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Tien and co. back to 5-C (Dragon Ball Revision)

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Roshi saying he'd be beaten in a tournament fight, is not him saying that Tien outclases him in every possible aspect.
But Tien can't be, again, literally millions of times below Roshi's max power. The "surpassing" statements are still very much relevant.
I'm not trying to remove the 5-C rating completely...
Yeah, but saying it's not supported by narrative is really not correct.
 
No one in this thread is coming even close to saying that skinny Roshi's physicals are as strong as his Buff form. We're arguing Tien is stronger than Buff Roshi.
We don't even know if buff Max Power Roshi can fight effectively at all in early Dragon Ball, or if his muscle mass would inhibit his fighting. We only see him use the form for his most powerful Kamehameha which immediately uses up all of his Ki and drains him almost completely.

But Roshi who did the moon busting is far below both tien and goku and the roshi that fought them. Literally everyone of the three beats him easily as Goku and Tien can tango with a trained Roshi. So saying that a prior Roshi somehow has power that people that surpass later even stronger Roshi don't scale to is weird given how Dragonball operates.
Not everyone agrees with this.


Trained Roshi > Skinny Roshi.

That's it.

It's not: Trained Roshi > previous Max Power Roshi.
 
We don't even know if buff Max Power Roshi can fight effectively at all in early Dragon Ball, or if his muscle mass would inhibit his fighting. We only see him use the form for his most powerful Kamehameha which immediately uses up all of his Ki and drains him almost completely.


Not everyone agrees with this.
Because we don't believe Korin and Roshi himself compared them to Roshi's power. But especially Korin's statement is pretty clear. Noone would use far surpass if they didn't compare to the whole value. Imagine him saying Goku has far surpassed 1% of Roshi's power....so is that a 2% or a 3%? It wouldn't make sense if he didn't compare it to Roshi's full strenght and Roshi later verified that he has been probably left behind aka that is irrelevant as he is and now needed to train.
 
No one in this thread is coming even close to saying that skinny Roshi's physicals are as strong as his Buff form. We're arguing Tien is stronger than Buff Roshi.
But Roshi who did the moon busting is far below both tien and goku and the roshi that fought them. Literally everyone of the three beats him easily as Goku and Tien can tango with a trained Roshi. So saying that a prior Roshi somehow has power that people that surpass later even stronger Roshi don't scale to is weird given how Dragonball operates.
Roshi going all out without being in his Muscle state had a PL of 180 same as Goku and tien.... and also thoughts on the rest of what I said like yall genuinely have to understand no one is getting rid of tier 5 db. Also Topaz can you make one big summary post to summarize all of your points it doesn't matter if ya need people to help or not do what ya gotta do I just need one big post so i can definitively see all of what you have to say cause this thread will go on like 4 pages 😭😭
 
We don't even know if buff Max Power Roshi can fight effectively at all in early Dragon Ball
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Yeah... The people who claim that all Ki attacks should by default scale to the user's physical stats makes me wonder if they remember that time where Vegeta couldn't do a thing to Perfect Cell by himself but with his Final Flash he could actually have killed him.
I wouldn't use that as the best example given that durability can also drop if distracted and or if letting their guard down to toy with their opponents, Perfect Cell is stated who could outright tank that and Goku's Instant Transmission Kamehameha if he was serious. Though I do get what you're saying at least.
 
I wouldn't use that as the best example given that durability can also drop if distracted, Perfect Cell is stated who could outright tank that and Goku's Instant Transmission Kamehameha if he was serious. Though I do get what you're saying at least.
Fair, but Cell wasn't distracted in the scene that I mentioned.
 
