Dragon Ball: Tien and Co back to 5-C (But I win this time)

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

This is a re-attempt of this. And a direct refutation of this.

I won't be too long, I'll objectively prove Tien should be 5-C and there is nothing y'all can do about it.​

---

EDIT:
TL;DR: 23rd Budokai Yamcha is 5-C, despite having a power level of 177, so Tien with a power level of 180 should scale to him. That's it.

Tien surpassed trained Master Roshi​

You all know and love this argument. After Roshi resigned from his fight against Tien, he admitted he would have lost had the fight kept going.

This proves Tien would have won, and thus have surpassed Roshi.

"B-B-But Max Power-"

Shut it. Roshi had a power level of 139 against Tien, who had a power level of 180. You would have a hard time arguing Roshi can bridge the gap between them with his Max Power Form.

And NO. His power level isn't "actually higher", the Daizenshuu NEVER STATES A POWER LEVEL OF A CHARACTER IN A RELAXED STATE. This is Base Roshi's FULL POWER. Frieza is the exception because his Max Power is a different form. It isn't 180 either. This Weekly Jump Issue has SEVERAL CONTRADICTIONS with the story.
As noted by @Nullflowerblush, whose comment I lost, and later by me.

• Mr Popo: Has a power level of 1030 despite the fact Kami is stated to be superior to him
• Kami: Has a power level of 220, contradicting how he was stronger than the Goku who beat King Piccolo (260)
• Roshi: Roshi has a power level of 180, contradicitng his 139 on the Daizenshuu (which has a much higher authority)
• Korin: Korin being at 190, higher than Goku's 180, when in fact Goku was stated by Korin himself that he has surpassed him.

So, no, this source is awful and shouldn't be used.

So yeah, Tien greatly surpasses Roshi's base state and it's impossible for you to argue his Max Power would've bridged the gap. Even so, this is not even the version of Roshi that needs to be surpassed.

---

22nd BT Master Roshi is not the point here​

In fact, isn't 21st BT Master Roshi the one who destroyed the moon? You know, the one with a much lower power level as Roshi was constantly training to catch up to the newer Generation after a three year timeskip. So if you had a problem arguing that 22nd Roshi with a BP of 139 can reach 180 BP with his Max Form,
How are you going to argue that 21nd BT Roshi, who was equal to Goku when he had far less than half his current strength in 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi, can reach 180 by going Max Power? That's your burden of proof. In fact, even before the three-year timeskip Goku was stronger than Roshi.

"Well, the Max Power just multiplies Roshi's power"
Nope. As Vegeta said, no one can just multiply their strength. That's why Kaioken was a novelty.

---

A Battle Power of 180 is objectively enough for 5-C​

Now this one is interesting. Even if the rest doesn't convince you, this should.

So, as said in the past, all of Roshi's students surpassed him. There's no cutting corners here, this statement NEEDS to be enough to surpass his 5-C feat done by a much weaker version of himself. To further prove this, Yamcha is able to impress Kami in disguise, who is MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger than Son Goku who defeated King Piccolo. Yamcha took several blows from Kami, and even managed to injure his face with Sokidan. There's no denying this.

This version of Yamcha scales to the full 5-C yield of 21st Budokai Roshi's Kamehameha. Here's where the problem arrives.

This Yamcha that managed to impress, injure and take blows from a "far higher than 5-C" character, had a power level inferior to Tien and Son Goku at the 22nd Budokai, only 177 even after a 5-year timeskip, meaning it was even less against Kami... Yet you want to argue Tien and Goku at 180 wouldn't scale to 21st Budokai Roshi? Like for frick's sake.

EDIT: IN FACT, 23RD BUDOKAI YAMCHA IS 5-C, HOW INTERESTING?


This proves in an objective way that anyone with a power level close to 180 should scale to Max Power Roshi from the 21st Budokai Tenkaichi.

Who scales:

• Tien Shinran (Self-Explanatory)
• Son Goku (Self-Explanatory)
• Master Roshi; 22nd Budokai (He can fight Tien to some extent)
• Yamcha; 22nd Budokai (He can give Tien trouble)
• Krillin; 22nd Budokai (Is "about as good as Yamcha")
• Chaotzu (About Krillin's level)

Let's not waste any time....

