But Tien can't be, again, literally millions of times below Roshi's max power. The "surpassing" statements are still very much relevant.
Yeah, but saying it's not supported by narrative is really not correct.
We don't even know if buff Max Power Roshi can fight effectively at all in early Dragon Ball, or if his muscle mass would inhibit his fighting. We only see him use the form for his most powerful Kamehameha which immediately uses up all of his Ki and drains him almost completely.
Not everyone agrees with this.
Because we don't believe Korin and Roshi himself compared them to Roshi's power. But especially Korin's statement is pretty clear. Noone would use far surpass if they didn't compare to the whole value. Imagine him saying Goku has far surpassed 1% of Roshi's power....so is that a 2% or a 3%? It wouldn't make sense if he didn't compare it to Roshi's full strenght and Roshi later verified that he has been probably left behind aka that is irrelevant as he is and now needed to train.
Roshi going all out without being in his Muscle state had a PL of 180 same as Goku and tien.... and also thoughts on the rest of what I said like yall genuinely have to understand no one is getting rid of tier 5 db. Also Topaz can you make one big summary post to summarize all of your points it doesn't matter if ya need people to help or not do what ya gotta do I just need one big post so i can definitively see all of what you have to say cause this thread will go on like 4 pages
He said EARLY Dragon Ball, not Super.????????????????????
That's Dragon Ball Super.
We haven't seen the original scan for that point, so we can't confirm it.
It's the weekly shounen jump scan KingTempest provided.
I wouldn't use that as the best example given that durability can also drop if distracted and or if letting their guard down to toy with their opponents, Perfect Cell is stated who could outright tank that and Goku's Instant Transmission Kamehameha if he was serious. Though I do get what you're saying at least.
Fair, but Cell wasn't distracted in the scene that I mentioned.
Teen Goku and Piccolo at least have more on screen demonstration of Super Kamehameha Wave scaling to durability given Piccolo No selled the attack, and Goku harms him with punches.
But an argument can be made that he was being cocky and didn't raise his defense as much as he could. Which would make sense given he knows he can just heal from it.
I mean, he definitely didn't raise his defense as much as he could because he wasn't using his full power. But Vegeta still couldn't harm him even with that is my point.
I edited my post above to say that durability can also lower if a superior opponent is toying with the weaker opponent.
Hold on. You said this:
Your main point was that his muscles would inhibit him. Whether he is stronger in Super or not is unrelated to that.
not really, at that point in time cell wanted nothing more than to test his perfect form, he was not really antagonizing vegeta at all, just mocking him for him to give his full power so that cell could completely test himself
I believe we already made more than enough posts talking about this, so I'd prefer if we moved on.
Not everyone does this. They certainly don't do it all the time. Packing all of their Ki into one fist is a rare finishing move typically.
I agree 100% that King Piccolo and beyond is 5-C absolutely to all stats including physicals. But other staff have issues with 22nd Budokai era specifically. Because Roshi even with Max Power Kamehameha stated would do nothing against Old Piccolo yet Goku managed to finish off Youthful Piccolo by using his own Kamehameha that is far stronger than Roshi or Tien at that point and punched. And Newton's 3rd law also scales that to durability.Also arguing about physicals make no sense due to how goku killed king piccolo. He did shot a kamehameha to take off but after he imbued his fist with ki and Piccolo did the same with his hands. The fact that this succeeded when everything else failed does show how ki can be used to raise physicals to the same degree as ki blasts. It's just that ki blasts are much more effective due to being long ranged. Also again showing goku taking a serious ki blast from Piccolo and eventually killing him with his fist.
Yes because as I have said it's impractical to do it and is used in very specific situations. But they can do it and they do it always to an extent to even stay relevant in physicals and not die like how Goku survived Piccolo's beam which used quite a lot of his ki. They just don't use all their ki like Goku did because if the attack fails they are both out and close to each other. Here's the image where Piccolo pants after the overextertion by the move.
point is........do we know if the Max power kamehameha has that PL? not doubting it, but i don't think i saw an scan saying that
No we actually don't have one
Yeah. King Piccolo arc stuff was never included as part of the proposals for downgrades. We're not touching that because the characters explicitly have the feats to support their ratings.
I was bringing it up because some people were saying that only after kami was ki used to raise physicals properly so I wanted to establish that even during the 22nd budokai ki was used to raise power.
Who said that?
According to the TL, the 180 PL is either about his Moon Bust or is claiming he got stronger between the 22nd Ten. and fighting Daimao Piccolo, but as we know for certain Roshi’s power did not increase (it happens quite literally momentarily after the 22nd Ten.), it’s likely the former.
In the first page that it was the purpose of Popo and Kami to teach goku how to use ki to increase his strenght and that's why they didn't agree with 5-C physicals.
And his basic power of 139 is quite lower than both Goku's and Tien's.
.....sorry, but where is this from? i would prefer to see the scan of the guide itself rather than someone talking about it