Read through all of this. So if I understand correctly, MAX Kamehameha is just the basic Kamehameha at full power and the Super Kamehameha is an enhanced version of the technique, and based on previous scans Piccolo Junior (who is around Goku's level) managed to endure a Super Kamehameha and come out of it without a lot of damage? As in:
  • Super Kamehameha is a superior version of Kamehameha and is shown to multiply the user's power level by around 3x (Against Raditz)
  • MAX Kamehameha is just the full power of the basic Kamehameha
  • Roshi blew up the moon with a full power basic Kamehameha
  • Piccolo physically handles the power of Super Kamehameha from Goku despite being around Goku's power
Which all implies that the physical stats of the user are not that much lower than their usage of MAX Kamehameha, let alone Super Kamehameha. Meaning they should scale to a similar level, close enough that Roshi could endure his own MAX Kamehameha in the 21st Budokai. In other words:
  • Super Kamehameha (3x Goku's Power) > MAX Kamehameha (Less than 3x Roshi's power)
Then on top of all that, Roshi's power was apparently 139 at the 22nd Budokai and 180 with the Kamehameha, equal to Goku and Tien's base powers at the 22nd Budokai.

At this point I don't see why I wouldn't agree with the upgrade. It's clear that the user's physicals aren't dramatically lower than the Kamehameha's power, close enough that the user can survive their own Kamehameha if fired back at them.
Teen Goku and Piccolo at least have more on screen demonstration of Super Kamehameha Wave scaling to durability given Piccolo No selled the attack, and Goku harms him with punches.
 
But an argument can be made that he was being cocky and didn't raise his defense as much as he could. Which would make sense given he knows he can just heal from it.
I mean, he definitely didn't raise his defense as much as he could because he wasn't using his full power. But Vegeta still couldn't harm him even with that is my point.
 
Fair, but Cell wasn't distracted in the scene that I mentioned.
But an argument can be made that he was being cocky and didn't raise his defense as much as he could. Which would make sense given he knows he can just heal from it.
I edited my post above to say that durability can also lower if a superior opponent is toying with the weaker opponent.
 
I mean there is zero reason to assume he can't fight. It's more probable that it's impractical because even the name of the form means that it's a massively costly form and can't be maintained in a fight for more than a few seconds so enemies that can be defeated in an easier way wouldn't push him to that form and enemies who are peers to him in this state would beat him due to him passing out from exhaustion within seconds. It's similar to the ssj3 problem except probably much worse or to Frieza who resorted to the form as a last resort but Roshi due to already being quite old and much weaker would fizzle out much faster.
 
Wasn't the whole point of cell doing that was to mock vegeta? Given that he was antagonizing him the entire fight and wanted to make him believe he was the shit, given the power difference, he could have easily taken that blast.
not really, at that point in time cell wanted nothing more than to test his perfect form, he was not really antagonizing vegeta at all, just mocking him for him to give his full power so that cell could completely test himself
 
Wasn't the whole point of cell doing that was to mock vegeta? Given that he was antagonizing him the entire fight and wanted to make him believe he was the shit, given the power difference, he could have easily taken that blast.
I believe we already made more than enough posts talking about this, so I'd prefer if we moved on.
 
If the MAX Power Kamehameha has a Power Level of 180 then Tien and Goku would be physically 5-C, no?
That's like the biggest point right now
 
Also arguing about physicals make no sense due to how goku killed king piccolo. He did shot a kamehameha to take off but after he imbued his fist with ki and Piccolo did the same with his hands. The fact that this succeeded when everything else failed does show how ki can be used to raise physicals to the same degree as ki blasts. It's just that ki blasts are much more effective due to being long ranged. Also again showing goku taking a serious ki blast from Piccolo and eventually killing him with his fist.
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Also arguing about physicals make no sense due to how goku killed king piccolo. He did shot a kamehameha to take off but after he imbued his fist with ki and Piccolo did the same with his hands. The fact that this succeeded when everything else failed does show how ki can be used to raise physicals to the same degree as ki blasts. It's just that ki blasts are much more effective due to being long ranged. Also again showing goku taking a serious ki blast from Piccolo and eventually killing him with his fist
Not everyone does this. They certainly don't do it all the time. Packing all of their Ki into one fist is a rare finishing move typically.
 