Agree: @Killerdrone123, @CloverDragon03, @TheGreatBanana, @Da3ggman, @LordTracer, @DarkDragonMedeus, @Greatsage13th, @SlendVeny, @Fastestthingalive50, @Crobatman44, @KingNanaya, @Accelerated_Evolution, @KLOL506, @Serlock_Holmes, @Starbrand_Fan, @Spectra_Schiffer, @Golden_Void, @Damage3245
Neutral:
Disagree: @Ednaxel2

​

 

[Killerdrone123]

I agree

 

[Damage3245]

Tien surpassed trained Master Roshi​

You all know and love this argument. After Roshi resigned from his fight against Tien, he admitted he would have lost had the fight kept going.

This proves Tien would have won, and thus have surpassed Roshi.

That version of Roshi is only City Block level, so Tien himself would only need to be City Block level to defeat him.

"B-B-But Max Power-"

Shut it. Roshi had a power level of 139 against Tien, who had a power level of 180. You would have a hard time arguing Roshi can bridge the gap between them with his Max Power Form.

And NO. His power level isn't "actually higher", the Daizenshuu NEVER STATES A POWER LEVEL OF A CHARACTER IN A RELAXED STATE. This is Base Roshi's FULL POWER. Frieza is the exception because his Max Power is a different form. It isn't 180 either. This Weekly Jump Issue has SEVERAL CONTRADICTIONS with the story.
As noted by @Nullflowerblush, whose comment I lost, and later by me.
So, no, this source is awful and shouldn't be used.

So yeah, Tien greatly surpasses Roshi's base state and it's impossible for you to argue his Max Power would've bridged the gap. Even so, this is not even the version of Roshi that needs to be surpassed.

It's not about Roshi's Max Power state; it's the about the fact that the version of Roshi that Tien may have defeated doesn't scale to Moon level except through a specific attack.

22nd BT Master Roshi is not the point here​

In fact, isn't 21st BT Master Roshi the one who destroyed the moon? You know, the one with a much lower power level as Roshi was constantly training to catch up to the newer Generation after a three year timeskip. So if you had a problem arguing that 22nd Roshi with a BP of 139 can reach 180 BP with his Max Form,
How are you going to argue that 21nd BT Roshi, who was equal to Goku when he had far less than half his current strength in 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi, can reach 180 by going Max Power? That's your burden of proof. In fact, even before the three-year timeskip Goku was stronger than Roshi.

"Well, the Max Power just multiplies Roshi's power"
Nope. As Vegeta said, no one can just multiply their strength. That's why Kaioken was a novelty.

Vegeta is not speaking from a position of authority there; we know of many characters who can increase their strength through various means.

And it's not just Roshi's Max Power form, it's the fact that he uses the Kamehameha which concentrates and amplifies the user's power.

A Battle Power of 180 is objectively enough for 5-C​

Now this one is interesting. Even if the rest doesn't convince you, this should.

So, as said in the past, all of Roshi's students surpassed him. There's no cutting corners here, this statement NEEDS to be enough to surpass his 5-C feat done by a much weaker version of himself. To further prove this, Yamcha is able to impress Kami in disguise, who is MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger than Son Goku who defeated King Piccolo. Yamcha took several blows from Kami, and even managed to injure his face with Sokidan. There's no denying this.

This version of Yamcha scales to the full 5-C yield of 21st Budokai Roshi's Kamehameha. Here's where the problem arrives.

This Yamcha that managed to impress, injure and take blows from a "far higher than 5-C" character, had a power level inferior to Tien and Son Goku at the 22nd Budokai, only 177 even after a 5-year timeskip, meaning it was even less against Kami... Yet you want to argue Tien and Goku at 180 wouldn't scale to 21st Budokai Roshi? Like for frick's sake.

EDIT: IN FACT, 23RD BUDOKAI YAMCHA IS 5-C, HOW INTERESTING?

Our profiles aren't necessarily objectively correct. Just because Yamcha is currently rated as 5-C doesn't mean it is correct.

