That is just headcanon.
They way they word it is that if Roshi kept fighting how he was, he would've lost.
On top of that, Roshi does not utilize his physicals for his Full Power form pre-Z. At all.
The enhanced muscles it there for the sole purpose of the backlash from the stronger kamehamehas that he uses against them.
- Tien was not talking about MAX Power Kamehameha when he said he wasn't at full power.
No one said that.
Backup argument in case you say "the full power he's referring to could mean the max power kamehameha"
...
so wait...
when he fires the original kamehameha...
like back on frypan..?
so wait. Goku and Yamcha are equal in power to the kamehameha that boomed frypan... which is
weaker than the Max Power Kamehameha?
- You shouldn't assume that every statement is referring exclusively to AP, there's speed and skill.
I think you'd have a hard time arguing that Tien is more skilled than Master Roshi. Even then, that's not the point, I'm saying it should include physical strength because Tien often relies on it to fight, as well as Master Roshi!
Of course techniques would play a major part, but I'm including physicals, not making it all about 'em! Ah, and of course, as a UES, if Tien is faster, he is probably stronger and more durable as well.
Everybody relies on Physical strength to fight, but we see that rarely people end up overcoming fights with just physical strength.
Tien after saying "full power" just blinded Roshi and cheap shotted him.
PSST, THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT SECTION OF THE RESPONSE.
- MAX Power Kamehameha is only said to be used at Chapter 51, so Chapter 14's isn't a MAX Power Kamehameha. MAX Power Kamehameha is referred as a technique. There is no evidence that Super Kamehameha is stronger than MAX Power Kamehameha.
You're missing the point.
I do have evidence that MAX Power Kamehameha is just a regular Kamehameha. The Daizenshuu 7 also often refers to mundane variations as "it's own technique", as I'll show you below
- I wouldn't say it's fair to use the fact Daizenshuu refers to MAX Power as a technique as an argument, when the guide goes as far as listing a mispronunciation of "Kamehameha" as it's own separate technique. I believe the point is null
False equivalence. They weirdly put it as a completely separate technique from the Kamehameha cause technically it is the same Kamehameha but different naming for it (just like the Galick Gun, which is stated multiple times to be just like the Kamehameha).
On top of that, they say the Max Power Kamehameha is noted as a special version under, just like the Super Kamehameha.
- I'll be listing examples of the Moon-Busting Kamehameha being listed as a regular Kamehameha:
- During Daizenshuu 2: Story Guide, the MAX Power Kamehameha is not listed as a new version of the technique at all, as you can see in the Special Attacks section. You can see that it's not listed as a new technique during the 21st Budokai Tenkaichi.
- Super Kamehameha, however, is listed as a stronger version of the Kamehameha, it includes the one used as 21st Budokai that shattered the moon since it was all bundled up in the same category
- Dragon Ball: Bouken Special cites the Kamehameha that destroyed the moon as a normal Kamehameha. Translation.
- Daizenshuu again cites the moon busting Kamehameha as just a Kamehameha.
- El Manga Legendario, the "spanish guide I love" also lists Roshi's moon busting wave as a regular Kamehameha. Translation.
- Dragon Ball: Bouken Special again explains that the MAX Power Kamehameha is just the maximum output of the regular version of the technique. Translation.
All your arguments showed honestly is that it's just a kamehameha, but much stronger.
That's the same as the super kamehameha, a kamehameha, but much stronger. That's even what Goku said when he was doing the Super Kamehameha.
The point is that Roshi's regular kamehamehas wouldn't scale to that at all, neither would anyone else.
On top of that, it not being showed in the special attacks section for D2 wouldn't... make it not a special attack.
They just showed arbitrary techniques and called em special attacks.
They sent Goku's "Kamehameha deflection"... which is just a regular Kamehameha... used to deflect another.
They didn't send the instant transmission kamehameha in there either. That's the same too?
It's in the Special Attack Section for Daizenshuu 7, that's fine enough.
- "misuse the definition of tank"
Semantics, my point is that Goku can take attacks from Raditz despite the fact he had a higher power level than his own Super Kamehameha wave. That much is true, and goes to show that Goku's physicals aren't 3 whole tiers below his Ki Wave.
The way you say it is as if it isn't too far off, when narrative and implications show that there are.
All cause you have a higher power level doesn't mean that you'd get a hole blasted through you every time somebody stronger than you touches you.
Regardless, w/e
- Some examples of Kamehameha being a finishing move/harming high tier opponents
Using regenerative opponents is very dishonest because more often than not they can take attacks from people of much lower caliber and still get a piece of themselves taken off just because they can regenerate, Buu is the worst offender of this trope.
But still I don't think your examples outweight mine, we have evidence on both sides, situations where a wave is not enough to kill someone, and the opposite.
...what
you do realize owning regeneration doesn't mean you have bad durability right?
And no, if they get pieces of their body chunked off, then they scale. That's how it works.
Nobody lobs off pieces of Buu and is far weaker.
On top of that, I didn't just name their feats of getting their bodies destroyed, I named their durability feats.
Well, I'm trying to debunk the three tier gap. I am satisfied with 10x, so this is not really a threat to me.
MAX Power Roshi's physicals are not High 8-C.
I'd say it's "at most 10x".
MAX Power Roshi is stronger than regular Goku, who is relative to regular Roshi.
Quick point.
Full Power Roshi doesn't utilize any physicals until Super.
Full Power Roshi is only activated for the drawback of the Kamehameha.
So all this "Full Power Roshi's physicals"... they
don't exist.