Also arguing about physicals make no sense due to how goku killed king piccolo. He did shot a kamehameha to take off but after he imbued his fist with ki and Piccolo did the same with his hands. The fact that this succeeded when everything else failed does show how ki can be used to raise physicals to the same degree as ki blasts. It's just that ki blasts are much more effective due to being long ranged. Also again showing goku taking a serious ki blast from Piccolo and eventually killing him with his fist.
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I agree 100% that King Piccolo and beyond is 5-C absolutely to all stats including physicals. But other staff have issues with 22nd Budokai era specifically. Because Roshi even with Max Power Kamehameha stated would do nothing against Old Piccolo yet Goku managed to finish off Youthful Piccolo by using his own Kamehameha that is far stronger than Roshi or Tien at that point and punched. And Newton's 3rd law also scales that to durability.
 
Not everyone does this. They certainly don't do it all the time. Packing all of their Ki into one fist is a rare finishing move typically.
Yes because as I have said it's impractical to do it and is used in very specific situations. But they can do it and they do it always to an extent to even stay relevant in physicals and not die like how Goku survived Piccolo's beam which used quite a lot of his ki. They just don't use all their ki like Goku did because if the attack fails they are both out and close to each other. Here's the image where Piccolo pants after the overextertion by the move.
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If the MAX Power Kamehameha has a Power Level of 180 then Tien and Goku would be physically 5-C, no?
That's like the biggest point right now
point is........do we know if the Max power kamehameha has that PL? not doubting it, but i don't think i saw an scan saying that
 
I agree 100% that King Piccolo and beyond is 5-C absolutely to all stats including physicals. But other staff have issues with 22nd Budokai era specifically. Because Roshi even with Max Power Kamehameha stated would do nothing against Old Piccolo yet Goku managed to finish off Youthful Piccolo by using his own Kamehameha that is far stronger than Roshi or Tien at that point and punched. And Newton's 3rd law also scales that to durability.
Yeah. King Piccolo arc stuff was never included as part of the proposals for downgrades. We're not touching that because the characters explicitly have the feats to support their ratings.
 
I agree 100% that King Piccolo and beyond is 5-C absolutely to all stats including physicals. But other staff have issues with 22nd Budokai era specifically. Because Roshi even with Max Power Kamehameha stated would do nothing against Old Piccolo yet Goku managed to finish off Youthful Piccolo by using his own Kamehameha that is far stronger than Roshi or Tien at that point and punched. And Newton's 3rd law also scales that to durability.
I was bringing it up because some people were saying that only after kami was ki used to raise physicals properly so I wanted to establish that even during the 22nd budokai ki was used to raise power.
 
I was bringing it up because some people were saying that only after kami was ki used to raise physicals properly so I wanted to establish that even during the 22nd budokai ki was used to raise power.
Who said that?
 
point is........do we know if the Max power kamehameha has that PL? not doubting it, but i don't think i saw an scan saying that
According to the TL, the 180 PL is either about his Moon Bust or is claiming he got stronger between the 22nd Ten. and fighting Daimao Piccolo, but as we know for certain Roshi’s power did not increase (it happens quite literally momentarily after the 22nd Ten.), it’s likely the former.

Edit: Also, Dai. 7 says that 22nd Ten. Roshi was at 139, which falls in line with his canon listing from Raditz Scouter, which makes sense as Roshi was not implied to have increased in power at any time post 22nd Ten.
 
Who said that?
In the first page that it was the purpose of Popo and Kami to teach goku how to use ki to increase his strenght and that's why they didn't agree with 5-C physicals.
According to the TL, the 180 PL is either about his Moon Bust or is claiming he got stronger between the 22nd Ten. and fighting Daimao Piccolo, but as we know for certain Roshi’s power did not increase (it happens quite literally momentarily after the 22nd Ten.), it’s likely the former.
And his basic power of 139 is quite lower than both Goku's and Tien's.
 
Seems to be from either daizenshuu or weekly jump. There is the wiki which collects them but their images don't open to me.
.....sorry, but where is this from? i would prefer to see the scan of the guide itself rather than someone talking about it
 
Gonna agree with topaz' line of reasoning, with roshi having a power level of 180 in his max power form, which is stated that tien would have beaten master roshi. It makes no sense for tien to be stated to be stronger than roshi, but not max power roshi, which naturally mean his Kamehameha wave also.
 
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