Personally I don't think that Roshi's statement is objective proof that all of the fighters ordinary stats surpass his Max Power Kamehameha when there is room for interpretation, so I'm not in favor of this upgrade proposal.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

That version of Roshi is only City Block level, so Tien himself would only need to be City Block level to defeat him.

Our profiles aren't necessarily objectively correct.

It's not about Roshi's Max Power state; it's the about the fact that the version of Roshi that Tien may have defeated doesn't scale to Moon level except through a specific attack.

From a much weaker version of Roshi.

Vegeta is not speaking from a position of authority there; we know of many characters who can increase their strength through various means.

And it's not just Roshi's Max Power form, it's the fact that he uses the Kamehameha which concentrates and amplifies the user's power.

From a much weaker version of Roshi.

Our profiles aren't necessarily objectively correct. Just because Yamcha is currently rated as 5-C doesn't mean it is correct.

Personally I don't think that Roshi's statement is objective proof that all of the fighters ordinary stats surpass his Max Power Kamehameha when there is room for interpretation, so I'm not in favor of this upgrade proposal.

"Just because Yamcha is rated as 5-C doesn't mean he's 5-C"
Actual VSBW moment.
Too bad, Yamcha harmed a 5-C character with a lower power level, so they scale, you can't argue that.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The fact that at the time, no one was considered able to just multiply their power on the fly like this (according to Vegeta) also nukes the idea that Roshi's Kamehameha is somehow quadrillions (or more) of times stronger than his normal attacks in my eyes.

Quite frankly, I never thought that downgrade should've passed to begin with, so I'm obviously in favor of reverting things back to what I believe they should be.

 

[Damage3245]

"Just because Yamcha is rated as 5-C doesn't mean he's 5-C"
Actual VSBW moment.
Too bad, Yamcha harmed a 5-C character with a lower power level, so they scale, you can't argue that.

Yamcha harmed him with a surprise attack using a special move that his physicals don't necessarily scale to. Especially since he said that the minimal damage that Kami took from his attack meant that Yamcha never stood a chance.

Personally I would only rate Yamcha as being 5-C with this technique at best.

From a much weaker version of Roshi.

What about it?

 

[TheGreatBanana]

Let em cook.
I agree with the thread.

 

[Da3ggman]

Bro cooked fr

Count me as an agree

 

[LordTracer]

I was never in favor of the initial downgrade, so I absolutely agree with this thread.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Yamcha harmed him with a surprise attack using a special move that his physicals don't necessarily scale to.

it's flipping ki ball, Damage. The heck you mean "physicals don't necessarily scale to", at this point you're just denying UES for Dragon Ball altogether, because there is no reason for Yamcha to be unable to use that energy for physicals or defense. Bullshit.

Especially since he said that the minimal damage that Kami took from his attack meant that Yamcha never stood a chance.

Oh great argument!

Or that's what I would say if I was arguing Yamcha = Kami, which I'm not. I'm arguing Yamcha isn't <<<<<<<<<< quadrillion times < Kami.
He survived hits, damaged the dude, and was literally called Strong by a character that outscales 5-C Roshi by a landslide. Why the heck would Kami call this mf strong if he was so inconsequential to him? Be for real for once, PLEASE.

Personally I would only rate Yamcha as being 5-C with this technique at best.

Damage, not gonna lie, I'm getting really tired of this moving goalpost bullcrap that always happens when someone points out a contradiction in the profiles. Yamcha's 5-C, Tien scales above him, therefore he is 5-C

You can't just change Yamcha's rating on THIS thread, this stuff's currently approved so you will abide by the rules and acknowledge the fact Tien should scale above 23rd Budokai Yamcha.

 

[Damage3245]

@The_Yellow_Topaz I'm not arguing in favor of changing Yamcha's profile right now; just stating my view on it.

I'm voting diagree because I'm not convinced by your other arguments for Tien. I'm pretty sure you'll probably be able to get enough votes for this without me though.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I agree with the op obviously. This issue has been my single greatest disagreement with the wiki and the worst thing I have seen happen, while making zero sense given the context of the series. No matter what Roshi was surpassed by both Goku and Tien at that point. Thanks Topaz.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

@The_Yellow_Topaz I'm not arguing in favor of changing Yamcha's profile right now; just stating my view on it.

Okay???? Then what's the problem bro?

I'm voting diagree because I'm not convinced by your other arguments for Tien. I'm pretty sure you'll probably be able to get enough votes for this without me though.

How is Tien having a power level of 180 and being higher than Yamcha's 177 not a convincing argument? The upgrade is based on the current profiles, what's there to disagree here?
Are you saying Tien doesn't scale above 23rd Budokai Yamcha? Because if you accept this, you agree with the upgrade. You can't disagree based on a future revision that you may or may not do.

 

[TheGreatBanana]

Roshi is 5-C, characters surpassed him in raw stats, they should be 5-C. Kinda simple.

 

[Damage3245]

Roshi is 5-C, characters surpassed him in raw stats, they should be 5-C. Kinda simple.

That is what is being disagreed with, so not entirely that simple.

 

[SirAlex09]

Disagree: @Damage3245 (Of course he's here...)

No need to be rude

 

[TheGreatBanana]

That is what is being disagreed with, so not entirely that simple.

Nah it is, roshi uses big boom to destroy the moon, characters surpassed said roshi, characters can also use big booms, thus characters are 5-C.
It can't get much simpler than that.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Op, please calm down with the vote.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Imo I don't agree with the OP, have to disagree

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Op, please calm down with the vote.

No need to be rude

Screw this. Damage seems to reject premises based on nothing but his personal stance, there's no objectivity behind his voting unless it's a downgrade thread. He now rejects Tien scaling to 5-C via Yamcha because he thinks Yamcha shouldn't be 5-C, something he has no saying on in my thread.

I should remove his vote entirely, but I'm still giving him the illusion that his vote had any solice to it. I have every right to complain about Damage's modus operandi. I'll not remove my comment.

 

[Damage3245]

@The_Yellow_Topaz We can disagree on a number of issues and topics, but it doesn't hurt to be polite and civil about it.

For what it's worth, my initial evaluation was to disagree with it but I think you've made a decent point with the Yamcha argunment which is a new argument compared to the rest of the OP. Not enough to entirely convince me in favor of the proposal, but I'll change my vote to Neutral.


If a staff member isn't convinced by your argument, the response shouldn't be to insult them or to discard their vote; just get other staff members involved and your thread will likely get passed.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

shouldn't be to insult them

That's a stretch, I expressed distaste for your methods, at worst.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Personally I would only rate Yamcha as being 5-C with this technique at best.

His physicals should 100% downscale. You realize that like 3x multiplier techniques are ultimate trump cards later on? All of this stuff about "5-C with certain techniques" requires context to be completely pulled from the series, and people being given amps they never ever ever have been able to achieve. at worst, they would have to have some sort of a high 6-A+ downscale, but even then that's very iffy, and an insane stretch.

So basically, all of this stuff about "Multi-City block level, 5-C with certain attacks" makes no actual sense within the series if you apply context to it. No one should have techniques which amp them more than Kaioken or super saiyan.

 

[Damage3245]

That's a stretch, I expressed distaste for your methods, at worst.

Fair, I was speaking more generally there. I wasn't insulted by your comment in the OP but I did think it was unnecessary.

His physicals should 100% downscale. You realize that like 3x multiplier techniques are ultimate trump cards later on? All of this stuff about "5-C with certain techniques" requires context to be completely pulled from the series, and people being given amps they never ever ever have been able to achieve. at worst, they would have to have some sort of a high 6-A+ downscale, but even then that's very iffy.

So basically, all of this stuff about "Multi-City block level, 5-C with certain attacks" makes no actual sense within the series if you apply context to it. No one should have techniques which amp them more than Kaioken or super saiyan.

To be real, no matter how you slice it you will end up with inconsistencies one way or the other no matter what your preferred powerscaling method is.

We get scenarios where characters can train for years and not change in power all that much, and then those same characters may train for months and get billions of times stronger.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

To be real, no matter how you slice it you will end up with inconsistencies one way or the other no matter what your preferred powerscaling method is.

None of this stuff produces inconsistencies, Damage. This isn't about "prefered powerscaling method"

We get scenarios where characters can train for years and not change in power all that much, and then those same characters may train for months and get billions of times stronger.

This got nothing to do with understanding that characters don't have techniques which are better amps than these super saiyan forms. It just doesn't work like that within the series. Now, for the training stuff, that's irrelevant to the topic at hand, since that doesn't give them multipliers like this.

 

[Crobatman44]

Agreed with the thread and Upgrade,at and at worst the characters physicals should not have such a massive distance from their strongest attacks anyway.

 

[KingNanaya]

I agree

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

I agree

 

[Damage3245]

@The_Yellow_Topaz Still keeping myself neutral but just one thought;

If Yamcha's power level was only 177 in the Saiyan Saga, then the statement of Roshi's students surpassing him seems unlikely to refer to raw power if Roshi himself had a power level of 180 at the time.

If Yamcha had surpassed Roshi in power level, then shouldn't he have been higher than 180?

(Be gentle, in case I'm misremembering something)

 

[KLOL506]

Count me in for agreeing with the OP. I never agreed with the premise of the downgrades to begin with (Let alone the speed downgrades or the downgrade thread that ddin't have Super-Perfect Cell be 4-B all-round).

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

@The_Yellow_Topaz Still keeping myself neutral but just one thought;

If Yamcha's power level was only 177 in the Saiyan Saga, then the statement of Roshi's students surpassing him seems unlikely to refer to raw power if Roshi himself had a power level of 180 at the time.

If Yamcha had surpassed Roshi in power level, then shouldn't he have been higher than 180?

(Be gentle, in case I'm misremembering something)

Roshi's PL is 139, Tien is the one with a PL of 180

 

[Damage3245]

Roshi's PL is 139, Tien is the one with a PL of 180

He was 139 during the 21st and 22nd Budokais, but by the time of the 23rd Budokai (where he gave the statement of his students surpassing him), he had a power level of 180 according to an issue of Weekly Shōnen Jump.

EDIT: After re-checking the OP, I see that Topaz is arguing for the WSJ power levels to be inconsistent and shouldn't be used.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

He was 139 during the 21st and 22nd Budokais, but by the time of the 23rd Budokai (where he gave the statement of his students surpassing him), he had a power level of 180 according to an issue of Weekly Shōnen Jump.

The Weekly Shōnen Jump ain't really a reliable source, we've disregarded it a bunch of times already

Kami (220) is portrayed as weaker than Demon King Piccolo (260); he is is far stronger than Goku.
Raditz (1,500) is equal to the Saibamen ("over 1,200").
Mr. Popo (1,030) is nearly as powerful as Raditz and, yet, is Kami's inferior.
Korin (190) is stronger than Pre-Ultra Divine Water Goku (180), apparently.
Master Roshi dropped from 180 to 139, and Pre-Kami Training Yamcha (177) is weaker than the former Roshi, despite surpassing said Roshi five years earlier.
The Earthlings, like Krillin (206), had only surpassed Kami after their training in-prep for the Saiyans, except for Tien (250), a natural prodigy.
Demon King Piccolo is far stronger than all of the Pre-Training Earthling Z-Fighters (except Tien), but Krillin fought back against the much stronger Piccolo?

 

[Damage3245]

The Weekly Shōnen Jump ain't really a reliable source, we've disregarded it a bunch of times already

I know. Edited my post.

 

[DaReaperMan]

(Be gentle)

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

The OP makes sense to me

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

I agree

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

While I do have some knit picks and a lot of PL statements are indeed not too reliable; however, I do agree that everyone should upscale from how strong Roshi was when he did the 5-C feat. Even Master Roshi, who was stated to have trained to get significantly stronger at that point admits nothing in his arsenal would get him a win against Tien or Goku.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Count me in for agreeing with the OP. I never agreed with the premise of the downgrades to begin with (Let alone the speed downgrades or the downgrade thread that ddin't have Super-Perfect Cell be 4-B all-round).

I'll probably make a thread on that later on, cause that Super-Perfect cell non-4-B thread is one of those times where people miss context. It was like they'd never heard the idea of a downscale. IDK how they thought having cell be 1000x with a kamehameha was reasonable

 

[Golden_Void]

Agree